60 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

MeiSooHaityu, on 02 June 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

I'll tell you what people have been telling me for years about the Catapult.

Its a long range indirect (CLRMs) mech and therefore is more fragile than a brawler or in your face damage dealer.

Keep your distance, lob missiles, profit! If you want to take it up close with streaks or SRMs, it's a gamble you might lose.

Hey, look at the bright side. At least your missiles aren't in the arms like a Catapult. Plus, you can pack a lot of LRMs, move quickly, and survive a side torso loss unlike a Catapult (which either has to decide on speed or durability).

I guess what I'm saying is you have a Clan Catapult, it should be treated similarly as one. There are far better choices for up close and personal.

ALL OF THIS.

And I drive mostly clan mechs. Stop freaking trying to quirk mechs into doing things they are not supposed to. YES splat builds can be hilarious but that does not warrant quirking the freaking torsos so they can all become super tankey. Its a long range mech, It should be used as such. 4 Ermediums and some Artemis LRM 15's seem plenty painful enough to me.

[xXBagheeraXx]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 June 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Unfortunately for both, they just pale in comparison to the HBK-4J thanks to the requirement of TAG for running LRMs competently and the fact the highest mount the 4J is the TAG laser (excluding the insane quirks) is what makes it so perfect.

If the Mad Dog had a cockpit level TAG, it would actually be good with the lurm boating, but unfortunately that is not the case. The Catapult unfortunately for how it was designed, is not a LRM mech thanks to the ears that stick up far above the cockpit. It needs actual artillery like the Arrow IV or viability of the brawling Catapult to actually fulfill a role. Or the return of the good old trojan horse Catapult from the MW4 days where you ran only torso weapons and used the arms as a diversion for bad teams.

Mine LRM just fine....Artemis lrm 15's with built in rate of fire quirks? 3 mediums and a tag? Anybody I catch in the open eats LRM death...I can hover just over hills and Lob missiles at people others are locking and very seldom get my ears blown off....

That and she looks sexy in Sherman...My only headache is that its very slow, only 60ish kph....but we cannot possibly be driving the same catapult.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 02 June 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

I'll tell you what people have been telling me for years about the Catapult.

Its a long range indirect (CLRMs) mech and therefore is more fragile than a brawler or in your face damage dealer.

Keep your distance, lob missiles, profit! If you want to take it up close with streaks or SRMs, it's a gamble you might lose.

Hey, look at the bright side. At least your missiles aren't in the arms like a Catapult. Plus, you can pack a lot of LRMs, move quickly, and survive a side torso loss unlike a Catapult (which either has to decide on speed or durability).

I guess what I'm saying is you have a Clan Catapult, it should be treated similarly as one. There are far better choices for up close and personal.

considering it can pack 6 C-SSRM6 or C-SRM6s, gotta have some tradeoff for the faceraping alpha it can kick out.

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

Mine LRM just fine....Artemis lrm 15's with built in rate of fire quirks? 3 mediums and a tag? Anybody I catch in the open eats LRM death...I can hover just over hills and Lob missiles at people others are locking and very seldom get my ears blown off....

That and she looks sexy in Sherman...My only headache is that its very slow, only 60ish kph....but we cannot possibly be driving the same catapult.

I love my 6x LRM5 MDD. And I'm having a lot of fun with a silly build packing 2x LB-5X and 6x C-SRM2.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 June 2015 - 06:13 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Honestly the only reason I dont drive a 6srm A1 anymore is because of the FUGLY missile models it has. If they fix that You best belive I will be driving a splat cat again. LOL

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

Mine LRM just fine....Artemis lrm 15's with built in rate of fire quirks? 3 mediums and a tag? Anybody I catch in the open eats LRM death...I can hover just over hills and Lob missiles at people others are locking and very seldom get my ears blown off....

That and she looks sexy in Sherman...My only headache is that its very slow, only 60ish kph....but we cannot possibly be driving the same catapult.

And I have plenty of 1000+ damage games in both the LRM Mad Dog and Catapult, doesn't mean they are effective for a more competitive arena and nor does it mean they are where they should be.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 June 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 June 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

And I have plenty of 1000+ damage games in both the LRM Mad Dog and Catapult, doesn't mean they are effective for a more competitive arena and nor does it mean they are where they should be.

See this is where you are screwing up.

NOT EVERYONE WHO PLAYS THIS GAME PLAYS FOR THE COMPETITIVE CRAP...

I have played 0 cw games to date. My plans for the future? 0 cw games...

Does the mech boat missiles well?

Yes.

Does the mech make for a fast, mobile long range missile platform?

Yes.

What is the issue here?

Well you see this mech is never picked for competative drops because laser voitm....STOP

STOP RIGHT THERE.

IT doesn't need it.

[Deathlike]

The Maddog has gotten the unfortunate deal where it didn't get quirked like the worst of the Clan mechs.

Of course, it was almost 2 months ago when those Clan Mechs got quirked (some quirks are still borked, like the Warhawk-C's right torso quirk) so.... maybe someday soon™.

