83 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Bill Lumbar, on 01 June 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

It may be a stumbling block to move on from DX9.... but I believe if DX12 is all its cracked up to be give the age of DX9..... when DX12 comes it would be a good time to do it. Idk, just my opinion.

Not really. They don't even use all the features of DX11 (or, really, any of them). Dropping support for DX9 would actually cost users. That's a major cost, for no direct gain, particularly given the extreme amount of dev time required to actually use the new Cryengine.

In all honesty (and not as a "MWO IS DYING!" cry) I don't expect to see MWO ever drop support for DX9. They'll run this version of Cryengine until they're done. It's just too much of a cost for no gain.

There's tons of leveraging room for DX11 as it stands, so why not just focus on DX11 going forwards and not drop support for existing customers?

[occusoj]

Quote

The trick, rather than put your "F**K the NSA" t-shirt on an resisting change, is to learn how to use the options available to you in a responsible manner.

You have no options.

The platform your OS runs on cant be trusted. Theres no way to know whats in the silicon we buy except grinding it up and performing detailed analysis on it. Such analysis on a modern CPU is extremely complex and expensive. Finding a hidden functionality in it is an extremely hard task, close to impossible.
Then, theres UEFI. A whole OS below your OS. God (and some three letter agencies) knows whats in there.
Just consider it compromised.

Thats also one of the reasons why discussing "secure" operating systems for average computers is quite pointless.


Win 10? IMHO not worth it if doing so just for MWO.
DX12 most likely wont happen for this game. If it does, it will be utter mayhem. They cant even handle their current version of CE, upgrading to a DX12 capable one wont make that any better. For sure it comes with its own little bugs and quirks that need to be worked out. Also, every customization done to the current engine has to be redone for the new version.
Plus, the player base wont support a move that abandons DX9 as this is going to affect a huge lot of players in a not-so-positive way.
In the end, it wouldnt pay off for PGI to do that.

[cSand]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

The end result? Microsoft desperately needs people on Windows, and needs them to be on modern Windows to compete. MS won't go subscription for home users, because any major push against those home users would be a knife in their own back.

well, not quite.. as I wold say business is MS largest customer base. Servers and workstations and other applications (Exchange, Sharepoint, etc....)

The home user base I don't think is a huge issue for them.

...but from a "moving forward" it is a hell of a lot easier for them to get things done if people aren't still riding XP machines.

IMO, Windows is a much better desktop AND tablet AND phone OS than any of the others. And I've had em all...

Edited by cSand, 02 June 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[Bill Lumbar]

joelmuzz, on 02 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

The newer CryEngine dropped support for DX9, so PGI is stuck with the old version until they are ready to take the step of telling customers they need to upgrade computer/GPU or stop playing.

There is no point rushing to support DX12 when it isn't even released yet.

MWO should be fine on Win10.
However drivers are going to be a headache for a lot of computers, it will be foolish to rush to install without checking all your hardware is supported. Good idea to wait a couple of months for everything to catch up and major issues to be fixed, early adopter = guinnea pig.

Given some of the hardware specs of some of the players, if they are still only running only DX9 cards, I would say it is about time for them to upgrade that GPU. I understand times are tuff for almost everyone, but a new card can be had for a decent price.... Much less then some of the mech packs this game has sold.

[Wintersdark]

cSand, on 02 June 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

well, not quite.. as I wold say business is MS largest customer base. Servers and workstations and other applications (Exchange, Sharepoint, etc....)

The home user base I don't think is a huge issue for them.

...but from a "moving forward" it is a hell of a lot easier for them to get things done if people aren't still riding XP machines.

IMO, Windows is a much better desktop AND tablet AND phone OS than any of the others. And I've had em all...

You totally misunderstood my post. I probably wasn't clear enough though.

Home users are a miniscule to irrelevant part of MS's revenue - that's all enterprise. However, that home users are a part of MS's windows ecosystem is critical.

Thus, no subscription - they want home users on windows, for a large number of reasons, but not for direct revenue.

