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Scale Of Battlemechs


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#21 Juodas Varnas

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 08:08 PM

View PostCSJ Ranger, on 02 June 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

The Original PGi Catapult left , resized of 10m (lenght of a M1 Abrams ~9,5m) in relation to a Crysis "Headless" Human (SDK Toll not found the head ) ,a Abrams and a Landcruiser from Crysis ...Problem by smaller Mechs ...new Running animations by High Speed .

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So it WASN'T just my imagination that ALL mechs are just waaaaay too big for the surrounding world.

#22 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 08:14 PM

In the moment ,im working with Cry3 SDK tool, to bring my Map Ideas to a Visual Content

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Map testvideo

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 03 June 2015 - 02:19 AM.


#23 Nightshade24

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 11:12 PM

View PostMazzyplz, on 31 May 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

what? people don't know the size of dinosaurs?
this is one of the most recognizable scenes in movie history from one of the most iconic movies

http://img4.wikia.no...assic-park1.jpg

i am pretty sure most people have an idea...


they have 400% more an idea of the size of t rex than of ANY battlemech. obviously, because battlemechs are not part of pop culture. so that's why i put the dino there and why it does help -



you do have a point with the little details going unnoticed, but why are the trees so big in the game?
there are very few cars as well. - the scale of things in viridian bog is a kick in the ***** - way to make us feel like a midget pgi!!!

i think for example if they could make the rocks smaller and the textures more grainy in canyon network, it would not feel like a human sized cliff...
you don't even need to put little cars in there, it could be barren as it is; just make the textures tile smaller... or do SOMETHING!!

Yes.

And that same movie a Raptor is nearly 6 times bigger then the largest species of raptor at the time... let me remid you, the "philo" we're all used to, is far from the largest...

Jurrasic park isn't famous for it's "accuracy" for size.

#24 Juodas Varnas

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 11:20 PM

View PostNightshade24, on 02 June 2015 - 11:12 PM, said:

Yes.

And that same movie a Raptor is nearly 6 times bigger then the largest species of raptor at the time... let me remid you, the "philo" we're all used to, is far from the largest...

Jurrasic park isn't famous for it's "accuracy" for size.

Aye.
Utahraptors are the largest dromeosaurs known. Velociraptors were one of the smallest, like the size of a turkey.

To be honest, the worst offender to me was the Dilophosaurus, which were REALLY small in the Jurassic Park movies. When in truth, they were one of the largest predators of its time and about 7 metres in length.

The dinosaur nerd in me, both hated and loved the movie.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 02 June 2015 - 11:21 PM.


#25 Nightshade24

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 11:38 PM

View PostJuodas Varnas, on 02 June 2015 - 11:20 PM, said:

The dinosaur nerd in me, both hated and loved the movie.

This sums up me and every other "Dino nerd"

#26 Haakon Magnusson

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 12:05 AM

Scale, yes, been a pet peewee for a long time.
I think the biggest issue is that map designers do not or are not allowed to put enough objects which remind us of the scale. Or then use too much artistic freedom and go for "alien world" feel, which is ok as long as you have elements to remind of scale.

Three most stereotypical objects that you can get scale from; humans, cars and trees (which are some widely known ones on planet earth; Pine/birch/palm maybe?)

Now on many maps we have these trees which are either weird alien (Canyon network as a good example) or gigantic (Viridian) which do not convey any recognisable scale and then worst of all, you are missing other indicators of size, Viridian bog I find to be worst offender, with absolutely no way of getting your sense of scale. You are just a small robot in a big jungle.

All in all, old maps of river city and forest colony have a good sense of scale, it's been generally downhill from there.
EDIT: On river city, speeding past the traffic lights... instant reminder of your size, very good stuff

Edited by Haakon Magnusson, 03 June 2015 - 12:07 AM.


#27 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 02:25 AM

With the enormous size of the mechs in MWO is indeed arise other problems, the mechs are more lighter targets in the distance (a 'Mech is so in 1000m still such a big target, as if he were really only in 500m)

The natural cover has to be unnaturally stretched upper,and the mechs are slower than in the real BT universe because a larger Mech can move slower than a smaller Mech, at the same speed, this but you'd have to humanoids Mech proper racing animations miss

and otherwise ... no warship port is designed for jumbo jets can land there, no submarine hangar is designed to allow therethrough driving tank or an aircraft carrier parked

Citys a dangerous Tank(mech)traps
Sewers, confusing terrain, where each little soldier with a mine or an inferno launcher becomes a deadly threat where mechs can be spilled from buildings or manholes in collapsing subway capture ...

translate from german
Mit der riesigen größe der mechs in MWO ergeben sich ja noch andere probleme, die Mechs sind größere leichtere Ziele in der Entfernung (ein Mech ist damit in 1000m noch so ein großes Ziel ,wie er er eigentlich nur in 500m wäre)

Die natürliche Deckung muss unnatürlich nach ober gestreckt werden, udn die Mechs sind langsamer als im realen BT Universum ,da ein größerer Mech sich langsamer fortbewegen kann,als ein kleinerer Mech, bei gleicher Geschwindigkeit, dazu müsste man aber den Humanoiden Mech richtige Renn-Animationen verpassen

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 03 June 2015 - 09:57 AM.


