21 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

Hi all! I am not a new player here, but thought that this post belonged in the new player section so that pilots just starting MWO could benefit from it. I actually have been out of the MWO loop for a month, only playing occasionally due to RL and am getting back into it now. I've kept up with the patch notes, so I think I'm on top of everything. That being said, I want to make sure that I've got the following three topics straight:

1) Movemnt Archtypes
2) Engine Ratings
3) JJs

1) Archetypes still dictate your Mech movement and agility. For example, a Huge will be more sluggish than a Large and definitely slower and less agile than a Small, even if they all have the same engine rating?

2) Engine rating determines your base agility in terms of turn rate, speed, accel/decel, and hill climb. Movement archetypes and quirks can modify those parameters though. For example, a Small Mech will automatically have all those baseline stats boosted, while a Huge will have them nerfed somewhat to make up for its size and firepower. Quirks stack on top of the archetype to either mitigate or compound its effects.

3) JJs still don't increase your turn speed because they can't be decoupled from the engine rating, yes?

I was asked to teach some new players in my Unit these three points, and want to make sure that my info/understanding is up to date. Thanks all!

Edit: I apologize for any typos! This keyboard drops letters sometimes.

Edited by Nightmare1, 26 May 2015 - 05:02 AM.

[Josef Koba]

Great questions. I've been playing MWO for since just after closed beta, and I am not entirely sure on the answers here. Suffice it to say that even veteran mechwarriors could benefit from the answers.

[Nightmare1]

Josef Koba, on 26 May 2015 - 05:06 AM, said:

Great questions. I've been playing MWO for since just after closed beta, and I am not entirely sure on the answers here. Suffice it to say that even veteran mechwarriors could benefit from the answers.

Yeah, I've been around a while too, and this stuff still confuses me on occasion. There's almost as many explanations, it seems, as there are pilots willing to explain it, lol.

[Fobhopper]

Nightmare1, on 26 May 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

Hi all! I am not a new player here, but thought that this post belonged in the new player section so that pilots just starting MWO could benefit from it. I actually have been out of the MWO loop for a month, only playing occasionally due to RL and am getting back into it now. I've kept up with the patch notes, so I think I'm on top of everything. That being said, I want to make sure that I've got the following three topics straight:

1) Movemnt Archtypes
2) Engine Ratings
3) JJs

1) Archetypes still dictate your Mech movement and agility. For example, a Huge will be more sluggish than a Large and definitely slower and less agile than a Small, even if they all have the same engine rating?

2) Engine rating determines your base agility in terms of turn rate, speed, accel/decel, and hill climb. Movement archetypes and quirks can modify those parameters though. For example, a Small Mech will automatically have all those baseline stats boosted, while a Huge will have them nerfed somewhat to make up for its size and firepower. Quirks stack on top of the archetype to either mitigate or compound its effects.

3) JJs still don't increase your turn speed because they can't be decoupled from the engine rating, yes?

1) In would be easier to say that you weight class determines your movement. Assaults are going to move and turn like ****-brickhouse, while nearly all lights are going to be able to run circles against almost all mech types. That being said, there are certain "Hard caps" when it comes to speed. In assaults the hardcap is roughly 72 kph (with speed tweek), with exception of the boars head, which can hit about 80kph. Lights on the other hand have a hardcap of 179 kph if I remember correctly.

2) There are some mechs that are quirked for movement speed, but not that many. They may help you, but your still pretty limited with just how everything is designed in game, until the MAST (or whatever its called) gets released. A legged mech will still only move at 40 kph (unless you got modules) at best, and you are still going to lose speed climbing hills (even with module bonuses).

3) JJ dont inherently make you turn faster, BUT if you boost yourself into the air and then turn your legs, you will turn much faster than trying to do it on land. You will have to keep in mind that in lighter mechs, trying to do this will usually mean you over-turn and its easy to lose track of that in the middle of a firefight.

