124 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Wildstreak, on 02 June 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

I wonder if JJ quirks are possible.

OMFG! No more additional quirked attributes, please!

[Yokaiko]

Mystere, on 02 June 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

OMFG! No more additional quirked attributes, please!

Just fixing the mechanic....losttech

[Wildstreak]

Mystere, on 02 June 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

OMFG! No more additional quirked attributes, please!

Except there are problems within each JJ class and that is the only way I could see doing it unless they gave each tonnage its own JJ class, that would be 17 classes of JJs.
You cannot just change a stat or more on a JJ class. Change the Class 5 so the Panther gets better, Mist Lynxes will be shooting to the roof of the maps as one example why that will not work.

Edited by Wildstreak, 03 June 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wildstreak, on 03 June 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Except there are problems within each JJ class and that is the only way I could see doing it unless they gave each tonnage its own JJ class, that would be 17 classes of JJs.
You cannot just change a stat or more on a JJ class. Change the Class 5 so the Panther gets better, Mist Lynxes will be shooting to the roof of the maps as one example why that will not work.

No other class really needs the help, the Class I JJs are the only ones that are really hurting, like really... SO sluggish, even at Max JJs.

[Wildstreak]

Have to disagree. Grasshoppers are not that mobile with JJs in their class and they are not alone, I noted earlier as you go up in mass in any JJ class, that heavier ones lose. Why does a Panther with 8 JJs have no difference in any manner than one with 4? It is not just one class.

Class 3 & 4 (40t - 75t) have the best vertical thrust, Class 5 (20t-35t) the worst. Seems Mediums and Heavies go the best yet even the Hopper is struggling.

[Gas Guzzler]

3-4 JJs on a GHR gets you off the ground in a timely manner, comapred to 3-4 (8 ******* tons!!!) on a Highlander. Seriously... how often do you drive Highlanders?? Its just so painful, if I allocate 8 tons to jump jets, I don't want to have to worry about jumping up a level on River City for example.. that shouldn't be a problem with 8 tons of jump jets. I also want to elevate myself quickly enough so others don't have time to get of 2-3 alphas on my way up.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 June 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

3-4 JJs on a GHR gets you off the ground in a timely manner, comapred to 3-4 (8 ******* tons!!!) on a Highlander. Seriously... how often do you drive Highlanders?? Its just so painful, if I allocate 8 tons to jump jets, I don't want to have to worry about jumping up a level on River City for example.. that shouldn't be a problem with 8 tons of jump jets. I also want to elevate myself quickly enough so others don't have time to get of 2-3 alphas on my way up.

Well, it's 10 tons for the Heavy Metal.

Poor girl.

[Khobai]

IMO the way JJs should work is this...

1-2 jumpjets = basically no thrust at all and would be useless
3-4 jumpjets = would give you *barely* enough thrust to get up the walls in canyon
5+ jumpjets = each jumpjet beyond 4 would yield slightly more thrust, to encourage you to take more jumpjets. rather than the current system of diminishing returns that punishes you for taking max jumpjets.

certain bizarro mechs like the jester that only have 2 jumpjets would need +50%-100% jumpjet quirks to help them out.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 03 June 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

IMO the way JJs should work is this...

1-2 jumpjets = basically no thrust at all and would be useless
3-4 jumpjets = would give you *barely* enough thrust to get up the walls in canyon
5+ jumpjets = each jumpjet beyond 4 would yield slightly more thrust, to encourage you to take more jumpjets. rather than the current system of diminishing returns that punishes you for taking max jumpjets.

certain bizarro mechs like the jester that only have 2 jumpjets would need +50%-100% jumpjet quirks to help them out.

The reason I don't like that system is that a Highlander has to invest 6 tons just to barely get up the walls in canyon network. Not a lot of room for weapons, considering an XL isn't very smart in a Highlander nowadays.

[Navid A1]

PGI silence regarding this simple matter is deafening.

Tons upon Tons of feedback and suggestions to fix JJs forever are floating everywhere in the forums.

[Weeny Machine]

Drasari, on 01 June 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

The solution is the unlock JJ's for clans.

...or give mechs with JJ finally the mobility they deserve.

