32 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

Greetings all.

I just read Russ's vision for the upcoming stuff in June and July, and would like to comment:

The good:

I like that Russ and PGI are taking the community's thoughts into consideration, and are working towards player happiness. This is good, and is a hallmark of good Dev's.

Most of the upcoming changes in june and july will be for the better of the game.

The Bad:

Save one - the CW changes. I like that they wanna make CW better, but I don't think they are going about it the right way. Here's why:

1) Making the dropships stronger and hover longer, will dicourage light mechs from spawn camping, yes, and make the others scamper for cover.. but it will also make short work of those unlucky mechs that were just in the area accidentally, not intending to spawn camp. The DROPSHIP allready has the best kill/death ration in the game.. let's not make it even more OP.

2)Shielding the generators will have a simple result - no gen rushes. This means that this will kill any tactics in CW, since it will turn CW into skirmish mode where the objective is to kill all enemies. This will ENCOURAGE spawn camping, KILL tactical thinking, and RUIN what little immersion CW has. Instead of doing this, leave the standard CW mode as it is, but introduce new CW modes, with new objectives that have no generators or omega, but rather VIP-style moving targets, time-limited objectives like protecting evacuating civilians and such. The possabilites are endless.

3) The desire to make MWO more e-sport-like is great, and I applaud that, but don't do that at the expense of immersion, fluff and general game balance. If you wanna make it an E-sport, do that through Solo PUG drops, and maybe special game mechanics just for e-sport modes, not by nerfing this and quirking that. IS and CLAN mechs are different for specific reasons, and you could never balance it enough for the e-sport fan to be happy. E-sports and Immersive Mech games aren't a really good match, so be carefull not to ruin the game. So far, the game has been moving towards the e-sport/deathmatch way of thinking and the great majoritiy of the people that put money into the game wish it to go towards tabletop and PVE ways of thinking.

Keep that in mind.

Edited by Vellron2005, 03 June 2015 - 12:48 AM.

[Paigan]

I initially thought the gen shielding is a good idea.
However, reading your post, I somehow have to agree with it.

Surely we can still rush to the gens, but I bet there will be a fat DWF / Atlas standing right before the opening and you can't just suicide-kill the gen with 1-3 heavier mechs. You'll HAVE to kill them all.
Picking off the gens and omega will then be just a kind of "prize" to be reaped after doing so.
Or, of course, a noob-team-Knockout backdoor.

I always thought of light-rush protection in terms of additional fast-tracking, short-range, low-damage turrets.
And/or maybe special-short-range SSRM-2 turrets or something.
Some stationary thing that is hardly a threat to bigger mechs, but devastating against smaller ones that dare to go where they are not supposed to be (attacking an assault target).

Edited by Paigan, 03 June 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[STEF_]

I think that a combat simulator is a very different thing from an e-sport.

WORSE idea ever.

And this "decision" explains a lot about PGI and why most of its ideas in mwo suck

[LordNothing]

things like spawn camp and light rush are what add character to cw matches. its like they want to make it so there is only one way to win them and that leads to boring games.

cw really needs a new game mode thats not a half baked slap together mode like counter attack (or whack a beacon, why did they even waste time and money on that). instead of bandaids for things that dont even seem like real problems. is there ever going to be any real progress on cw?

[Weeny Machine]

I still think that this kind of MOBA approach to CW is simply..."misplaced". MWO is supposed to be a mech simulator...how can you feel being in the Battletech universe when you play League of Legends with your mech?

Scenarios would have been kind of cool where actions could trigger also PVE units as a reward (ever read the BT scenario books? The one explaining the Tukkayyid campaign is brilliant) with objectives to be achieved.
Most likely, though, the poor ol' engine wouldn't be able to handle that.

[Widowmaker1981]

Agree on the OP dropship front, but they did say they are moving the spawns, so people shouldnt be anywhere the dropships will shoot (assuming PGI pathed them correctly..). Moving the spawns is all thats needed though.