[Nightmare1]

Fobhopper, on 26 May 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

1) In would be easier to say that you weight class determines your movement. Assaults are going to move and turn like ****-brickhouse, while nearly all lights are going to be able to run circles against almost all mech types. That being said, there are certain "Hard caps" when it comes to speed. In assaults the hardcap is roughly 72 kph (with speed tweek), with exception of the boars head, which can hit about 80kph. Lights on the other hand have a hardcap of 179 kph if I remember correctly.

2) There are some mechs that are quirked for movement speed, but not that many. They may help you, but your still pretty limited with just how everything is designed in game, until the MAST (or whatever its called) gets released. A legged mech will still only move at 40 kph (unless you got modules) at best, and you are still going to lose speed climbing hills (even with module bonuses).

3) JJ dont inherently make you turn faster, BUT if you boost yourself into the air and then turn your legs, you will turn much faster than trying to do it on land. You will have to keep in mind that in lighter mechs, trying to do this will usually mean you over-turn and its easy to lose track of that in the middle of a firefight.

While you're not wrong, I'm looking for something more detailed than just the basics. I have to teach an hour-long training class this Thursday and am wanting to make sure that my own understanding is correct. Good point on the speed caps though. I hadn't thought about including caps in my lesson plan.

On bullet 3, I don't fully agree with you concerning JJs. From what I'm finding on the forums, JJs don't help you turn faster because turn rate is hard-coded into the engine rating and cannot be decopled for JJs. It just seems like you turn faster because you're not trying to turn while running. Think of it this way, do you turn faster standing in place or while sprinting? The faster you go, the wider your turn radius needs to be. JJs, by allowing you to jump, allow you to essentially turn in place while moving forward. Think of it like turning to the side while riding on a conveyor belt at an airport.

At least, that's my understanding. If it's wrong, could you point to your source? Thanks!

[TheRedZealot]

1) Im not quite sure what specifically you mean by Archetypes but I believe you're correct. Tonnage has the biggest influence AFAIK but it sounds like that might be what you're referring to?
2) Right, remember that Engine rating also determines the number of Internal heatsinks (1/25 Engine Rating. >250 adds more Heatsink slots.)

3) Right. Your leg turning rate doesn't change when you're using jump jets but You can use them to make sharper turns which may be where the confusion comes from. once you lift off your mech doesnt change directions flying through the air. So you could essentially get a 90 or 180 degree turn this way. You go up, turn your legs, land and move in a new direction immediately.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Nightmare1, on 26 May 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

1) Archetypes still dictate your Mech movement and agility. For example, a Huge will be more sluggish than a Large and definitely slower and less agile than a Small, even if they all have the same engine rating?

Movement archetypes determine your turn radius, acceleration and deceleration rate, and how well your 'mech handles slopes. It doesn't affect absolute speed, though. Assuming the Huge, Large, and Small are all the same tonnage (because speed is determined by the tonnage and engine rating in tandem), the Huge will slow down on the shallowest slopes of the three, and the Small will be able to run up things that might as well be walls for the Large.

Nightmare1, on 26 May 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

2) Engine rating determines your base agility in terms of turn rate, speed, accel/decel, and hill climb. Movement archetypes and quirks can modify those parameters though. For example, a Small Mech will automatically have all those baseline stats boosted, while a Huge will have them nerfed somewhat to make up for its size and firepower. Quirks stack on top of the archetype to either mitigate or compound its effects.

Engine rating determines your movement speed and the rate at which your 'mech turns. Acceleration and deceleration is built into the movement archetype and is basically a percentage of your maximum speed per period of time. This means that while a 'mech with a larger engine rating will reach, say, 20 KPH earlier, it will reach its top speed at the same time as the same 'mech with a less powerful fusion plant will reach its own top speed.

Turn rate, in turn (heh), is determined by the turn radius- put a larger engine in, and the 'mech will describe the same curves when turning, it'll just traverse them much faster. This mostly comes into play when turning at less than maximum speed- because the 'mech has to change direction faster to describe the same arc in a smaller period of time, it turns faster in an absolute sense, so when standing still it will rotate more rapidly.