[FupDup]

The "support mech" argument was terrible when it was used towards Catapults in the past, and it's still terrible today for any other mech that people put that label on (such as the Mad Dawg).

The ability to torso twist and deflect damage to nonvital body locations is one of the most integral mechanics in the game and one of the biggest differences between MWO and any other generic game. Making some mechs have crappy hitboxes that can't really do this reduces the skill cap of the mechs in question, because there's not nearly as much of a difference between twisting effectively or not doing it at all if your mech just dies quickly either way.

This basic yet massively important mechanic should be present on all mechs in the game to at least some extent. Obviously, each mech won't have completely identical twisting/spreading ability, and that's fine, but every mech should be able to do it at least somewhat, even if they're "just support mechs."

[Templar Dane]

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

Does the mech boat missiles well?

Yes.

Does the mech make for a fast, mobile long range missile platform?

Yes.

What is the issue here?

Well you see this mech is never picked for competative drops because laser voitm....STOP

STOP RIGHT THERE.

IT doesn't need it.

A Hunchback 4J does the job better, lighter and faster.

[xXBagheeraXx]

FupDup, on 02 June 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

The "support mech" argument was terrible when it was used towards Catapults in the past, and it's still terrible today for any other mech that people put that label on (such as the Mad Dawg).

The ability to torso twist and deflect damage to nonvital body locations is one of the most integral mechanics in the game and one of the biggest differences between MWO and any other generic game. Making some mechs have crappy hitboxes that can't really do this reduces the skill cap of the mechs in question, because there's not nearly as much of a difference between twisting effectively or not doing it at all if your mech just dies quickly either way.

This basic yet massively important mechanic should be present on all mechs in the game to at least some extent. Obviously, each mech won't have completely identical twisting/spreading ability, and that's fine, but every mech should be able to do it at least somewhat, even if they're "just support mechs."

Have you actually LOOKED at the physical model of the thing? Even if they change the hitboxes, even if they give it stupid structure buffs it still has a huge SHOOT ME I AM CT for a nose and the massive missile pods for side torsos. The mech just gets side torsoed easily. It is just one of those things It has to deal with due to its shape, just like the catapult has really easy to shoot off ears. It is just weaknesses inherent in the mech that have to be kept in mind when piloting it. Just like atlases are freaking wide as all outside. You know what that means? THATS RIGHT kiddies! That sucker loses its side torsos if you loook at it hard. The only thing the structure buffs did was help me keep the AC20 a bit longer when the armor was gone. It still gets its side torsos cleaved pretty quickly. But do i want more side torso buffs? No. I think that is an inherent design feature that must be piloted around. I dont want any more stinking quirks to shoehorn the mech into something its not.

[FupDup]

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

Have you actually LOOKED at the physical model of the thing? Even if they change the hitboxes, even if they give it stupid structure buffs it still has a huge SHOOT ME I AM CT for a nose and the massive missile pods for side torsos. The mech just gets side torsoed easily. It is just one of those things It has to deal with due to its shape, just like the catapult has really easy to shoot off ears. It is just weaknesses inherent in the mech that have to be kept in mind when piloting it. Just like atlases are freaking wide as all outside. You know what that means? THATS RIGHT kiddies! That sucker loses its side torsos if you loook at it hard. The only thing the structure buffs did was help me keep the AC20 a bit longer when the armor was gone. It still gets its side torsos cleaved pretty quickly. But do i want more side torso buffs? No. I think that is an inherent design feature that must be piloted around. I dont want any more stinking quirks to shoehorn the mech into something its not.

The Catapult's ears were better before the VCRs were added...

The goal isn't to make the Mad Dawg into a supertank, the goal is to make it have survivability at least somewhat more in-line with a 60 ton heavy than something almost half that size.

The omnipods with the fewest hardpoints, like the 2 missile and 1 missile side torsos, would be the main candidates for improvements.

The 3 missile torsos might be left in as the "glass cannon" option for people who want to boat ALL THE MISSILES in exchange for being almost as squishy as an IS medium with an IS XL engine. However, if somebody only has a few hardpoints, then it's fair to gain something in exchange for reduced firepower.

[xXBagheeraXx]

FupDup, on 02 June 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

The Catapult's ears were better before the VCRs were added...

The goal isn't to make the Mad Dawg into a supertank, the goal is to make it have survivability at least somewhat more in-line with a 60 ton heavy than something almost half that size.

The omnipods with the fewest hardpoints, like the 2 missile and 1 missile side torsos, would be the main candidates for improvements.

The 3 missile torsos might be left in as the "glass cannon" option for people who want to boat ALL THE MISSILES in exchange for being almost as squishy as an IS medium with an IS XL engine. However, if somebody only has a few hardpoints, then it's fair to gain something in exchange for reduced firepower.

But then it starts a slippery trend...

HEY MY LIGHT MECHS GET LEGGED REALLY QUICKLY, EVERYONE IS SHOOTING MYLEGS WHEN I FIGHT THEM I SHOULD GET +20 LEG ARMOR AND STRUCTURE QUIRKS!