If they lose home users on windows, they face a major erosion of enterprise windows support (I want windows on my work PC's because that's what I'm used to - that happens in a lot of businesses that even run Linux back ends ). See also: the fate of Blackberry in enterprise after they didn't bother competing with iOS and Android at home.

Which OS is better is irrelevant. And a horrible subject to bring up online! All that matters is what people actually use.

MS can't afford to drive people away. The home OS market is already nowhere near as locked in as it once was.

[Wintersdark]

See also: WinPhone. Its an AWESOME mobile OS. And its also dead and done. Its a shame, because its very good, but being a good OS isn't nearly enough.

[Deathlike]

I still see machines running Win2K and WinXP. I'm pretty sure many of us will be running Win7 til the death, unless Win10 is compelling...

[Bill Lumbar]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Not really. They don't even use all the features of DX11 (or, really, any of them). Dropping support for DX9 would actually cost users. That's a major cost, for no direct gain, particularly given the extreme amount of dev time required to actually use the new Cryengine.

In all honesty (and not as a "MWO IS DYING!" cry) I don't expect to see MWO ever drop support for DX9. They'll run this version of Cryengine until they're done. It's just too much of a cost for no gain.

There's tons of leveraging room for DX11 as it stands, so why not just focus on DX11 going forwards and not drop support for existing customers?

I am fine and all for improvements and if PGI hasn't even maxed out all the goodness from DX11 yet, great, get on it! However, your last statement I feel is over selling things. If they update the cryengine and support DX12 fully, take advantage, they are not dropping support for existing customers, they are in fact dropping support for DX9 and cards that can not use DX11 and DX12. Once again, GPU's are a very easy upgrade, take less then a minute to pop into your rig, and they can be had for a reasonable cost. I know times are ruff guys, but I look to upgrade my GPU every two years... or expect to do so. I never go the highest end/ $cards above $500 and try to stay at around $300-350. Decent cards that support DX11 and when DX12 comes I am sure can be had for less for the budget minded crowd that can't afford mid-highend cards. PC gaming can be a ***** when it comes to chasing the dragon and wanting to stay up on things... however, having a DX9 card in your rig right now is getting to be on the very back end of low end these days, and it is very dated in the tech world.

[Peter2k]

Been running Windows 10 for months now

MWO doesn't have a problem with, neither in DX9/11 or 64-bit

There's official drivers from NVidia since a month or so (through GeForce experience), before that from Windows update itself
No idea about AMD's


Frankly I just downloaded the updater, let the Windows 10 update run largely unattended and everything worked for me

Even the clunky n bloated HP printer drivers
Old installed games work, new ones work

Actually working great

MWO seems to be a bit smoother for me, but hard to prove in FPS
Though I'm sure Microsoft changed a few things in the back

Now if MWO gets DX12 support (talk ya I know, still here's hoping) it would squeeze out quite some more fps I'm sure

[Peter2k]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Not really. They don't even use all the features of DX11 (or, really, any of them). Dropping support for DX9 would actually cost users. That's a major cost, for no direct gain, particularly given the extreme amount of dev time required to actually use the new Cryengine.

In all honesty (and not as a "MWO IS DYING!" cry) I don't expect to see MWO ever drop support for DX9. They'll run this version of Cryengine until they're done. It's just too much of a cost for no gain.

There's tons of leveraging room for DX11 as it stands, so why not just focus on DX11 going forwards and not drop support for existing customers?

What's so interesting about DX11?
It's got more eyecandy, it does not improve performance
And I'm already reducing quality settings, funny I can run AA in FarCry 4 (performance wise) but not here

I remeber many games back in the day having less fps when you choose DX11 instead of 9

12 is the first one to actually try to improve performance by any margin

If Anandtechs benching is in any way representable then every gamer should upgrade
though keep in mind it's a benchmark for a rather specific usage case, DrawCalls, but there was a MWO Dev here stating that MWO makes a lot of DrawCalls because of how mechs are made out of individual pieces

http://www.anandtech...ia-star-swarm/4

Overall it's been a great experience on Windows 10, don't know why anyone wouldn't want to upgrade, at least for free