[Mystere]

Wildstreak, on 03 June 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Except there are problems within each JJ class and that is the only way I could see doing it unless they gave each tonnage its own JJ class, that would be 17 classes of JJs.
You cannot just change a stat or more on a JJ class. Change the Class 5 so the Panther gets better, Mist Lynxes will be shooting to the roof of the maps as one example why that will not work.

If you think of each JJ class as a standard component for each mech in the same weight class, then the difference in behavior between a Panther and Mist Lynx makes sense. I'm fine with that scheme.

[Kristov Kerensky]

JJs are mucked up due to a number of factors, none of which matter currently.

As far as Russ is concerned, JJ are working as intended, and that, sadly, tells us exactly where PGI's collective head is on the subject, so all our ranting, raving, crying, begging and pleading hasn't done a damn thing, and it's been going on for a long time now.

We DO have ourselves to blame for this, people made such an uproar over poptarting and despite all the OTHER things PGI/Paul did to counter the issue, people continued to scream and rage about it. We now have slow as hell PPC/ERPPCs, charge up on Gauss, screenshake when using JJ, heat while using JJ, falling damage using JJ, and JJ that don't work for jack on Heavy and Assault Mechs.

Now, some of those things were needed in regards to the JJ's themselves, the heat, falling damage, and screenshake, those are all fine and can remain. But the actual JUMP in the JJs, especially on the Class 1 and 2, it simply doesn't exist and that needs to be fixed.

ONE basic and simple solution to giving them back some thrust/vertical delta v, would be to make screenshake when using JJ start the moment you hit them UNTIL the moment you touch down on the ground again. That's it, all it takes, and JJs on the Heavys and Assaults can once again allow those Mechs to actually JUMP instead of create a cute little dust cloud like your Mech just farted.

No worries about poptarters, screenshake takes care of that issue. If you get motion sickness you are already having to deal with the screenshake, which means you don't use JJ or the motion sickness isn't that bad and it's a cop out.

Odds of us getting any changes to JJs that we would like are already less than a snowballs chance in hell, so...

After all, Russ said they are working as intended....and he's never wrong.....

[MechWarrior5152251]

Lightfoot, on 01 June 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

The Gladiator is not worth buying, no Endo Steel, but all jump-jets should work better.

I suggested that Jump-Jets could recharge slower to deter pop-tarting, but make mechs jump twice as high as currently configured as a trade-off. It would work better than what they have now. Poll is in Suggestions.

They already fuqed Jump Jets by not allowing them to recharge while you are falling. In MW2 they recharged whenever not thrusting. Of course this was really cool and allowed some serious sustained flight given JJ actually provided thrust in MW2...

[J0anna]

Kristov Kerensky, on 03 June 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

No worries about poptarters, screenshake takes care of that issue. If you get motion sickness you are already having to deal with the screenshake, which means you don't use JJ or the motion sickness isn't that bad and it's a cop out.

Odds of us getting any changes to JJs that we would like are already less than a snowballs chance in hell, so...

After all, Russ said they are working as intended....and he's never wrong.....

There is a difference between screenshake and reticleshake. The Latter I can ignore (by looking elsewhere on the screen) as I don't look at it while jumping, the former is only avoided by not looking at the screen. It's not a "cop out" to say the former gave me a headache after 2 to 3 games. Personally, I'd prefer all shake removed and just prevent weapons from firing unless you are on the ground. I'd even be fine with having a cone of fire while airborne.

Doesn't matter, PGI isn't going to change this. We'll never be able to use a "Highlander Burial" and the Executioner will really be an 87 ton mech. Anything after 1xJJ will always be a waste of tonnage. Such is the reality of MWO.

[Kassatsu]

MechWarrior5152251, on 03 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

They already fuqed Jump Jets by not allowing them to recharge while you are falling. In MW2 they recharged whenever not thrusting. Of course this was really cool and allowed some serious sustained flight given JJ actually provided thrust in MW2.

It also had lateral thrust hotkeys and it was quite possible to catapult a Kodiak on a ballistic trajectory in excess of 300kph right into an enemy mech... Or a friendly mech, a bridge support, a wall... They were a bit much, but on the other hand, they actually worked.

