23 replies to this topic

[Gwydion Ward]

Ok... this'll be a bit long-winded, so fair warning.

Quirks. They have been out now for quite a while, and some people love them, some wish that some mech's had different quirks than they have, and some hate them, such as quirks that 'negatively' affect a mech (ERLL's that have 4 second burn times anyone?).

Personally, I hate the entire quirk system as a whole "As it currently is". And here's why.

Ever since Clan mech's came out, ive been playing nearly exclusively Clan mech's. NOT because i feel they are an " I Win " button, Not because i feel they are Overpowered, and not because i think clan weapons are 'better' than IS (honestly i think they've been nerfed so badly that i'd rather have IS weapons ON my clan mech.... but that's a different story)

So.. Why have i been playing nearly exclusively Clan mechs? One, I've always loved the Clan Mech's in the books and cartoons/anime's (Timberwolf and Vultures were always my favorite mech's, I've used them in every mechwarrior game ive been able to use them in). Second. The "freedom" to customize the mech's weapon load-out to how I want to play. Say i want to make a ERLL + LRM Timberwolf.. i can do that. Want to make a SRM + Pulse-Laser brawler Vulture?.. hey i can do that. LBX20 and MPL Loki?... can do that as well. Clan Mech's simply give you more 'choices' over IS Mechs.

Now.. that is not to say that you cant customize IS Mech's to fit your own play-style. You can take a Boars Head and load it up with 4 MPL's and a LBX10 if you wanted, or a Wolverine with 2 AC2's and a Flamer if you wished. Heck you can even throw 2 AC2's on an Urby and annoy the heck out of people from long-range.

But.... the problem that happens when the Quirks were added in, and its the reason i currently 'hate' the current Quirks (again, as they currently are), is that it forces people to use 'specific' load-outs on IS mech's.

For instance. My Thunderbolt TDR-5S. Its load-out generally included an LBX10, a MG, 3MPL's, and either a LPL, or a LL with an SRM. No idea if that's a 'elitist' build or not, but its what i liked to run. But... we have the happy 'quirk' system now. And the quirks for the 5S?

(the relevent ones to this post are)
Medium laser Heat generation and durration -12%
Large Laser range and cooldown +12%

Why do i feel this is an issue? Simple. It forces me to change my MPL's out for regular ML's, and makes me have to use a LL instead of a LPL. In order to use the mech to its 'fullest'. I MUST use those weapons. Or if i face off against a 5S that IS useing weapons that 'match' that specific "weapon Quirk"... and im using my own loadout listed above. that 5S who's useing the 'tailed quirk-loadout' Will have an advantage over me every single time.

He will overheat less, he'll fire faster, and have further range than i do. And this is without adding in any bonuses from weapon modules he may be using.

"My" build, the one i want to use, is instantly 'less effective' than his is.. and we haven't even gotten into 'player skill' yet. I START OUT handicapped, because i am NOT using the pre-selected weapons that some Dev has decided 'should' to be used on that particular mech'

Here's another example.

The Battlemaster BRL-1G

Its relevant quirks for this topic?

Medium laser Range +12%
Medium laster heat generation and durration -12%
PPC Velocity +20%

What does this do?.. Well it pretty much forces you to load out an assault with nothing but ML's and perhaps a PPC or two. You cant put any LL's on it.. cant put a LPL on it... and heck, you cant even use MPL's. In order to NOT start out with a 'handicap' when faced off against a Battlemaster who IS using the 'tailor made quirk load-out', you yourself must ALSO be running a load-out that 'matches' the quirks.

And that is my problem with the current Quirk system as a whole.

It REMOVES player choice, it REMOVES customization from a range of Mech's that are already limited in their load-outs by 'fixed' hard-points (the IS Mech's), And it essentially 'punishes' people who do go 'against the grain', by making their mech's 'less effective' than another mech, without player skill even being added to the equation. Even some Clan Omni-Pods are afflicted with this shoddy quirk design (im sorry, but 'punishing' Clan players by making LL's take 4 seconds to do their full damage is NOT a way to balance a weapon or load-out combination, make the cool-down longer, or raise the heat 'slightly' if you need to.. but dont force a player to sit there and 'stare' at the enemy for ages.)

I am all for 'mechanic' quirks added to some mechs to encourage their use again (such as increased Structure/armor to Side Torso's of Hunchbacks). But i 100% Feel that WEAPON Quirks have done nothing but HURT MWO. Both in game-play and in the actual game-mechanic of 'customizing' your Mech.