[Peter2k]

Bill Lumbar, on 02 June 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

I am fine and all for improvements and if PGI hasn't even maxed out all the goodness from DX11 yet, great, get on it! However, your last statement I feel is over selling things. If they update the cryengine and support DX12 fully, take advantage, they are not dropping support for existing customers, they are in fact dropping support for DX9 and cards that can not use DX11 and DX12. Once again, GPU's are a very easy upgrade, take less then a minute to pop into your rig, and they can be had for a reasonable cost. I know times are ruff guys, but I look to upgrade my GPU every two years... or expect to do so. I never go the highest end/ $cards above $500 and try to stay at around $300-350. Decent cards that support DX11 and when DX12 comes I am sure can be had for less for the budget minded crowd that can't afford mid-highend cards. PC gaming can be a ***** when it comes to chasing the dragon and wanting to stay up on things... however, having a DX9 card in your rig right now is getting to be on the very back end of low end these days, and it is very dated in the tech world.

DX12 brings new eyecandy that graphic cards need to support, but an old core2duo would also benefit without a new card, if the game supports DX12 of course
Or all those AMD users with bad performance in MWO if it goes DX12

[Xenon Codex]

Really, the only special features of DX12 PGI needs support are the new draw call procedures. I have no idea how long or complicated that could take, but if that's the ONLY thing they did it'd probably be worth it.

Check out the benchmarks, just the draw call optimization would help a lot of players that are currently CPU limited. For those running i5s and i7s at 4GHz+, probably not a big deal, but for anyone else with a lower spec CPU and a decent video board should see a sizeable improvement.

Here's the deal. Currently MWO is mostly CPU-limited, presumably from draw calls due to the complexity of the mechs and terrain. Upgrading a computer's CPU is a daunting and expensive process for most people. Upgrading a video card? Easy peasy. Drop $150+ on a DX12 card and install new drivers. Way easier than a new motherboard, expensive CPU, possibly new RAM, and a re-install of Windows.

If a new video board can improve MWO significantly, that's a worthwhile investment. And for those already with decent video cards but lacking CPU, it's a no-brainer.

I'm sure PGI is exploring their options, but I really hope they invest some time into harnessing the performance improvements of DX12.

[Bill Lumbar]

Xenon Codex, on 02 June 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

Really, the only special features of DX12 PGI needs support are the new draw call procedures. I have no idea how long or complicated that could take, but if that's the ONLY thing they did it'd probably be worth it.

Check out the benchmarks, just the draw call optimization would help a lot of players that are currently CPU limited. For those running i5s and i7s at 4GHz+, probably not a big deal, but for anyone else with a lower spec CPU and a decent video board should see a sizeable improvement.

Here's the deal. Currently MWO is mostly CPU-limited, presumably from draw calls due to the complexity of the mechs and terrain. Upgrading a computer's CPU is a daunting and expensive process for most people. Upgrading a video card? Easy peasy. Drop $150+ on a DX12 card and install new drivers. Way easier than a new motherboard, expensive CPU, possibly new RAM, and a re-install of Windows.

If a new video board can improve MWO significantly, that's a worthwhile investment. And for those already with decent video cards but lacking CPU, it's a no-brainer.

I'm sure PGI is exploring their options, but I really hope they invest some time into harnessing the performance improvements of DX12.

From my understanding Russ and company already have stated that they will not be updating to the new cryengine, which means no DX12 support as it will be needed inorder to use DX12.

[cSand]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

You totally misunderstood my post. I probably wasn't clear enough though.

Home users are a miniscule to irrelevant part of MS's revenue - that's all enterprise. However, that home users are a part of MS's windows ecosystem is critical.

Thus, no subscription - they want home users on windows, for a large number of reasons, but not for direct revenue.

If they lose home users on windows, they face a major erosion of enterprise windows support (I want windows on my work PC's because that's what I'm used to - that happens in a lot of businesses that even run Linux back ends ). See also: the fate of Blackberry in enterprise after they didn't bother competing with iOS and Android at home.