In regards to the ideas of exponential jump jet thrust (which I completely agree with, once you've gotten enough thrust to 'hover', any extras added are just that - extra, unless you simply wanted a longer flight with lower thrust from each jet, which should also be an option):

Comstar Breaking News: A Spider-5V pilot today has confirmed the chassis variant as best possible battlemech design, launching several thousand meters into the air in a glorious suicide attack before its legs imploded under the impact of its landing and left a massive crater. The pilot was posthumously awarded our highest honor for his valiant efforts in thwarting the clan menace. Wreckage making up no fewer than three completely destroyed Dire Wolves were discovered in and around the impact zone. Other clanners fortunate enough to evade the epicenter in time were so heavily damaged that they were no match for the rest of our scout lance.

Edited by Kassatsu, 03 June 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[SgtMagor]

please do something with the jump jets already.

1-thrust vectoring-forward-reverse-strafing
2-delayed forward thrust launch-like in Mw4 make the mech crouch hit the jump jets to build thrust, uncrouch the mech and take off at the max speed of the chassis iirc!
3-longer flight time-quirks, modules, etc;

[Khobai]

Quote

The reason I don't like that system is that a Highlander has to invest 6 tons just to barely get up the walls in canyon network. Not a lot of room for weapons, considering an XL isn't very smart in a Highlander nowadays.

Of course. Because you want an abusive system where you only have to take 1 jumpjet to jump around. We tried that before and it didnt work because of players like you abusing it.

In battletech assaults pay a premium for jump capability. Thats done for balance reasons so assaults with jumpjets have to sacrifice firepower. Thats why the highlander should have to take 3 jumpjets to get up the walls in canyon. That makes it impossible to abuse the system which is exactly why you dont like it.

Quote

Not a lot of room for weapons, considering an XL isn't very smart in a Highlander nowadays.

So give IS their Light Fusion Engine. Problem solved.

Quote

3-4 JJs on a GHR gets you off the ground in a timely manner, comapred to 3-4 (8 ******* tons!!!) on a Highlander. Seriously... how often do you drive Highlanders?? Its just so painful, if I allocate 8 tons to jump jets, I don't want to have to worry about jumping up a level on River City for example.. that shouldn't be a problem with 8 tons of jump jets. I also want to elevate myself quickly enough so others don't have time to get of 2-3 alphas on my way up.

90 ton mechs pay a premium for jump capability. That was done deliberately in battletech to reduce the amount of weapons a 90 tonner could carry, since they could jump behind you and fire into your back.

I agree that jumpjets should cost 2 tons each for 90+ ton mechs in order to keep stock builds the same in MWO. However I dont agree with class I jumpjets having less thrust than class V jumpjets. All classes of jumpjets should give the SAME amount of thrust. In battletech if you had 3 jumpjets you could jump 3 hexes regardless of whether you were a 20 ton mech or a 100 ton mech.

Jumpjet height should be standardized for all mechs:
1 jumpjet = basically does nothing
2 jumpjets = works like the current hover jets, again essentially does nothing
3 jumpjets = *barely* get up the walls in canyon with some trepidation
4 jumpjets = easily gets up the walls in canyon
5+ jumpjets = each additional jumpjet beyond 4 should get stronger using an exponential curve. this would encourage mechs to take more jumpjets or even max jumpjets. Instead of just the bare minimum required to jump.

If the vast majority of mechs are rated for 3-7 max jumpjets then taking 1-2 jumpjets should do nothing. That makes perfect sense to me since jumpjets are based on a principle of brute force, much like rockets, so if you dont have a high enough thrust-to-weight ratio youre not getting off the ground.

Although certain mechs like the jester would have to get jumpjet quirks. because the jester only has 2 jumpjets. So it would have to get a +50%-100% jumpjet thrust quirk.

Edited by Khobai, 03 June 2015 - 04:01 PM.

[Mystere]

Kristov Kerensky, on 03 June 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

We DO have ourselves to blame for this, people made such an uproar over poptarting and despite all the OTHER things PGI/Paul did to counter the issue, people continued to scream and rage about it. We now have slow as hell PPC/ERPPCs, charge up on Gauss, screenshake when using JJ, heat while using JJ, falling damage using JJ, and JJ that don't work for jack on Heavy and Assault Mechs.

Nope. I blame you all. I never complained about any of those.

[Yokaiko]

Mystere, on 03 June 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Nope. I blame you all. I never complained about any of those.

I used to use JJs to hop over whatever rock they were hiding behind and offload a couple tons of missiles.

I miss real jump jets, a lot.