I honestly feel that all Quirks related to a 'specific' weapon type, need to be removed (if not all weapon quirks in general). We have Modules for that. And those modules ADD to player Customization. While 'weapon quirks' REMOVE player Customization. If you really really want to add 'quirks' to mechs.. Keep them all "mechanical". Such as Torso twist speed... or reinforced Structure on certain spots you notice are always removed in order to 'strip' a mech... make them stop faster, or start moving faster.. maybe turn faster.

But stay AWAY from 'weapon' quirks... As all your doing is removing player choice, and 'creating' bread-n-butter builds that end up being "you MUST use THIS loadout" situations.

Edited by ShadowWard, 08 June 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Zfailboat]

Nice post Shadow.

To some extent I agree with you, to another extent I don't. Let me explain.

1. with regards to your thunderbolt 5S, you are correct that your load out does not get the full benefits of the quirks. However, you were happy to run it before there was any quirks, now with quirks you still get some bonuses: those that still apply to your build.

ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 15.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 15.00 ENERGY RANGE: 12.50 % ENERGY COOLDOWN: 12.50 %LASER DURATION: -12.50 % NERGY HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 % MISSILE COOLDOWN: 15.00 %

Now switch your LPL out for a LL, and your MPL's out for Ml's and you get an even bigger benefit. However even without this - your build is essentially 15 - 12.5% better than it was in a lot of aspects before the quirks happened. so your mech got better - just not "Optimal"

The quirks do take some dynamic thinking to be able to utilise them to their fullest. For example I love sniping more than brawling. so take the thunderbolt 5ss. This mech has the below quirk in particular - ENERGY RANGE: 25.00 % along with ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -15.00 % ENERGY COOLDOWN: 15.00 % Put some ERLL's on this thing and it out damages, out ranges, has better burn times, and less heat than clan mechs.

However the above is just some examples for you where you can adapt things to suit your style outside of the "standard" quirk uses.

As for clans, I don't agree with the negative quirks at all on the weapon systems. I would prefer to see them negative quirk the components themselves similar to how the buffed the hunchback / Ravens.

Instead of penalising the weapons - either penalise the speed / mobility of the mech, or the armour levels on the components themselves.

Timberwolf A has a nasty left torso, then make that torso -25% Armour / internals. turn it into a glass cannon component - make the component itself the target. like the hunchback has its hunch as a target. however don't penalise the rest of the mech due to that one omnipod.

[IraqiWalker]

I understand what you're saying OP, but no one is forcing you to run quirk builds. My LCT-1V has super duper ERLL quirks, I still run 1MPL+4MGs on it whenever I want to.

The beauty of the quirk system is that you are not punished if you don't run quirk builds. You can be rewarded for running quirk builds, but if you don't run them, your mech isn't losing anything. It's not being penalized, and it's not being hurt, in terms of damage. If my mech has long range quirks, and I like playing short range with it, I'll still run short range builds.

The quirk system has been phenomenal in balancing the game. It's the only way to effectively balance Clan vs. IS, without doing something really stupid. I like it, I think it should be expanded, and used in better ways. Weapon specific quirks are not the only way to do it. Things like improving JJ performance through quirks could really help out mechs like the Summoner, or Nova, or the Highlander, and Victor.

[Gwydion Ward]

Zfailboat, on 08 June 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Nice post Shadow.

To some extent I agree with you, to another extent I don't. Let me explain.

1. with regards to your thunderbolt 5S, you are correct that your load out does not get the full benefits of the quirks. However, you were happy to run it before there was any quirks, now with quirks you still get some bonuses: those that still apply to your build.

ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 15.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 15.00 ENERGY RANGE: 12.50 % ENERGY COOLDOWN: 12.50 %LASER DURATION: -12.50 % NERGY HEAT GENERATION: -12.50 % MISSILE COOLDOWN: 15.00 %

Now switch your LPL out for a LL, and your MPL's out for Ml's and you get an even bigger benefit. However even without this - your build is essentially 15 - 12.5% better than it was in a lot of aspects before the quirks happened. so your mech got better - just not "Optimal"

The quirks do take some dynamic thinking to be able to utilise them to their fullest. For example I love sniping more than brawling. so take the thunderbolt 5ss. This mech has the below quirk in particular - ENERGY RANGE: 25.00 % along with ENERGY HEAT GENERATION: -15.00 % ENERGY COOLDOWN: 15.00 % Put some ERLL's on this thing and it out damages, out ranges, has better burn times, and less heat than clan mechs.

However the above is just some examples for you where you can adapt things to suit your style outside of the "standard" quirk uses.

As for clans, I don't agree with the negative quirks at all on the weapon systems. I would prefer to see them negative quirk the components themselves similar to how the buffed the hunchback / Ravens.