Which OS is better is irrelevant. And a horrible subject to bring up online! All that matters is what people actually use.

MS can't afford to drive people away. The home OS market is already nowhere near as locked in as it once was.

Heh agreed on all points sir.

IF home users were to fade away, the business end would still roll on. But, competition is good... even if it's just OSX and Windows, lol. We can face the facts here.. chromeOS is a useless **** and most regular users won't touch a Linux box with a 50 foot pole. So that leaves 2 (both pretty decent, as much as I hate Apple, lol) options

I gotta tell you though, I am loving 2012 R2. It is rock solid. Looking forward to seeing 2016 server.

I wish Windows Phone would get more of a following cause it really is a superior phone OS. App selection , though, is f**king horrible (good thing all I use my phone for is emails and texts and camera.... oh yea, and some phone calls )

Edited by cSand, 02 June 2015 - 08:58 PM.

[Wintersdark]

cSand, on 02 June 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

Heh agreed on all points sir.

IF home users were to fade away, the business end would still roll on. But, competition is good... even if it's just OSX and Windows, lol. We can face the facts here.. chromeOS is a useless **** and most regular users won't touch a Linux box with a 50 foot pole. So that leaves 2 (both pretty decent, as much as I hate Apple, lol) options

funny thing about chromeOS though... Its terrible, as far as operating systems go, for a person like me. But for Random Persons laptop? Those people who live wholly in a web browser, playing Facebook games and browsing lolcats? Chromebooks have been cleaning house in the low cost laptop market, because you can get way better performance and battery life out of them... And the costs (being basically unable to do anything else) doesn't affect them.

8% of total laptop sales in 2013, 14% so far this year. A quarter the price of a macbook, better battery life, and with the new models brighter screens etc. It bothers me, being a techy sort, but they are a major disruptive force.

[darkkterror]

Wintersdark, on 02 June 2015 - 09:19 PM, said:

funny thing about chromeOS though... Its terrible, as far as operating systems go, for a person like me. But for Random Persons laptop? Those people who live wholly in a web browser, playing Facebook games and browsing lolcats? Chromebooks have been cleaning house in the low cost laptop market, because you can get way better performance and battery life out of them... And the costs (being basically unable to do anything else) doesn't affect them.

8% of total laptop sales in 2013, 14% so far this year. A quarter the price of a macbook, better battery life, and with the new models brighter screens etc. It bothers me, being a techy sort, but they are a major disruptive force.

Ugh, Chromebooks. I get people coming in and asking me why they can't install the $140 Microsoft Office they purchased on their Chromebook or their Kaspersky Anti-Virus that the sales person recommended for them.

[Wintersdark]

darkkterror, on 02 June 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

Ugh, Chromebooks. I get people coming in and asking me why they can't install the $140 Microsoft Office they purchased on their Chromebook or their Kaspersky Anti-Virus that the sales person recommended for them.

I know a lot of people who are extremely happy with their Chromebooks. A lot.

The reality for them is you don't need either of those things (and the salesman should be shot for selling them in the first place)... Chromebooks have Google Apps, covering all that stuff. (Yes, yes, I know the arguments here - this isn't about what I like, but what works for Random Folks)

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I just updated the game and no it doesnt run. It stops responding in both 32 bit and 64 bit mode

[EgoSlayer]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 31 July 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I just updated the game and no it doesnt run. It stops responding in both 32 bit and 64 bit mode

There are a number of people running it fine. The main problem people appear to be running into is video drivers. Have to uninstall your current driver set and reinstall new. That seems to fix it for most people.
More information in this thread, starting on page 10:
http://mwomercs.com/...k/page__st__180

[SgtMagor]

just upgraded yesterday to win 10, before I even installed the latest AMD drivers 7.1 MWO started up and ran on the test maps ok. After I updated the drivers I didn't notice any slow downs or problems running on the test maps so far. really didn't see much of a difference from win 8.1 heh!, guess ill try MWO tomorrow on assault drop and see how that goes.