91 replies to this topic

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Okay guys, I've taken the Shadowcat into Solaris Skunk Werks, build it like shown on the front page of Wave III and was... pretty dissappointed.

I mean: Its not a bad mech, but it will have to compete against the Stormcrow which that mech simply can't.

Some examples of possible loadouts:
- 3 Med Pulse lasers + 2x SRM6 (2T ammo) without Artemis
- 3 Medlasers + 2x SRM6 (3T ammo) with Artemis
- 3 SRM4 (3 T ammo) + 2 Med Pulse lasers
- 2 ER LL + 2xSRM4 (1T of ammo)

... those are just some examples - but you may notice, that 11t of Pod space is even less than we have in the Adder.

Now, you may say: Hey, but it got Jump Jets and ECM!
Well, thats true, but those Jump Jets and ECM are used as a multiplicator for the mechs basic efficiency. If that basic efficiency of a mech is very bad, it won't become 'okay' just by ECM and Jump Jets. Esp, if it has to compete against the likes of Stormcrows or even the Nova.

Circling around those performance values, I found out, that this mech might perform well, if it could mount 6 Energy hardpoints and get rid of all the Jump Jets in the legs, leaving 1 fixed JJ in the left+right torso.

Then, and only then, this mech might be comparable with other mechs of its weight class.

So, I suggest the following changes:
- Make the Jump Jets in the legs dynamic ones, which can be taken out
- Change the following ominpod-hardpoints:
Prime left arm: 1 Energy --> 2 Energy
A left arm: 1 Energy --> 2 Energy
Prime right torso: 1 Energy --> 2 Energy
A right arm: 1 Energy --> 2 Energy

Whatever you do, you can only mount up to 6 energy weapons at max, which is in my opinion also pretty much the sweet spot for any mech on its maximum energy boating in terms of "feels good" amount.
Even the Arctic Cheetah got 6 Energy hardpoints, so lets just go with 6.

With that, this mech would be what I expect to be the MWO-variant of the Shadowcat.

Please PGI, adapt those values before you release this mech - you still have the chance. After release, its too late. We don't need another bad Clan mech for even less variety. We already have the running fridge, Gargoyle, Warhawk, Mist Lynx, Adder, Summoner and even the Mad Dog, which all are not or very badly used in terms of air time.

On that note, you could perform similar adaptions to the Executioner (and put the ability to change Ferro to Endo on top of it, thanks - it has to compete against the Daishi and you know how this will end with the current specs)

[Paigan]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 28 May 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

[...]
I mean: Its not a bad mech, but it will have to compete against the Stormcrow which that mech simply can't.

[...]

Apples and oranges.

Does the SCR have JJs?
Does the SCR have ECM?
Does the SCR have MASC?
Does the SCR have 7xB (just kidding )

No, it does not.
So they are definitely not direct competitors.

Does the SCR do some things better?
Of course it does (almost every mech does something better than all others).

That doesn't mean the Shadow Cat won't be a good mech.


Another example: Say you want to play Hellbringer Online (3x65t in a 240t drop deck).
What to choose as the 4th mech? SCR is not possible. Shadow Cat is.

Edited by Paigan, 28 May 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

How are you coming up with 11 tons? With max armor is should have 16 tons (really 15, because who isn't going to take ECM). Thats not really a lot, but for a 45 ton mech using clan tech its not bad either.

It won't compete with the Stormcrow for a direct combat role, but I can see it being useful in other ways thanks to all the toys it has.

Edited by Rouken, 28 May 2015 - 08:09 AM.

[Flutterguy]

On it's own it's probably ok. ECM makes it good. MASC makes it potentially amazing depending on how it's implemented.

[Alistair Winter]

Shadowcat is going to be yet another mech I try to keep close to its original vision (i.e. jump jetting gauss rifle stealth sniper) even though the game doesn't really encourage it and PGI clearly doesn't give a toss about it either.

MWO needs more ECM sniper mechs!

[o0Marduk0o]

The mech is fine and no more hardpoints are needed with the available free tonnage.

[Mcgral18]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 28 May 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

... those are just some examples - but you may notice, that 11t of Pod space is even less than we have in the Adder.

Same as the Badder. Half ton less when the Flamer gets removed.


2 LPLs, ECM, 3 DHS

2 LPLs, 6MGs, ECM

LPL, 2ERMLs, ECM, 17DHS (very cool running build)

3ERLL, ECM, 13DHS (unbearably hot loadout)

2MPLs, 3SSRM6


It will be somewhere between mediocre and alright. Scaling will make a difference. It will do long range pretty well, better than the Crow, since it has the high mounted hardpoints and the Jesus Box.

Fridge can have more firepower when laserboating, sad as it is, but this can be hull down.


UAC buffs might mean a UAC10, and if we can remove MASC, the semi stock build becomes viable; 2 ERMLs, Gauss+3 tons, ECM. 2 tons makes a big difference here.

[SaltBeef]

Would be nice if it could carry the Standard MW4 loadout. That was not bad but no ecm

[STEF_]

Largely it depends on how pgi implement MASC (how much speed does it add? is it removable?).

Anyway a shadowcat is a 45tonner, so it's quite difficult to compare it with a 55 tonner, that is also one of the trinity.