#28 RedDragon

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 08:42 AM

View PostMarack Drock, on 02 June 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

CityTech hasn't been renewed since the 1994 for one reason: It sucked and wasn't popular.

I have no idea where you are getting your information from. CityTech introduced all the rules for infantry, vehicles and urban warfare that are used until today. It wasn't continued because the whole game was in hiatus since the 90s. Today all the rules from CityTech are part of the Master Rules.

Again my question: Have you read any Battletech novel at all? They depict urban combat the same as it is played in the board game: You have some broad streets (yes, those are often made to allow mech movement, exactly like today where some main streets are to be used as dedicated passages for tanks in war time). And if you want to leave those streets, you can push through buildings, blow them up or jump over them.
And why would any sane citizen design a city for mech combat, basically screaming "Here, we have enough place for all of you, come to our city and battle it out!"?
Besides, urban combat above all means ambushes and infantry. And infantry won't just stand there in the open. By definition, urban combat means destruction. And anyone who would plan a city especially so mechs can battle more easily there would be an idiot.

If I can be bothered I will look up a urban fighting scene in one of the novels later, but I guess it is futile because your thinking seems to go "I think it is so, therefore it must be true." Or either you would have by now at least tried to get some real evidence from the lore. In the meantime, have an introduction directly from the latest rule book for urban warfare (highlighted by me):

Quote

The rampant destruction caused during the early Succession
Wars appalled even the most hardened soldiers. Until the Jihad,
recent decades saw the evolution of a common practice to avoid
combat in populated areas
, especially among the warrior Clans,
who consider the collateral damage caused by such battles
unacceptable. Despite this unwritten law, combat still had a
tendency to drift from the intended battlefield into urban areas.
There is also no shortage of less than noble commanders who set
ambushes in cities, counting on the unspoken truce in those areas
to offer an extra measure of surprise. The Jihad has opened up a
whole new chapter of brutal combat within cities.
Historically, the buildings and irregular terrain in urban areas
made it difficult for Combat Vehicles to successfully achieve their
objectives. Though ’Mechs have superior flexibility, cities still
complicate warfare in the thirty-first century. Battles fought in long,
narrow streets
filled with buildings that block line of sight, provide
enemy hiding places and offer limited protection from weapons
fire require a change in tactics and operations. In urban combat,
even conventional infantry may substantially damage a ’Mech.


Nothing in that text (or any other I have read so far) suggests that cities are built with mech combat in mind, quite the contrary.

#29 Tyrnea Smurf

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 11:05 AM

As the glory days of the Star League became a forgotten dream it would be likely that most urban areas which saw a lot of combat would be built/rebuilt with an eye toward bunkering, with most of the city scapes built underground wherever possible.

Theres not a lot of mention of that in the lore except where a planet is a real hell hole like Twycross is supposed to be, or a mars like world where pressure domes and under ground construction were the means of settling the planet.

But I can't imagine people standing pat after an attack or 2 leveled parts of a city not digging a hole in the ground and pouring some ferrocrete....

#30 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 02:16 AM

For Interest ...the Original Sized of some Unseen/Reseen mechs

Warhammer
Height Head 11.27 meters , 12.7 meters (overall); length 5,1 meters; width 7,9 meters

Rifleman
Height 11.27 meters (overall), 10.73 meters (up to antennae); length 4.3 meters; width 8.6 meters

Thunderbolt
Height 8,94 meters

Griffin
Height 10,02 meters

Archer
Height 11.3 meters (overall), ; length 6.1 meters; width 7,9 meters


Shadow Hawk
Height 9,63 meters

Wolverine
Height 11,78 meters

the most Heavy/Medium Un/reseen were taken as a size reference for Battletech, then some mechs scaling down for the Lightclass (Wasp original Macross Size 12.01 m), the Marauder has been adjusted in size to the other Heavymechs

#31 Nebfer

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 10:06 PM

View PostMarack Drock, on 01 June 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

Not physically possible. In another thread we did calculations to find out a rough estimate of how many Mechs there would be in 3050 combined (Clan and Inner Sphere). Barely over 500 thousand. There are 2 thousand planets in the Inner Sphere. Even with the Clans there would be a maximum of about 200 mechs per planet... in only the Inner Sphere. Then there are several hundreds of planets in the Periphery, and then there is the deep Periphery. By the time we factor in every faction and its planets, and ever single Clan and everything we are looking at less than 36 mechs per planet at the maximum. Maybe one Regiment per planet would be accurate by the production numbers given in the BattleTech lore. By the Dark Age even if we counted every single destroyed mech there would only be about 750 thousand mechs produced.

