16 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

so based on the recent Quirks to the SCR / TBR,
i was thinking of how the Quirks to them dont make sense,
and also dont do much to Fix the Problems,

so here below i have compiled a list of Quirks,
how i would Quirk the SCR / TBR if i could,



SCR
=SCR-Prime=
HD(1E)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle,
CT= +10%Acceleration +10%Deceleration
LT=
RT(1AMS)= +5%AMS-Range, +5%AMS-ROF
LA(2E)=
RA(2E)=
LL=
RL=

=SCR-A=
HD=
CT= +20%Acceleration
LT(1M)= +4%Missile-Cooldown,
RT(1M)= +4%Missile-Cooldown,
LA(4E)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle, -20%Torso-Twist-Speed,
RA(1M)= +4%Missile-Cooldown,
LL=
RL=

=SCR-B=
HD=
CT= +20%Deceleration
LT= +3*Torso-Turn-Angle,
RT= +3*Torso-Turn-Angle,
LA(1B)= +5%Ballistic-Cooldown, +10%LBX-Velocity, -5%LBX-Spread,
RA(6E)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle, -20%Torso-Twist-Speed,
LL=
RL=

=SCR-C=
HD=
CT= +5*Torso-Turn-Angle,
LT(1E)=
RT(1E)=
LA(1B)= +5%Ballistic-Cooldown, +10%LBX-Velocity, -5%LBX-Spread,
RA(1E)=
LL=
RL=

=SCR-D=
HD=
CT= +5%Reverse-Speed
LT(2M)=
RT(1M)= +4%Missile-Cooldown
LA(1M)= +4%Missile-Cooldown
RA(1M)= +4%Missile-Cooldown
LL=
RL=



TBR
=TBR-Prime=
HD=
CT(1B)= +5%MG-Range, +5%MG-ROF,
LT(1E,1M)=
RT(1B,1M)=
LA(2E)=
RA(2E)=
LL=
RL=

=TBR-A=
HD=
CT(1E)= +5%Reverse-Speed
LT(3E)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle, -20%Torso-Twist-Speed,
RT(1M)= +4%Missile-Cooldown,
LA(1E)= +5%ER-PPC-Velocity,
RA(1E)= +5%ER-PPC-Velocity,
LL=
RL=

=TBR-C=
HD=
CT(1E)= +5%Reverse-Speed
LT(1M,1AMS)= +5%AMS-Range, +5%AMS-ROF
RT(1M)= +4%Missile-Cooldown,
LA(2E)
RA(1B)= -5%Ballistic-Cooldown, +10%LBX-Velocity, -5%LBX-Spread,
LL=
RL=

=TBR-D=
HD=
CT(1E)= +5%Reverse-Speed
LT(2M)=
RT(2M)=
LA(1E)= +5%ER-PPC-Velocity,
RA(1E)= +5%ER-PPC-Velocity,
LL=
RL=

=TBR-S=
HD=
CT(1JJ)= +10%Acceleration +10%Deceleration
LT(1B,2M,2JJ)= -5*Torso-Turn-Angle, -10%Torso-Twist-Speed,
RT(1E,1B,2M,2JJ)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle, -20%Torso-Twist-Speed,
LA(1E)= +4%Energy-Cooldown,
RA(2E)=
LL=
RL=



would this help Balance these 2 mechs more than -3Energy-Everything?

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Values Changed

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 01 June 2015 - 04:01 PM.

[Khobai]

well I didnt read any of that...

but stormcrow needs a max torso twist nerf because 130 degree torso twist is absurd.

and timberwolf needs some kindve agility nerf so it moves more like a 75 ton mech. it feels like a 60-65 ton mech.

either of those wouldve made more sense than the negative energy quirks

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 01 June 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

well I didnt read any of that...

why?

but ya thats what i suggested
Quirk Pentalties to Turn Angle(for Awesome Pods)

=SCR-Prime=
HD(1E)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle,

=SCR-A=
LA(4E)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle, -20%Torso-Twist-Speed,

=SCR-B=
RA(6E)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle, -20%Torso-Twist-Speed,

=TBR-A=
LT(3E)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle, -20%Torso-Twist-Speed,

=TBR-S=
LT(1B,2M,2JJ)= -5*Torso-Turn-Angle, -10%Torso-Twist-Speed,
RT(1E,1B,2M,2JJ)= -10*Torso-Turn-Angle, -20%Torso-Twist-Speed,

Thoughts?
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 01 June 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Khobai, on 01 June 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

well I didnt read any of that...

but stormcrow needs a max torso twist nerf because 130 degree torso twist is absurd.

and timberwolf needs some kindve agility nerf so it moves more like a 75 ton mech. it feels like a 60-65 ton mech.

either of those wouldve made more sense than the negative energy quirks

It has a 375 engine in it, it's going to be quick. A wubmaster with an XL 400 moves pretty quick too.

[FupDup]

lordtzar, on 01 June 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

It has a 375 engine in it, it's going to be quick. A wubmaster with an XL 400 moves pretty quick too.