Hill climb is attached to movement archetype- the smaller your movement archetype, the higher the angle you can climb without decelerating automatically. Also, the smaller your movement archetype, the higher the angle you can climb while being forced to decelerate towards a fraction of your original speed. A larger engine means that this automatic deceleration happens from a higher absolute speed, and since the rate of the hill-climbing deceleration is not hinged on the absolute speed of your 'mech the way basic acceleration or deceleration is, a 'mech with a more powerful fusion plant will be able to climb steeper hills- but only if they're short enough that it reaches the top of the slope before its 'momentum' runs out.

Quirks then modify this upwards or downwards.

Nightmare1, on 26 May 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

3) JJs still don't increase your turn speed because they can't be decoupled from the engine rating, yes?

Edit: Clarity

Number of jump jets is decoupled from engine rating. Your turn speed is the same, jumping or not. Adding more jump jets only affects the degree of lift you get from your jets, nothing else. The functional improvement in jumping turns is as the player above me described- you can turn while jumping and your jump arc remains laterally straight- so you come down and your feet are already facing a new direction, so you describe a much sharper turn assuming you did your turning while midair. This is also risky, because when you land from a jump, unless you use your jets just right, you automatically decelerate to 0.0 Kph and have to accelerate all over again in your new direction.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 26 May 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I thought movement archetypes only affected hill climb angle and collision boxes (so King Crab arms don't clip the walls and such). I thought only the engine rating affected speed, aceleration, etc except for where quirks modify those. Also, in the past, I thought a particular chassis had some of those values hardcoded (so the Jenner might be better at turning than the Commando, if they had the same engine and weighed the same. Guess a better example is the difference between the Jagermech and the Catapult.) We do know that torso speed and angle is set per chassis not per engine or weight class or tonnage, although a higher engine will make it torso turn faster. Not sure on turn speed and that kind of stuff though. Koniving would probably be the best person to ask. He knows the inner workings of this game extremely well.

Edit: Movement archetype was not even a stat until hill climb angle affecting mechs was added.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 26 May 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[Nightmare1]

TheRedZealot, on 26 May 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

1) Im not quite sure what specifically you mean by Archetypes but I believe you're correct. Tonnage has the biggest influence AFAIK but it sounds like that might be what you're referring to?
2) Right, remember that Engine rating also determines the number of Internal heatsinks (1/25 Engine Rating. >250 adds more Heatsink slots.)

3) Right. Your leg turning rate doesn't change when you're using jump jets but You can use them to make sharper turns which may be where the confusion comes from. once you lift off your mech doesnt change directions flying through the air. So you could essentially get a 90 or 180 degree turn this way. You go up, turn your legs, land and move in a new direction immediately.

1) In addition to weight class, there are also size archetypes. For example, the King Crab was recently reclassed (nerfed) from Large to Huge.

2) Thanks! I couldn't remember that ratio!

3) That's what I was thinking. Thanks for the verification!

Edited by Nightmare1, 26 May 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Vlad Striker]

Archetype specify maximum available climbing angle meanwhile.

[Spike Brave]

If your teaching a class, I'd add this. You turn faster if you stand still. Standing still in the middle of a fight is generally a bad idea, but if you're alone in an assault with a light dancing around you, it can do wonders for being able to track the little guy. Also jump jet shake stops when you aren't firing the jets. So jump up, let off the jets to take a shot, then hit the jets to avoid fall damage.

You probably know this, but I figured it may help someone new who saw the post and decided to read.

[Nightmare1]

Spike Brave, on 26 May 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

If your teaching a class, I'd add this. You turn faster if you stand still. Standing still in the middle of a fight is generally a bad idea, but if you're alone in an assault with a light dancing around you, it can do wonders for being able to track the little guy. Also jump jet shake stops when you aren't firing the jets. So jump up, let off the jets to take a shot, then hit the jets to avoid fall damage.

You probably know this, but I figured it may help someone new who saw the post and decided to read.

Thanks for the input! That is something I covered last week though. I highlighted how to snap turn by holding down the accel key (W on keyboard) and then tapping your Full Stop Key (X Default). Your throttle cuts in half and then accels very quickly, letting you snap turn and then launch in a new direction.

It's good stuff though and definitely fits in this thread for new pilots. Thanks for posting!