Instead of penalising the weapons - either penalise the speed / mobility of the mech, or the armour levels on the components themselves.

Timberwolf A has a nasty left torso, then make that torso -25% Armour / internals. turn it into a glass cannon component - make the component itself the target. like the hunchback has its hunch as a target. however don't penalise the rest of the mech due to that one omnipod.

Yea.. i know and understand your viewpoint. But i tried to get across that im not so much against the "weapon type" quirks. But i am against the "specific weapon" quirks. (ie: Im ok with +12 cooldown to Energy. But i dislike the use of +12% to Medium Laser range).

I sorta consider the "+12% Energy cooldown" as a "mechanical" quirk, not a strait up "weapon" quirk. And its those "weapon quirks" that i feel break the game in that it removes player choices and sort of 'pushes' people to use specific weapons on specific mech's, despite the fact that they 'might' want to use something else. Otherwise, they suffer a handycap, when facing off against someone who 'is' following the lemming-train of 'do what the dev's want and use these specific weapons'.

[Zfailboat]

The key is to build your quirks for what suits you. EG thunderbolt 5ss with 7 MPL's will destroy my Thunderbolt 5ss with 3 ERLL and 4 MLS's at close range. but put him 1000M away which is what I have used the quirks for and his MPL's may as well be ice cream cones.

No build is pefect - everything has flaws. quirks will never be perfect - they will always have flaws. The idea is trying to match - the right mech, with the right quirks to YOUR playstyle.

for example, your Thunderbolt 5s - LBX 10, MPL's maybe SRM maybe LPL.
Orion M - LBX 10 cool down 40% - spread -10%, missile cool down (Generic 25% all types), energy heat, cool down and duration 12.5% (Generic all types)

it has 1 autocannon slot 3 laser slots and 3 missile slots. Its basically the exact mech your a looking for in your thunderbolt, still in the heavy range, with considerable bonuses.

Quirks are all about - right mech, right pilot, right bonuses. There is something for everyone if you look hard enough.

[IraqiWalker]

ShadowWard, on 08 June 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

Yea.. i know and understand your viewpoint. But i tried to get across that im not so much against the "weapon type" quirks. But i am against the "specific weapon" quirks. (ie: Im ok with +12 cooldown to Energy. But i dislike the use of +12% to Medium Laser range).

I sorta consider the "+12% Energy cooldown" as a "mechanical" quirk, not a strait up "weapon" quirk. And its those "weapon quirks" that i feel break the game in that it removes player choices and sort of 'pushes' people to use specific weapons on specific mech's, despite the fact that they 'might' want to use something else. Otherwise, they suffer a handycap, when facing off against someone who 'is' following the lemming-train of 'do what the dev's want and use these specific weapons'.

This is where you and I disagree. The specific weapon quirks make that particular weapon better, but they don't penalize me for running a different weapon. Simply because no two weapons are on the same level. If a thunderbolt had energy quirks, and MPL quirks, I can still run LLs on it, and they are not penalized. Simply because the two weapons aren't on the same footing. Now if the MPLs, and LLs were equal to one another in all aspects, then yes, the LL mech would be underperforming, but that's not the case.

Most people will tend to slap the weapons that take the most advantage of the quirks. However, those of us who don't run full quirk builds, aren't penalized, simply because we're no operating in the same theater as them. That MPL mech is good at short range engagements. My (ER)LL mech is good at long range engagements. He's not scoring a hit on me until he gets very close to me.

The DRG-5N has great quirks for the UAC5, however, if I slap in a Gauss Rifle, I am still getting a very scary Gauss Rifle that will out-range that UAC5 build easily, and punch better at long range.

Quirks buff almost every set up on the mech. Just because one set up is buffed more than the others, doesn't mean that's the way to go. Since you will need to fit into a very specific niche for you to really utilize the full quirks (like the TDR-9S being only good for long range sniping. One light mech under 100 meters, and that TDR is toast)

[Gwydion Ward]

IraqiWalker, on 08 June 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

I understand what you're saying OP, but no one is forcing you to run quirk builds. My LCT-1V has super duper ERLL quirks, I still run 1MPL+4MGs on it whenever I want to.

The beauty of the quirk system is that you are not punished if you don't run quirk builds.

The thing is though.. are 'are' being punnished in a way for not following the quirks. In that if your Raven with ERLL quirks has ML's on it, and you face off against a ERLL equiped Raven, even at medium/short range, you'll be at a dissadvantage, because that ERLL equiped rave will be firering faster than normal, have shorter cooldowns than normal.. and even overheat less than normal.