The underlying issue here is engine-based agility. If agility defaulted to a level based just on mech tonnage, and not how big your engine was, this issue would be solved instantly. The Mad Cat would have the same unquirked agility as any other unquirked 75 ton heavy. However, with engine-based agility, it has the same agility as any 89.1 kph mech of any size.

A Gargoyle, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, and Nova, for example, all have the same agility as the Mad Cat before we factor in quirks...and that's kinda silly. Fix this and the Mad Cat's so-called "ballerina" issue that everyone loves to complain about will fade away.

Edited by FupDup, 01 June 2015 - 04:30 PM.

[Kassatsu]

FupDup, on 01 June 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

The underlying issue here is engine-based agility. If agility defaulted to a level based just on mech tonnage, and not how big your engine was, this issue would be solved instantly. The Mad Cat would have the same unquirked agility as any other unquirked 75 ton heavy. However, with engine-based agility, it has the same agility as any 89.1 kph mech of any size.

A Gargoyle, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, and Nova, for example, all have the same agility as the Mad Cat before we factor in quirks...and that's kinda silly. Fix this and the Mad Cat's so-called "ballerina" issue that everyone loves to complain about will fade away.

But that makes sense. We can't have that, no. Not here.

Everything must submit to the quirkening. It is the only way.

Edited by Kassatsu, 01 June 2015 - 04:30 PM.

[Templar Dane]

FupDup, on 01 June 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

The underlying issue here is engine-based agility. If agility defaulted to a level based just on mech tonnage, and not how big your engine was, this issue would be solved instantly. The Mad Cat would have the same unquirked agility as any other unquirked 75 ton heavy. However, with engine-based agility, it has the same agility as any 89.1 kph mech of any size.

A Gargoyle, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, and Nova, for example, all have the same agility as the Mad Cat before we factor in quirks...and that's kinda silly. Fix this and the Mad Cat's so-called "ballerina" issue that everyone loves to complain about will fade away.

I can see doing that. A formula that's just tonnage to engine rating., rather than the current system where a mech that stock has a big engine gets an even bigger bonus.

[Khobai]

Quote

It has a 375 engine in it, it's going to be quick. A wubmaster with an XL 400 moves pretty quick too.

Im fine with the timberwolf moving quick.

The problem is it has agility like a 60-65 tonner. It doesnt feel at all like youre in a 75 ton mech. It should feel more like an Orion and less like a Dragon/Quickdraw.

So torso twist nerf for stormcrow. turn speed nerf for timberwolf. those were the right ways to nerf those mechs.

Quote

But that makes sense. We can't have that, no. Not here.

It makes sense for max speed not turning speed. a bigger engine wouldnt make a mech turn faster just like running faster doesnt make human beings turn faster. turning speed is based on the distance between strides and the distance between your legs.

That said, because this is a game, and bigger engines need to justify their tonnages, I do think a bigger engine should give a turning bonus over a smaller engine. But it shouldnt be as big of a bonus as it currently is; It should probably only be like half or two-thirds of what it is now.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[Drasari]

It's not the mech, it's the weapons. The ML and ERL need a mall change to damage and range. I do not want all the Clan mechs to have negative quirks. Fix the problem not the symptom.

[Templar Dane]

Drasari, on 01 June 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

It's not the mech, it's the weapons. The ML and ERL need a mall change to damage and range. I do not want all the Clan mechs to have negative quirks. Fix the problem not the symptom.

They've been nerfed a couple of times already. Next thing you know the whiners will be saying clan armor is too strong, so they switch out the armor for balsa wood. Then, someone somewhere dies to a clan mech and the campaign begins anew, and then they turn all clan lasers into tag lasers, the missile launchers shoot confetti and the ballistic weapons fire foam darts.

To combat clan speed, they then remove engines from omnimechs.

[Armorine]

dont own a mad cat not sure i ever will but i dont see what every ones issue with its agility is. it was the premier battlefield supremacy mech. even in dark age it was a feared opponent. theyr suppose to be fast and scary....but thats just an assault pilots perspective

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 01 June 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

The underlying issue here is engine-based agility. If agility defaulted to a level based just on mech tonnage, and not how big your engine was, this issue would be solved instantly. The Mad Cat would have the same unquirked agility as any other unquirked 75 ton heavy. However, with engine-based agility, it has the same agility as any 89.1 kph mech of any size.

A Gargoyle, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, and Nova, for example, all have the same agility as the Mad Cat before we factor in quirks...and that's kinda silly. Fix this and the Mad Cat's so-called "ballerina" issue that everyone loves to complain about will fade away.

I think my issue with this is that linear speed gains get pretty weak, and engine weight/gain ratio starts to get really poor the larger the engine.


At that point, what is the benefit of going higher and higher on engine? Or do we just make it so everything beyond 350 is a waste?


As it is, right now, people complain about 400XLs being a waste, this would take away one of the things they actually grant - aside from paying a premium in tonnage for a few extra critical slots (350 with +4 is plenty).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 June 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 01 June 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

I think my issue with this is that linear speed gains get pretty weak, and engine weight/gain ratio starts to get really poor the larger the engine.