[Koniving]

I'd like to step in here.

1) Movement archetype:
Your movement archetype determines two things. Your collision size (Huge can't fit where Large can in terms of both horizontal and vertical spaces such as between buildings), your hill climbing difficulty (how quickly you're forced to a stop when trying to climb over hills of X incline),

2) Engine rating
The mech's weight will determine the base multipliers for movement and agility (For example a 75 ton mech needs a 375-rated engine to reach 81 kph, a 70 ton mech only needs a 350-rated engine to reach the same speed, while a 60 ton mech only needs a 300-rated engine to get that speed).

The engine rating will determine basic movement stats (acceleration, braking, twist speed, turn speed, max speed) that the mech's weight multiplies.

Finally, a mech's quirks are then applied after the fact (and not reflected as of when this is being written in the mechlab stats for the mech).

Below is the stats of the 180 engine on 45 ton mechs.
Stats meaning: Rating STD XL HSNKs Speed Turning rate
Blackjack 1-DC: 180 9.0 5.5 7 64.8 kph (71.3 kph) 45.86 °/s 7.85 s
Vindicator 1-R: 180 9.0 5.5 7 64.8 kph (71.3 kph) 45.86 °/s 7.85 s
Identical because the engine and weightclass is.
But then comes quirks:
Blackjack 1-DC:

Spoiler

Torso Yaw: 90 ° TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 25.00 % ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 11.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 11.00 AC/2 COOLDOWN: 12.50 % BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 12.50 % AC/2 HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 % BALLISTIC HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 % MEDIUM LASER HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 % ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 % LASER DURATION: -15.00 % ENERGY RANGE: 15.00 %

Vindicator 1R:

Spoiler

ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LA): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LL): 11.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 11.00 PPC HEAT GENERATION: -10.00 % ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -10.00 % PPC VELOCITY: 40.00 % MEDIUM LASER COOLDOWN: 10.00 % ENERGY COOLDOWN: 10.00 % MISSILE COOLDOWN: 12.50 %

The Blackjack 1-DC has a quirk for a 25% faster turning rate.
So after quirks:
Stats meaning: Rating STD XL HSNKs Speed Turning rate
Blackjack 1-DC: 180 9.0 5.5 7 64.8 kph (71.3 kph) 57.325 °/s (Less than 7 seconds).
Vindicator 1-R: 180 9.0 5.5 7 64.8 kph (71.3 kph) 45.86 °/s 7.85 s

3) Jumpjet turning speed had nothing to do with how many jumpjets you had installed (though that would be a good reason to have more). It is a set amount though what determines it is unknown. PGI nerfed the heck out of it because mechs would use repeatedly jumping to engage multiple enemies in rapid succession, making mechs incredibly difficult to contend with and borderline unfair. I do not know if engines affect jumpjet turning speed. However I do know that engines are in fact tied with how 'fast' you 'lift'. More engine power equals faster lift. The engine also determines how much heat you get from using jumpjets (more engine power = more heat per jumpjet).

Jumpjet update. (Somewhere in the feedback thread for that one is the exact equation they use; look at Paul's posts throughout the feedback thread).

Edited by Koniving, 27 May 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Beautiful Konniving, thanks! I didn't realize that engine size determined lift as well as JJ heat. I thought that was tied to JJ Class and number of JJs equipped. Everything else you posted confirms what I was thinking.

Thanks all! For new pilots, I hope this thread has helped!

[Tylerchu]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

...when you land from a jump, unless you use your jets just right, you automatically decelerate to 0.0 Kph and have to accelerate all over again in your new direction.

What do you mean by this?
How do I not decelerate to 0.0?

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Tylerchu, on 27 May 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

What do you mean by this?
How do I not decelerate to 0.0?

When you land, whether it's from jumping or falling, your speed instantly reduces to nothing- you come to a full stop- and you have to reaccelerate all over again. Your speedometer doesn't go down all the way, but that's because it's set to fall at a certain rate and your reacceleration catches up to it before it visually hits the 0 mark, despite your coming to a full stop. This can be used against you as predicting your jump arc will let an enemy know where you're going to land and fire just before you do- catching you on landing with much more carefully targeted damage than they could while you are in the air or running around.