Quote

You can be rewarded for running quirk builds, but if you don't run them, your mech isn't losing anything. It's not being penalized, and it's not being hurt, in terms of damage. If my mech has long range quirks, and I like playing short range with it, I'll still run short range builds.

Your being rewareded for using specific weapons yes. By having an 'automatic' bonuses added to the effectiveness of your mech, regardless of your player skill. But, If you 'dont' use those specific weapons.. your not so much 'penalized', as you are 'handycapped' against someone who IS using those specific weapons. Again, for instance, if you take two mech's who have a bonus to a 'specific' weapon type ... say Medium Lasers. Have one mech loaded out with only medium lasers, and face it off against someone who's using Medium Pulse Lasers.

Before player skill even enters the table, the one with Medium lasers is already goign to be firing faster, running cooler, and doing more damage 'even sooner' than the one with the MPL's. Now.. MPL's run hotter than regular ML's, thts a given.. so the one useing MPL's has to carry more Heat-sinks than the one carrying strait ML's.. Even to the point of having to sacrifice Armor for those extra Heatsinks. BUT... thanks to those quirks... The player useing the ML's is running 'cooler' than he otherwise would. He can afford to drop heat-sinks and upp his armor to max. He's firing 'faster' than normal.. perhaps 'matching' the dps of those MPL's. And he's now even able to start doing that damage at an even further range than normal for ML's.

Every advantage is suddenly 'stacked' in favor of the pilot who is 'obeying the law of the quirks'. And the pilot who isnt, starts out at a disadvantage. Simply because he might like the sound of MPL's over ML.s

THAT is what i have a problem with.

Quote

The quirk system has been phenomenal in balancing the game. It's the only way to effectively balance Clan vs. IS, without doing something really stupid. I like it, I think it should be expanded, and used in better ways. Weapon specific quirks are not the only way to do it. Things like improving JJ performance through quirks could really help out mechs like the Summoner, or Nova, or the Highlander, and Victor.

The only way the quirk system has balanced the game, in my honest opinion.... is by forcing players to NOT use weapons. How many timberwolves do you see using ERLL's now? the vast majority are back to using LPL's (just like they did back when ERLL's got hit with a 4-second burn time nerf when Clan's first launched.... everyone completely stopped using ERLL's, and simply used LPL's instead) How about Stormcrows?... quite a few of them went to using SPL's or ERSL's instead of Medium lasers.. due to the 'quirk nerf'. Quite a few more have simply forgone energy weapons completely and now SRM splat everyone.


PGI seems to only ever do 3 things when it comes to 'balancing' Clan weapons. They either:

1) Make them hotter
2) Take away range.
3) Make their duration longer.


The one thing they NEVER seem to change?

The cooldown.

PGI's answer to Clan balance always seems to be to "force them to expose themselves longer". 3-4 second burn times on LL's force Clan players to 'stare' at an IS mech who happily fires off 2-3 splashes of THEIR LL's, while the IS mech is able to torso-twist in-between firing those 2-3 splashes.... all the while the Clan Mech is unable to torso-twist, because he's forced to wait 4 seconds before his weapon actually does its full damage.

But... balancing IS vs Clans is a differnt debate/topic, and one that'll be ongoing.....

I simply dont feel like the current 'weapon' quirks ADD anything to the game. And instead take AWAY quite a bit from it.

[IraqiWalker]

ShadowWard, on 08 June 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

The thing is though.. are 'are' being punnished in a way for not following the quirks. In that if your Raven with ERLL quirks has ML's on it, and you face off against a ERLL equiped Raven, even at medium/short range, you'll be at a dissadvantage, because that ERLL equiped rave will be firering faster than normal, have shorter cooldowns than normal.. and even overheat less than normal.

The rest I won't comment on, since balance is it's own furball, but that example demonstrates something specific. The build being run in the wrong way. The ML raven was always going to lose to the ERLL raven, even with god tier quirks, because it's not supposed to face it at long range. At short range you can win easily, simply because your MLs are already shorter burning, and colder, and then they are buffed further by the general quirks.

Much like the example I have above of the MPL TDR losing to the (ER)LL TDR, simply because if I keep him at range, his weapons don't exist. That has less to do with quirks, and more to do with countering builds.

Even with quirks removed, the results would be the exact same. the ERLL raven wins long and medium range engagements, and loses short range engagements. That's by virtue of the weapons.

Let's also not forget that the ML raven will virtually never over-heat compared to the ERLL one, simply because it could cram more DHS in there.

[2Slice]

Personally, I think quirks should be something people work towards, as opposed to 'omnipotent' choices by PGI.