I see no problems with making the generators impossible/difficult to rush. Its not 'tactics' to charge an objective with no thought of fighting the enemy. This is a game, and games are meant to be fun. Fighting mechs that fight back is fun, shooting the backs of mechs that are obsessed with killing a truck that doesn't move is.. not as much fun.

I dont want the enemy team to be able to see my team and go "oh, we cant beat them in a fight, so lets just rush the generators and see if we can win that way". If you can't win the fight, then you need to get better at fighting. The end.

[Alistair Winter]

You have to go back and listen to Russ' vision of Community Warfare in earlier Town Hall meetings. There's a lot of criticism being made about CW that is simply complete irrelevant, because Russ has a very specific idea of what CW is supposed to look like:

• Attackers attack the gates. This is isn't a tactical element of the match, so much as a thing they implemented to set the mood. It's like the intro.
  
• Defenders set up in positions inside the base, which is is a relatively open area.
  
• Attackers breach the gates.
  
• Brawl inside the gates.
  
• Attackers die, drop again, rinse and repeat.

The whole point of CW is to get a big brawl going inside the gates. I've seen criticism like:

• We should have multiple objectives
  
• The defenders should be able to push out and attack some kind of command vehicle, like the one in Assault
  
• Maps should have more attack lanes, to make scouting more important for both sides
  
• Only 20% of the map is being used, the rest is just empty space where attackers have to walk to get back in the fight. We should use the whole map!

But this is all missing the point. Russ doesn't want any of that. He wants a big brawl inside the gates. He doesn't like light mech zerg rushing, because it doesn't lead to brawling. And he doesn't want teams to split up and fight outside the gates, because it doesn't lead to brawling. He wants epic battles with 12v12 deathballs, not slow-paced tactical matches.


As long as this is his vision for CW and Invasion mode in particular, there's no point talking about immersion, tactics, strategy, convoy escorts, planting demolition teams, rescuing VIPs or assassinating enemy team commanders. As far as PGI is concerned, CW is all about brawling inside the base.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 03 June 2015 - 05:43 AM.

[Alan Davion]

LordNothing, on 03 June 2015 - 03:51 AM, said:

things like spawn camp and light rush are what add character to cw matches. its like they want to make it so there is only one way to win them and that leads to boring games.

Pardon my language... But are you F****** KIDDING ME?!

How does being spawn camped add "character" to the game?

I've been on the receiving end of spawn camps in this game, and in BF3... And guess what, the experience didn't add one IOTA of character to either game, in fact it made me want to play the game LESS.

And the Light-Rush-Zerging was the same thing in StarCraft, cowardly. Why bother working through the tech tree when you can create a massive army right at the start and not have anything to worry about? It's cheap and cowardly.

I am ecstatic that the generators now can only be attacked through a narrow cone, and that the spawns are being moved to change this behavior.

I might ACTUALLY WANT TO PLAY CW AGAIN!

[sycocys]

Well I do like that they are doing at least something with CW I guess, but I also agree that its the wrong approach for much the same reason. The mode simply needs more depth and objectives to complete to give it that MW warfare feel, most of the tech to make these sorts of thing happen in CW and other maps is already in the game so its mostly a matter of initiative.

Their vision for e-sports on the other hand is never going to happen unless they actually decide to break down their core game and start rebuilding some of the stuff that has been broken for years.

[Kassatsu]

Alan Davion, on 03 June 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

And the Light-Rush-Zerging was the same thing in StarCraft, cowardly. Why bother working through the tech tree when you can create a massive army right at the start and not have anything to worry about? It's cheap and cowardly.

Pretty sure it's a legitimate, counterable tactic in both games.

[Alan Davion]

Kassatsu, on 03 June 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

Pretty sure it's a legitimate, counterable tactic in both games.

The problem is, you have to know it's coming in order to counter it, and quite frankly it's almost impossible to tell sometimes.

Yes, I will admit it is /slightly/ easier to tell in this game, but that still doesn't give the defending team an equal opportunity to counter it.

This change to the generators does.

And all this talk of 'killing' strategy? BULL.