AND DIREWOLVES ARE TOO POWERFUL! THEY BOAT TOO MANY CANNONS! NEGATIVE QUIRKS PLOX? (already starting to see this with the UAC buff)

See where this is going?

[Templar Dane]

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

The mech just gets side torsoed easily. It is just one of those things It has to deal with due to its shape, just like the catapult has really easy to shoot off ears.

Oh okay, once you put it that way.

It's not like the catapult has structure and armor quirks for the ears.

My bad.

[xXBagheeraXx]

lordtzar, on 02 June 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

Oh okay, once you put it that way.

It's not like the catapult has structure and armor quirks for the ears.

My bad.

That It did not need is my point. Its one of the inherent weaknesses in the design.

and they STILL get lopped off easily.

[FupDup]

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

But then it starts a slippery trend...

HEY MY LIGHT MECHS GET LEGGED REALLY QUICKLY, EVERYONE IS SHOOTING MYLEGS WHEN I FIGHT THEM I SHOULD GET +20 LEG ARMOR AND STRUCTURE QUIRKS!

AND DIREWOLVES ARE TOO POWERFUL! THEY BOAT TOO MANY CANNONS! NEGATIVE QUIRKS PLOX? (already starting to see this with the UAC buff)

See where this is going?

For lights, it depends on which one we're talking about. The Raven, for example, has the very infamous issue of leg hitboxes extending slightly beyond the visual model, meaning that you could potentially damage the legs by hitting the air near the legs instead of directly hitting them. Not to mention that they are just really long in general relative to the upper body. It makes sense in cases like that because PGI isn't going to remodel every mech to have optimally shaped bodies, so they just quirk their way around it instead (i.e. the infamous Awesome).


The Daishi actually is often the assault mech of choice in super-organized environments (I'm talking high-rollers like EmP, SJR, and such) because they have the positioning and teamwork skills to mostly nullify the mech's mobility weakness. It just doesn't shine as well in most pug matches because of the chaotic and often "rambo-ish" nature of that queue, which means they might get left behind by their Nascaring teammates.

[Escef]

FupDup, on 02 June 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

The Raven, for example, has the very infamous issue of leg hitboxes extending slightly beyond the visual model, meaning that you could potentially damage the legs by hitting the air near the legs instead of directly hitting them.

This was done on purpose back in open Beta, because those spindly legs had such narrow hitboxes that it was very difficult to get damage to register on them (and pre-HSR, hit detection on lights was really iffy to begin with).

[FupDup]

Escef, on 02 June 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

This was done on purpose back in open Beta, because those spindly legs had such narrow hitboxes that it was very difficult to get damage to register on them (and pre-HSR, hit detection on lights was really iffy to begin with).

The Raven's issues in early beta weren't caused by the leg hitboxes, they were caused by Lagshield/netcode in general, which affected all lights. This made the majority of damage fired at them, not actually do much of anything.

What made the Raven stand above the other Lagshielded lights was that it could carry both ECM and Streaks at the same time. The Streaks back then mostly hit the CT, which made them massively lethal to lights, even with just 4-6 tubes of them. The ability to disable an opponent's Streaks while still using its own allowed it to facestomp most other lights during that time. The only one that could really fight it was the Commando 2D, which also had the ability to use ECM + SSRMs. Both of these items have been nerfed in various ways since then, of course...

The leg hitbox inflation was a bandaid that has outlived its usefulness. It's been an obsolete adjustment since ballistic HSR got added.

Edited by FupDup, 02 June 2015 - 08:28 PM.

[Mercules]

FupDup, on 02 June 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

The Catapult's ears were better before the VCRs were added...

Yes....

...but they were still cut off easily in closed beta before TTK went down. They always have been a weakness of the mech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

I have played 0 cw games to date. My plans for the future? 0 cw games...

Where did you get that CW is competitive.......

xXBagheeraXx, on 02 June 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

See this is where you are screwing up.

NOT EVERYONE WHO PLAYS THIS GAME PLAYS FOR THE COMPETITIVE CRAP...

Does the mech boat missiles well?

Yes.

Does the mech make for a fast, mobile long range missile platform?

Yes.

What is the issue here?

Well you see this mech is never picked for competative drops because laser voitm....STOP

STOP RIGHT THERE.

IT doesn't need it.

Where the hell did I say it needs to laser vomit? See, this is where YOU screw up. You think that when people talk about wanting a mech to be competitive, they mean complying to the meta and not ADDING too the meta (or at least a role that could be viable). Jman runs the HBK-4J in comp matches all the time so missiles are semi-viable because of the perfect combination of cockpit placement, missile placement, cockpit TAG, and quirks that it has.

The Mad Dog and Catapult however do not have this combination and therefore suffer in comparison to the beast that is the HBK-4J.

[Escef]

FupDup, on 02 June 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

The leg hitbox inflation was a bandaid that has outlived its usefulness. It's been an obsolete adjustment since ballistic HSR got added.

Casting aside the other comments (I was here then, as well, I know there were plenty of issues), I don't see the Raven's leg hitboxes as being the huge detriment you seem to think they are.