Since a possible deck is 3 hellbringers+45 tons, I have no doubts about what to bring in CW (if I'm dropping with 3 hellbringers)
Then, in solo/group que, a fast ecm mech can really be a hellish flanker, and a couple of builds suggested by McGral18 are very interesting in that role.

edit: also, we cannot forget it has high hardpoints

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 28 May 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Paigan]

I'm 90% sure it won't be removeable / addable for clans

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Well, the 11 tons were already with the additional DHS you need to have this thing halfway cool. Its just the overkill on stuff which make this mech worser than it should be, like 6 Jump Jets. Nobody needs 2 JJ, 2 are more than enough. Same goes with assault battlemechs with fixed JJ - they just destroy the mechs performance for close to no reason.

In the end, 1 Gauss + 2 Medlaser might be the best solution anyway, but I don't really like it. :/

[Templar Dane]

Shadowcat is 10 tons lighter, but it has jumpjets and ecm. If anything it competes against the ice ferret......and hands down wins that fight.

[Eyepop]

Eh, I'm most looking forward to playing it as a faster, more jumpy, more tanky BJ-A with MASC. 6 MG, 2 C-LPL, 2.5 tons of MG ammo.

It's in a just-fine place for a 45-ton mech.

Edited by Eyepop, 28 May 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Mcgral18]

lordtzar, on 28 May 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Shadowcat is 10 tons lighter, but it has jumpjets and ecm. If anything it competes against the ice ferret......and hands down wins that fight.

Actually, it doesn't.


Fridge laservomits better.

Silly, I know, but 5 ERMLs and 16 DHS, with a TC1 is a built the Cat can never do. While consistently running 142.

30 heat for 35 damage, with 16 heatsinks.
Best the Cat can do is 2 LPLs and a ERML with 12, without ghost heat. That's 36 heat for 33 damage.


The Cat severely lacks firepower, with fewer E hardpoints than the already hardpoint lacking lights.
It will do long range better; one of the best, likely (between hardpoints, ECM and JJs). But it will be pretty bad in a 1 VS 1 fight. A slightly hotter Arrow (while being faster, and less durable) is the other option, if you remove the Jesus Box.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 May 2015 - 10:20 AM.

[Templar Dane]

I was thinking the same. It can.......

DapperCat- mg + 2 big energy weapons
ShadowSplat
Sneaky Gauss
Poptart

I've seen people say 11 tons, 12 tons, and 16 tons of pod space. Which is correct?

[Eyepop]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

A slightly hotter Arrow (while being faster, and less durable) is the other option, if you remove the Jesus Box.

How is it less durable? The Arrow has to take an XL, and the ShadowCat can max out armor just fine, if it takes 2.5 tons of MG ammo. Unless you're talking quirks (+22 structure for Arrow), but that doesn't make sense since we don't know the SC's quirks.

Edited by Eyepop, 28 May 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[Mcgral18]

lordtzar, on 28 May 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

I was thinking the same. It can.......

DapperCat- mg + 2 big energy weapons
ShadowSplat
Sneaky Gauss
Poptart

I've seen people say 11 tons, 12 tons, and 16 tons of pod space. Which is correct?

17 stock, 16 max armour, 15 with Jesus Box.

Eyepop, on 28 May 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

How is it less durable? The Arrow has to take an XL, and the ShadowCat can max out armor just fine, if it takes 2.5 tons of MG ammo. Unless you're talking quirks (+22 structure for Arrow), but that doesn't make sense since we don't know the SC's quirks.

Arrow can STD just fine at max speed, and it gets 11 structure per ST.

[Templar Dane]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Actually, it doesn't.


Fridge laservomits better.

Silly, I know, but 5 ERMLs and 16 DHS, with a TC1 is a built the Cat can never do. While consistently running 142.

30 heat for 35 damage, with 16 heatsinks.
Best the Cat can do is 2 LPLs and a ERML with 12, without ghost heat. That's 36 heat for 33 damage.


The Cat severely lacks firepower, with fewer E hardpoints than the already hardpoint lacking lights.
It will do long range better; one of the best, likely (between hardpoints, ECM and JJs). But it will be pretty bad in a 1 VS 1 fight. A slightly hotter Arrow (while being faster, and less durable) is the other option, if you remove the Jesus Box.

An ERLPL is nearly the equivalent of two ERML. If all you care about are energy hardpoints, Scat can do 3 and 2 missile with ecm. So, like 2x LPL, 1x ML and a couple of SRMs.

While the scat's stuck with 3 tons worth of jumpjets, it's engine is 10 tons lighter and doesn't have any fixed heat sinks(ferret has 2).

[Eyepop]

Mcgral18, on 28 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Arrow can STD just fine at max speed, and it gets 11 structure per ST.

But you can't fit two LPL on the Arrow with a STD, so we're talking different builds. 6MG, 2 LPL Arrow

[MoonUnitBeta]

I'm excited.

I hope to make it my favorite mech beside my HBK-4G.

I hope i love masc and that it offers something unique with how the mech performs on the field. I like "dashing" or "charging" skills in other games. When PGI implements collisions, I'm interested to see if MASC will do some increased ram damage.