This change is going to make people have to really think about how to attack the generators instead of rushing blindly in.

OH NO! People might actually have to use real tactics such as attacking from one side to draw the enemy away, and then sending in a few small, fast mechs.

Oh the humanity!

/sarcasm

[Sir Wulfrick]

I'm generally cautiously content with the way things are road-mapped at the moment. As a frequent CW player (I actually prefer it to PuGing or small-team drops) I also conceptually like the changes being made to the CW maps. Looked at from a current military perspective, protecting the generators as they are now would definitely be hard mode as the tactical problem presented to the defending side is very difficult. If that's made slightly easier then all well and good. There's a reason why most commanders will not attack an entrenched enemy position without a 3:1 numerical advantage and if at all possible preparatory air strikes, artillery on-call etc. etc. Obviously in MWO the attackers don't enjoy such a numerical advantage but it remained the case that the generators were placed very poorly for enabling a reasonable defence.

I agree 100% with Vellron2005 that PGI should be cautious in making MWO more of an e-sport type game. There could be distinct advantages to this for the game as a whole in terms of player base and general public awareness of the game, but I think that such things should be strictly limited to the PuG and group queues, i.e. "Solaris" matches could and by lore should be a sport, but I'd prefer to see CW retain a more immersive 'Mechwarrior battle simulator' feel to them.

Developing the entirety of MWO in to some arena e-sport at the expense of any emphasis on the lore and it being a mech simulator would be one of the very few things that would force me to seriously reconsider my support for the entire game. I think in all honesty that I'd be done with MWO were that to come true.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Stefka Kerensky, on 03 June 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

I think that a combat simulator is a very different thing from an e-sport.

WORSE idea ever.

And this "decision" explains a lot about PGI and why most of its ideas in mwo suck

Yeah, I thought that the overall aspect of the road map was pretty good considering that it is based off of a number of logical issues, but it does seem like a number of incomplete actions that will still continue on for some unknown amount of time.

Also when I read the E Sports (e peen) directive for MWO I felt a little sick... That was so NOT what I wanted to hear from the head honcho of this game

Edited by The Ripper13, 03 June 2015 - 06:27 AM.

[sycocys]

My only one hope with his desire to make it e-sports capable, and my guess is that this is a renewed focus with Heavy Gear being in alpha with sponsored tournaments, is that they will finally nut up and fix core problems that prevent it from being a possibility currently.

[LordBraxton]

The E-Sports nonsense explains why they put lanes in CW. PGI are foolish, and always have been, in the sense that they try to broaden MWO's target audience rather than cater to their fans. In the end they will attract a handful of new faces and legions of fans are becoming bittervets as time goes on. Im so bitter and salty at this point I have to spit the taste out of my mouth everytime I say the letters P-G-I. The inherent imbalanced nature of this game makes it terrible for esports. Imagine if there was a cash prize tournament, and the gloves REALLY came off! There would be only a few builds per side, and everything would be min-maxxed. PGI needs to sell this game for fun, and capitalize on the BT fanbase.

Alistair Winter, on 03 June 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

You have to go back and listen to Russ' vision of Community Warfare in earlier Town Hall meetings. There's a lot of criticism being made about CW that is simply complete irrelevant, because Russ has a very specific idea of what CW is supposed to look like:

• Attackers attack the gates. This is isn't a tactical element of the match, so much as a thing they implemented to set the mood. It's like the intro.
• Defenders set up in positions inside the base, which is is a relatively open area.
• Attackers breach the gates.
• Brawl inside the gates.
• Attackers die, drop again, rinse and repeat.

The whole point of CW is to get a big brawl going inside the gates. I've seen criticism like:

• We should have multiple objectives
• The defenders should be able to push out and attack some kind of command vehicle, like the one in Assault
• Maps should have more attack lanes, to make scouting more important for both sides
• Only 20% of the map is being used, the rest is just empty space where attackers have to walk to get back in the fight. We should use the whole map!

