31 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

So, is it time for PGI to seriously address the fact that a 20 ton Locust can be detected by sensors just as easily as a 100 ton Atlas? Beagle Active Probe, ECM, general sensors, detection modules... They all treat a 20 ton Mech the same as a 100 ton Mech.

With the Light Mech queue very low owing to Light Mechs's inability to kill enemies as well as larger Mechs, perhaps it's time to make Light Mechs useful by allowing them to approach the enemy more closely before they are detected by sensors.

Anyone think this should be a fairky high priority given the impending Steam release where the game will be technically criticized by thousands of new players? I mean, just imagine the lashing this game will receive as a "simulator" where vehicles with small radar profiles have the same detection range as targets with enormous radar profiles...

[Templar Dane]

Bringing in the ability to go to passive radar would be nice. Would be a good excuse to nerf ecm as well.

[Kristov Kerensky]

The Mechs are all supposed to be in the same height range, PGI's scaling for the masses is the only reason a Locust isn't almost as tall as an Atlas like it supposed to be(15m Atlas, 12m Locust).

And what does size actually have to do with sensor profiles? Seems to me that since we currently have stealth aircraft that show up on radar as something the size of a sparrow(the actual bird) then I really don't think SIZE is the actual determining factor.

I would think it probably has to do with tonnage(20 or 100 tons, movement is going to be detectable for a LONG ways), the fact that there's a working fusion reactor on each Mech(which can be detected despite the best shielding from outside of atmosphere), and lets not even bring up all the OTHER ways Mechs can scan for enemies, since they've been brought up so many times before when this exact same topic is brought up.

Now, if we had stealth armor, you might have a point, but as it stands..nope. If you have a LoS and are within 750m, you get target info stock. BAP and Adv Sensors will knock that up to over 1km. But again, LoS is required, so without that, you do NOT know where a Light is if it's sneaky.

I manage to sneak up on people all the time in Panther, Raven, Urby, Atlas and Direwolf, so I don't think sensor detection by size is an issue.

People having more brains then my dog's chewtoys...that's an issue, but since PGI seems to suffer from it, I don't think they'll fix that issue with the playerbase, do you?

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 08 June 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Lugh]

You need to learn proper ways of sneaking son. That means keeping your profile low and staying out of open spaces.

People complain about me sneaking up on them all the time, because 1) I don't go where they think I should be going.

2) when an entire lance follows me to do it OH LOOK FLANKING REAR HITS FOR THE WIN. And reactions of What just happened?

I see a lot of people complaining about how everyone always does this or always does that. And very little of innovation with getting to different engagement areas to change the dynamic.

[FupDup]

It would be a nice way to create at least some modest tradeoff for not using the largest mech in each weight class.

...Which is probably a big part of why it won't happen. :\

[Mechteric]

I'm down with any kind of nice radar treatment, the game needs a change up there.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 08 June 2015 - 12:03 PM.

[process]

Shouldn't be linked to size per se, but role, which I supposed would end up mostly affecting small light mechs. I could also see outliers receiving sensor buffs, like the Atlas and other command mechs.

Edited by process, 08 June 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[Hobo Dan]

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 June 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

I would think it probably has to do with tonnage(20 or 100 tons, movement is going to be detectable for a LONG ways), the fact that there's a working fusion reactor on each Mech(which can be detected despite the best shielding from outside of atmosphere), and lets not even bring up all the OTHER ways Mechs can scan for enemies, since they've been brought up so many times before when this exact same topic is brought up.

So instead of Mech Size, use engine rating. A bigger fusion engine makes you easier to detect. This would have a similar effect to what OP is suggesting as 20 ton mechs generally have smaller fusion engines than 35 ton lights.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Hobo Dan, on 08 June 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

So instead of Mech Size, use engine rating. A bigger fusion engine makes you easier to detect. This would have a similar effect to what OP is suggesting as 20 ton mechs generally have smaller fusion engines than 35 ton lights.

It's not the size of the engine that makes them so easy to find from orbit, it's how they function, so 100 or 400, you'll ping on sensors in orbit the moment you power that baby up.