At that point, what is the benefit of going higher and higher on engine? Or do we just make it so everything beyond 350 is a waste?


As it is, right now, people complain about 400XLs being a waste, this would take away one of the things they actually grant - aside from paying a premium in tonnage for a few extra critical slots (350 with +4 is plenty).

More speed and more heatsink slots. The latter can sometimes let you pack on another tech upgrade, which in turn can refund some of the tonnage you just spent on that engine. Remember that example of my custom hypothetical Warhawk with both Endo AND FF, with 26 DHS and an XL375?

Also, making big mechs not want the huge engines as much is actually a "feature" more than a "flaw." It would create a larger mobility difference between mediums and heavies/assaults, which might add a little more motivation to underton.


For mechs like the Glarg with the XL400, that's an extreme example of a mech that was just poorly built in nearly every way (just look at the stock Prime...lololololollololololol). It can have its mobile assault role distinguished by just adjusting its own base agility rather than relying on the engine-agility mechanics to do it.

Edited by FupDup, 01 June 2015 - 08:46 PM.

[CaliburZero]

FupDup, on 01 June 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

The underlying issue here is engine-based agility. If agility defaulted to a level based just on mech tonnage, and not how big your engine was, this issue would be solved instantly. The Mad Cat would have the same unquirked agility as any other unquirked 75 ton heavy. However, with engine-based agility, it has the same agility as any 89.1 kph mech of any size.

A Gargoyle, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, and Nova, for example, all have the same agility as the Mad Cat before we factor in quirks...and that's kinda silly. Fix this and the Mad Cat's so-called "ballerina" issue that everyone loves to complain about will fade away.

I had a similar comment with Bishop a bit back, but I may as well state it here. It WOULD have been nice to see in addition to engine determining agility-based stats, for All 4 weight classes to have a minimum and maximum pre-defined modifier to change the final torso twist rate, for example. From there, they could have given each chassis slightly different values on the spectrum to give each chassis more character.

So, assaults could've had a modifier that reduced the base torso twist rate by like 40% or something, with a maximum agility of -20%. And then a Zeus would say since its an 80 tonner, would sit at 23% base. Or something like that. But alas... this level of effort I doubt we'd ever see.

Edited by CaliburZero, 01 June 2015 - 10:02 PM.

[Chuck Jager]

I like the unique mobility of the both the Scrow and Twolf. I could care less if other mechs dont have it, because i dont want to play the same mech with a different skin.

I see the logic in the quirks, because I can easily boat short med and lgpllas on my Twolf and crows and they work well at most ranges. The burn time was short enough on the med and lg to be moving in and out of firing position while still keeping it on target, but also still passable in a closer brawl.

Many IS mechs had to switch to std engines and even though they have good short burn time quirks, they were still taking good alphas that were hard to spread. The 12-15% extra burn time is still around the manageable 1.25-28 burn times, but the spread is greater and the shooter has to actually work to keep it on target (no real sympathy if they were using the erllas).

I made a 4cspllas, 3cmedlas, 1lgpllas stormcrow that usually killed anything before it would overheat and the only real drawback was I could not fit a targeting computer. Now I drop an arm med las and add a tcomp only to drop the burn by 3% and the meds are not really useable at close range against med and lights. The mobility on the Scrow is great, but that is not what makes this mech still a major menace with plenty of cheese.

[Widowmaker1981]

FupDup, on 01 June 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

The underlying issue here is engine-based agility. If agility defaulted to a level based just on mech tonnage, and not how big your engine was, this issue would be solved instantly. The Mad Cat would have the same unquirked agility as any other unquirked 75 ton heavy. However, with engine-based agility, it has the same agility as any 89.1 kph mech of any size.

A Gargoyle, Hellbringer, Mad Dog, and Nova, for example, all have the same agility as the Mad Cat before we factor in quirks...and that's kinda silly. Fix this and the Mad Cat's so-called "ballerina" issue that everyone loves to complain about will fade away.

No, i like engine based agility. It makes sense too, since the twist is obviously powered by the engine, a more powerful engine should provide more turning force.

Dont kill my wubshee. I dont want it to twist like a Dire.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 02 June 2015 - 04:55 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

What happened to...These quirks killed the Timber Wolf and Storm Crow! They are now in the lowest tier!

You would think the 2+ pages of nothing but TW and SCR nerf screaming would have meant the nerfs were actually too much . It's amazing how initial panic is often unjustified.

OK, in all seriousness. I don't know if there needs to be a huge agility rework over engine size when the TW is pretty much the only real culprit. Yes the Storm Crow is agile, but it is a medium chassis, I can live with that. Maybe a small torso stop adjustment, but I am not too concerned with that.

The Timber Wolf could get a small torso agility nerf that basically brings it down to 1x basic level (when fully skilled). I wouldn't make any big changes though.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 02 June 2015 - 05:03 AM.