But this is all missing the point. Russ doesn't want any of that. He wants a big brawl inside the gates. He doesn't like light mech zerg rushing, because it doesn't lead to brawling. And he doesn't want teams to split up and fight outside the gates, because it doesn't lead to brawling. He wants epic battles with 12v12 deathballs, not slow-paced tactical matches. As long as this is his vision for CW and Invasion mode in particular, there's no point talking about immersion, tactics, strategy, convoy escorts, planting demolition teams, rescuing VIPs or assassinating enemy team commanders. As far as PGI is concerned, CW is all about brawling inside the base.

I'm normally 100% with you Winter, but this is a case of Russ wanting stupid things. Do we really need another instant action mode?

Edited by LordBraxton, 03 June 2015 - 06:52 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Vellron2005, on 03 June 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:

2)Shielding the generators will have a simple result - no gen rushes. This means that this will kill any tactics in CW, since it will turn CW into skirmish mode where the objective is to kill all enemies. This will ENCOURAGE spawn camping, KILL tactical thinking, and RUIN what little immersion CW has.

Yep. Just like the turrets on the regular maps killed any tactical play there.

Vellron2005, on 03 June 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:

Instead of doing this, leave the standard CW mode as it is, but introduce new CW modes, with new objectives that have no generators or omega, but rather VIP-style moving targets, time-limited objectives like protecting evacuating civilians and such. The possabilites are endless.

Gamemode design remains PGI's most noteworthy...growth opportunity. Highly confined and repetitive gameplay, minimal changes to try and shift things. It's a shame, because boredom and lack of interesting gamemodes is the greatest factor holding this game back.

[Deimir]

MASC - This patch introduces a new piece of equipment on the Executioner and it will function as described in the most recent town hall with fine tuning of variables still underway."

Which was...?

Edited by Deimir, 03 June 2015 - 06:39 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

LordBraxton, on 03 June 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

I'm normally 100% with you Winter, but this is a case of Russ wanting stupid things. Do we really need another instant action mode?

Absolutely not. I think we are in agreement. Russ' vision of CW is entirely unappealing to me, which is why I've barely played it the past 4-5 months. Don't get me wrong, while I do say that people's idea of redesigning the maps, the game modes and mission objectives is irrelevant, those are precisely the things I want myself! I want multiple objectives, I want more realistic warfare in CW, I want to let CW feel more like Battletech and leave e-sports to public queue and/or Solaris.

But this isn't the way the game is headed. And I'm afraid PGI is so invested in Russ' vision of CW, that there's no turning back now. The only thing I hope is that 4v4 Recon mode in CW will give us a little bit of what we would have liked to see in 12v12 Invasion mode.

[LordBraxton]

Alistair Winter, on 03 June 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

Absolutely not. I think we are in agreement. Russ' vision of CW is entirely unappealing to me, which is why I've barely played it the past 4-5 months. Don't get me wrong, while I do say that people's idea of redesigning the maps, the game modes and mission objectives is irrelevant, those are precisely the things I want myself! I want multiple objectives, I want more realistic warfare in CW, I want to let CW feel more like Battletech and leave e-sports to public queue and/or Solaris.

But this isn't the way the game is headed. And I'm afraid PGI is so invested in Russ' vision of CW, that there's no turning back now. The only thing I hope is that 4v4 Recon mode in CW will give us a little bit of what we would have liked to see in 12v12 Invasion mode.

I'd love a mode where we actually have to look for the enemy... Dream on I guess. :<

[Johnny Z]

I like all the changes to the maps that have been talked about as being on the way. I am glad there is no "safe zone" per say but I also didnt like the completely unsim way a dropship with a pilot would drop mechs into certain instant wreckage. I am not sure about the CT only attacks though. Invasion mode sticking with the sim and figureing things out that way is great.

I dont mind the E-Sports at all if its on Solaris which is geared towards that and having a different atmosphere for the Galaxy map geared towards exploration and heavy serious combat with serious consequences. The brawling only idea from a previous reply isnt right though. I think they are going for "Battletech" in the long run. Really.

Edited by Johnny Z, 03 June 2015 - 07:03 AM.