And I happen to have the same size engines in some of my Lights as my Mediums AND Heavies, even some of my Assaults, so that's a totally bogus argument regardless.

BTech, everyone had the same sensor ranges, everyone was within a few meters of the same height, and we won't even get into all the offboard systems Mechs can and do tap into to get better intel. There are special rules for different sensor profiles, but when you really look at them, they are just as silly, as they tend to be based on size as well. 12m is 12m, 20 ton or 100 ton, when something that tall walks on 2 legs, it's easy to detect it a LONG way off, and that doesn't even begin to touch on magscan or the other high tech toys BTech uses for sensors.

And again, in MWO, if you can't SEE it, you don't get sensor info, you don't know it's there unless you have a UAV up or it's close enough to register on your seismic AND you aren't moving yourself. I've snuck around with my Dire and Atlas just as easily as my Panther, my Raven is actually harder to sneak around with, ECM on disrupt OR counter gives you away. LoS sensors in this game, no need to give different sizes different ranges.

OP isn't asking for extra sensor systems, he's trying to get Lights their own unique 'in your ass before you can target them' sensor profile. That's already IN the game, it's called sneaking, and lots of us do it already....in 100 ton Mechs.

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 08 June 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[Matthew Ace]

I feel that each mech should get their own sensor FOV (seeing doritos; not to be confused with the adjustable FOV) and sensor range.

[PhoenixFire55]

Active radar should be able to detect ANY mech within 3km range ignoring cover. PGI made us all run in passive mode and only able to detect mechs within 800m range in direct LoS. This is already a ton of BS that comes from tiny maps that we have. On proper 24 x 24 km maps we can start talking about detectability of different mech classes, but not here. As is any kind of detection we have can be done with ... eyes. I don't need that giant red box around your Locust to see it and shoot it, meaning that our current sensors act merely as IFF indicators.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 09 June 2015 - 01:32 AM.

[JC Daxion]

i have been having the same thought about sensors.. Sensors really need to be brought into the game.. Basic, standard, advanced ect... Some mechs should not be able to bring higher grade sensors.. there is a ton of lore about this, Wish it was added.


the entire thing can be hand picked and hard coded, like quirks.. all mediums don't have to be the same sensor range,, could add lots of flavor to different mechs, especially the lesser used ones. Mech commander II had a great sensor system in it.

add weight for more advanced sensors.. some mechs would have the option to add better ones. could be really cool and add another layer of depth, beyond just adding a BAP.

PhoenixFire55, on 09 June 2015 - 01:32 AM, said:

I don't need that giant red box around your Locust to see it and shoot it, meaning that our current sensors act merely as IFF indicators.

No but you do need it to see what parts have open armor, what weapon load outs are installed, ect.. all are extremely valuable.

Edited by JC Daxion, 09 June 2015 - 02:45 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

JC Daxion, on 09 June 2015 - 02:30 AM, said:

No but you do need it to see what parts have open armor, what weapon load outs are installed, ect.. all are extremely valuable.

Which brings us to another important question. Should detection range and see loadout / damaged parts ranges be same? But as I said, all these discussions are pointless as long as all we have is direct LoS passive sensor detection.

[Almond Brown]

JC Daxion, on 09 June 2015 - 02:30 AM, said:

stuff

No but you do need it to see what parts have open armor, what weapon load outs are installed, ect.. all are extremely valuable.

So you want that info provided from targets you can't actually see? You want it via what method, detection sensors? How is a sensor to determine open section on a non-visible target? At least with direct LoS, one can suspend belief that the Sensors are providing a mapping of the visual target, thus indicating areas of missing mass of a known entity.

MWO has many Tech upgrades that increase the ability to get that Data at long ranges if that is what is wanted. But see Rule #1 below...

Adding more weigh to get more Sensor range would end the same way as the current Tech is used.

Rule #1 - If it don't Dakka or Wub, 99.9% of players ain't carrying it, especially if it takes away slots or adds weight.

The IS Command Console and Clan versions of said gear prove that. Level 1(1t) for Clan and almost 0(zero) use of the I.S. CC(3T) is the norm. That is not a coincidence btw.