The way to prevent this is to conserve jump jet fuel through the course of your jump by using multiple small burns to maintain altitude rather than go for a high arc- the lower and flatter your arc, the better. If you can time your jump jet burn so that at the same moment you would land (there's a little time flex in this, but not much), your fall speed hits 0 m/s, you will not be dropped to 0 kph speed, and will instead keep the lateral speed you had during your jump.

This is very difficult to do- I try to do it whenever I remember I can and I would guesstimate that I only succeed about ~30% of the time, but the resulting retention of speed is immensely valuable.

Keep in mind, though, this only works if you land with your feet facing roughly the same direction your jump arc is moving.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 27 May 2015 - 05:00 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Nightmare1, on 26 May 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

Hi all! I am not a new player here, but thought that this post belonged in the new player section so that pilots just starting MWO could benefit from it. I actually have been out of the MWO loop for a month, only playing occasionally due to RL and am getting back into it now. I've kept up with the patch notes, so I think I'm on top of everything. That being said, I want to make sure that I've got the following three topics straight:

1) Movemnt Archtypes
2) Engine Ratings
3) JJs

1) Archetypes still dictate your Mech movement and agility. For example, a Huge will be more sluggish than a Large and definitely slower and less agile than a Small, even if they all have the same engine rating?

2) Engine rating determines your base agility in terms of turn rate, speed, accel/decel, and hill climb. Movement archetypes and quirks can modify those parameters though. For example, a Small Mech will automatically have all those baseline stats boosted, while a Huge will have them nerfed somewhat to make up for its size and firepower. Quirks stack on top of the archetype to either mitigate or compound its effects.

3) JJs still don't increase your turn speed because they can't be decoupled from the engine rating, yes?

I was asked to teach some new players in my Unit these three points, and want to make sure that my info/understanding is up to date. Thanks all!

Edit: I apologize for any typos! This keyboard drops letters sometimes.

As far as I can tell movement archetypes only affect the ability to climb hills.
Acceleration and deceleration are affected by tonnage, top speed and quirks, a 20 ton light with the exact same top speed and quirks as a 35 ton light will get moving and stop moving much faster than the 35 ton light. Just about any mech that can do more than 100kph can accelerate and decelerate faster than the throttle slider will allow, using throttle decay or binding full throttle and invert throttle to easily accessible keys allows you to take full advantage of the agility of these mechs.
Turn speed is directly linked to top speed.

[Huracan1]

Where can i buy a JJ for a Raven??

[Satan n stuff]

Huracan1, on 29 May 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

Where can i buy a JJ for a Raven??

Wrong thread, but anyway the only Raven variants you can equip jump jets on are the Raven 4X and the Huginn Hero Raven. Jump jets are listed under equipment in the mechlab. They can only be equipped on the torso and legs, so if you've selected an arm or the head you won't see them in the item list.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 30 May 2015 - 12:20 AM.

[happy mech]

1) movement archetypes
first link http://mwomercs.com/...ement-behavior/
shorter version, big mechs cannot climb hills that smaller mechs can

2) engine ratings
max speed, twisting speed and turning speed are derived from engine rating
25 engine rating means roughly 10% more or less speed
25 engine rating above 250 means extra heatsink slot, below 250 means 1 less internal heatsink, 250 is 10 heatsinks (minimum to play a mech)
if you are considering an xl engine instead of standard, the xl should be 50 rating more (20% speed) to justify the fragility (that is my rule that helps me compare xl and std builds, does not need to work for you or others )
if you do not use the extra heatsinks, consider dropping the engine rating for more tonnage (std 245, std 270, std 295, std 320, xl 295 for example)
engines between 300 and 320 are usually not worth it (too heavy)

3) jjs
the more jjs, the higher you jump
you lose speed while jumping or landing
jumping does have a little forward thrust
jumping costs heat, more jjs add a little more heat
you have fuel for 4 seconds
you can turn while jumping, turning speed is based on engine rating
you can soften the fall with jjs, if you have enough jjs you can even make your mech rise