Either you made a mathematical error or the creators of BT did because their numbers they have given us do not support the idea of every planet have multiple regiments of mechs. And I wasn't even factoring into account the Mercenary units.

Any place with a mech also would do what to accommodate for it? They'd scale things up. Otherwise it defeats the purpose of having a mech. Either way you look at it people would always HAVE to scale things up to use the mechs.


News to me, Last I recall (hold on goes and finds said thread), every one was telling you that you where dead wrong, and that their was at best 200,000 battlemechs in use at any one time, and that is actually being quite Generous in the numbers department. We could give the Inner sphere 1,200 regiments (factoring in house regiments, militias, minor garrisons and factory defenses, mercenarys and retinues) and the Clans 750 Clusters both of these values are quite Generous, and that comes to about 210,000, However the lore dose not really support the notion that their is roughly a regiment worth of battlemechs per world.

In the Novels one generally dose not see a world sending out it's militia battlemech regiment(s) to stand along side the house regiment stationed their... If any thing their often discribed as having a company or two of rather old mechs, if they have any.

While their have been many times that number built, destroyed or deactivated mechs generally do not count as active.

Few Worlds will have a Regiment of Militia battlemechs (or even Industrials)
On average their going to be lucky to have a battalion in combined total of Industrial and battlemechs, out side of regional capitals and other VIP worlds few worlds would have more than a company or two of battlemechs

As for production you where also told you where dead wrong on that as well. their are fewer factory complexes in active use than you suggest, and their production rates are far less then what you indicate. The only time where we have any real indication of a houses production rates is in 3025, and no house had more than a thousand battlemechs being produced at one time, actually IIRC it was closer to no more than 600. With a fair number of battlemechs being built at single digit rates per year (notably heavy and assault mechs), also Aerospace fighter production was about 2/3rds battlemech production.

The thing is Battletech military's are comparatively tiny for their size, a Single house military in the 3060s had about 80 mech regiments, and around 700 to 1500 other regiments, perhaps has many as 2,000, Thats it. Planetary militias typically only have 3 to 20 Tank and infantry Regiments, The highest known number (by a factor of at lest twice of the next highest) had 80 regiments.

For example here's what the AFFS field Manuel indicates in 3062.

Regular Army is about 53 Regiments of Battlemechs, to that theirs slightly more than five times that in Tank regiments, or about 270 regiments. Infantry regiments makes up 2/3rds of the Regular Army, So at the lest theirs about 650 Infantry Regiments (323 Mech and tank x2), however we have little idea of the total number of Artillery units, fighter Wings and other combat units (not sure if engineers are lumped with the "Infantry" in the AFFs), that could add as many as one or two hundred more regiments to the non infantry totals, so the AFFSs regular army could have about 1,000 Infantry regiments to some 500 B-mech, Tank, Artillery and Fighter regiments.

The March Militia has about 27 mech Regiments and their RCTs, and an unknown number of other units, but out side of listed formations of the Militia RCTs totals are unknown, out side the fact that if the March Militias infantry where added to the Regular army's totals infantry would make up a bit more than 2/3rds of the total military (also note this value also would include planetary militias), and theirs a few mech regiments with the Training command.


Edit: Also by in large Battletech Citys are not strictly built for mech operations, though many probably do have some concessions, like perhaps stronger and wider main roads and bridges, not to mention taller over passes to facilitate them. However I would suspect that many city's that do not see much in the way of mechs do not lay their citys out to facilitate them on a regular basis.

Edited by Nebfer, 04 June 2015 - 10:12 PM.


#32 SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX

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Posted 13 October 2015 - 03:26 AM

View PostMazzyplz, on 31 May 2015 - 01:27 AM, said:

browsing this forum, another user posted a website with these images:

why do mechs not feel like this at all in game? what could we do to make the game feel more like what it's supposed to?

i'd love to hear any ideas you have on this so we can make a suggestion thread about it


the problem is the cockpit windows of the mechs.They are way too wide.I am not the one who stated this first but when i read
this back then and took a closer look at it it made tottaly sense.You shoudnt be able to see such a large field of the enviorment through your cockpit glass.thats the reason why you dont have the feeling to look down a 12m building in MWO´s mechs.Woud your head be 3m big and you had a view field of 6m the feeling of scale woud be way out of context.In particular when you stand directly
infront of a house you shoudnt be able to see the front of the house with 3 windows next to each other.
Instead you shoud only see 1 window, it feels like the pilot is 5m tall in mwo.Dont know if it´s understandable what i mean,
take a closer look and you will see :)

PS: But i think with a correctly scaled pilot + cockpit it woud get much more difficult gameplaywise
(for example aiming at lightmech cyrcling you with 130 kph).So i dont know what is more important....

Edited by shr84, 13 October 2015 - 04:12 AM.






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