Edited by Almond Brown, 09 June 2015 - 05:17 AM.

[Gattsus]

One day

[Mavairo]

Prosperity Park, on 08 June 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

So, is it time for PGI to seriously address the fact that a 20 ton Locust can be detected by sensors just as easily as a 100 ton Atlas? Beagle Active Probe, ECM, general sensors, detection modules... They all treat a 20 ton Mech the same as a 100 ton Mech.

With the Light Mech queue very low owing to Light Mechs's inability to kill enemies as well as larger Mechs, perhaps it's time to make Light Mechs useful by allowing them to approach the enemy more closely before they are detected by sensors.

Anyone think this should be a fairky high priority given the impending Steam release where the game will be technically criticized by thousands of new players? I mean, just imagine the lashing this game will receive as a "simulator" where vehicles with small radar profiles have the same detection range as targets with enormous radar profiles...

World of warships does this, and it is honestly the Destroyer's saving grace. Even with it's torpedoes that can kill or maim a battleship in two salvos. If it weren't near undetectable until it's in torp range it wouldn't survive. Even with it's very low profile, and super agility, and high speed. (ie what we have with light mechs now). It's infuriating as a battleship captain sometimes, since I'll have cleared a sector of fire with my big guns, only to find mystery torpedoes coming towards me, and having to immediately start evasive maneuvers or die. It's awesome.

I'd be all for the smaller mechs, getting a stealth factor.

Edited by Mavairo, 09 June 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[Ekyo]

Prosperity Park, on 08 June 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

With the Light Mech queue very low owing to Light Mechs's inability to kill enemies as well as larger Mechs, ...

That's a joke right? Light 'mechs, admitted not all of them, have ridiculous damage potential compared to tonnage, size and speed

[Dimento Graven]

Prosperity Park, on 08 June 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

So, is it time for PGI to seriously address the fact that a 20 ton Locust can be detected by sensors just as easily as a 100 ton Atlas?

...

No.

Quote

Beagle Active Probe, ECM, general sensors, detection modules... They all treat a 20 ton Mech the same as a 100 ton Mech.

...

Can we frickin' assume that a 20 ton 'mech with a fusion engine, electronics out the yin yang, energy weapons to maintain charges on, and something that is moving at 100+ kph, EVEN THOUGH, it's only 20 tons, is going to be very, Very, VERY, VERY 'noisy' (em noise, audible sound waves, measurable ground vibrations, et al), even at 2000 meters?

So... At that VERY short range (we're not even talking a half-mile here), a 20 ton 'mech will be as noticeable as a 100 ton 'mech, regardless of the sensor package, or profile, or whatever other silly notion someone wants to dream up.

[Almond Brown]

How about we ask PGI to remove the "warning" from Light Mechs who carry ECM... A compromise and force the larger unit who don't want, or don't like getting snuck up on, will have to carry Seismic. The ECM proximity "warning" is what kills Lights, with ECM of all things, that get detected when that should not be so.

Edited by Almond Brown, 09 June 2015 - 09:11 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Almond Brown, on 09 June 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

How about we ask PGI to remove the "warning" from Light Mechs who carry ECM... A compromise and force the larger unit who don't want, or don't like getting snuck up on, will have to carry Seismic. The ECM proximity "warning" is what kills Lights, with ECM of all things, that get detected when that should not be so.

I disagree. All that the warning does is let me know that, somewhere within a 250 meter radius there's a light with ECM. >>IF<< I happen to have a UAV, I "may" launch it just to find out where the little bugger is.

I'm sorry but from the perspective of someone who has repeatedly shot enough gauss and lasers into light 'mechs to level 3 Atlas's only to have the light 'mech dance off merrily away with MAYBE an open location, no, let's not exacerbate weak hit detection, poorly implemented HSR, non-sensicle quirks, and ping/lag induced warp issues, to allow light 'mechs to become the new "assault" class.

By eliminating the 'warning' of sensor/HUD interference when an ECM'd 'mech is near only adds to the supposed 'god factor' that the anti-ECM crowd are complaining about now. Leave that is, and find something else, less imbalancing to suggest.