The team at PGI are awesome, don't get me wrong, but this is about philosophy, not character.

Let us work, like skills, towards quirks, not just have them handed to us and then adjusted.

The best way to run a game, is to offer freedom. If I like (for example as above), the Thunderbolt 5S, let me use just that mech, and build it's skills. It doesn't translate to all other mechs, it is simply that.

Obviously the skills need to be capped, and the cap may be the current quirks handed out freely.

Let a good, consistent mech pilot have a better mech than someone else, because they did what the idea behind it is: they practiced with it, and became better because of it.

PGI is wasting a lot of time trying to 'dicate' what quirks mechs should have. A much simpler solution is to let the players/customers decide what quirks they have on the mechs they play the most.

Freedom is a lot easier than constantly trying to play God, and then adjusting accordingly.

Cheers,

2Slice

[IraqiWalker]

2Slice, on 08 June 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Personally, I think quirks should be something people work towards, as opposed to 'omnipotent' choices by PGI.

The team at PGI are awesome, don't get me wrong, but this is about philosophy, not character.

Let us work, like skills, towards quirks, not just have them handed to us and then adjusted.

The best way to run a game, is to offer freedom. If I like (for example as above), the Thunderbolt 5S, let me use just that mech, and build it's skills. It doesn't translate to all other mechs, it is simply that.

Obviously the skills need to be capped, and the cap may be the current quirks handed out freely.

Let a good, consistent mech pilot have a better mech than someone else, because they did what the idea behind it is: they practiced with it, and became better because of it.

PGI is wasting a lot of time trying to 'dicate' what quirks mechs should have. A much simpler solution is to let the players/customers decide what quirks they have on the mechs they play the most.

Freedom is a lot easier than constantly trying to play God, and then adjusting accordingly.

Cheers,

2Slice

We already have that, it's called skills. Also, the last thing this game needs right now is more grinding. Especially for new players.

My Elited mech is already far and away superior to someone who just got theirs, or basic'd it only.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 08 June 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[2Slice]

Skills and quirks are different.

More grinding? I don't stop using a mech just because it's elited. ALL of my mechs are elited. This is an extension of it.

[IraqiWalker]

2Slice, on 08 June 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

Skills and quirks are different.

More grinding? I don't stop using a mech just because it's elited. ALL of my mechs are elited. This is an extension of it.

It still is more things to grind. While it's true that you never stop piloting a mech even after mastery (I have about 1200 drops in COM-2D post mastering), you still want to pilot other mechs, and for the record. The gap between new and veteran pilots is already MASSIVE. We don't need to make the New Player Experience any more hellish, because the MLs on their TDR fire half as much as mine, and generate double the heat. Not when we can make it a bit easier. They already have a hard time grasping how the heat system works, and what trigger discipline is.

Make an elite player a tough challenge, not an insurmountable obstacle.

For the record, this right here is the reason I don't pilot my DWF-Prime very often. Despite it being loaded with enough weapons that a single alpha puts me at over 80% heat, it ruins the gaming experience for any new player facing it, and is a real problem even for veterans.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 08 June 2015 - 07:23 PM.

[Vellron2005]

2Slice, on 08 June 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Personally, I think quirks should be something people work towards, as opposed to 'omnipotent' choices by PGI.

I agree, but noone will work activelly to reach the glory of Negative Quirks that make them completely unable to use Large Lasers on a Timberwolf..

I completely agree that the QUIRK system SHOULD be removed... here's why..

Most claims that support it state that the quirks give a mech character and uniqueness... yes, but they make it a one-trick pony. Use that loadout, or a "lesser" one..

Secondly, the quirks can make-or break a mech.. lets all just remember the recent TBR and SCR nerfs.. people have actually quit playing the game over those..

I firmly believe that the mech hardpoints and weapon choice are ENOUGH to make a mech unique and flavorufull.. it does not need quirks...

Why is the timberwolf special? Becouse of its missle pods and laser arms.. Why is the thunderbolt special? becouse of its lasers. Why is the atlas special? becouse its a 100-tonner with ecm... so why ruin that with quirks?

Especially negative quirks that make a mech worse at doing what it was designed to do.. (yes I'm looking at the Timberwolf)

Quirks are the DEV's way of puting quick-fix patches on mech ballance.. they can quirk anything to make a mech act differently.. it just shows that the dev's dont do proper ballancing and play-testing before putting a new mech in-game, but rather fix it later if the community wines enough about it..

Its just bad business strategy on the part of PGI..

Edited by Vellron2005, 09 June 2015 - 04:39 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Blah..

Moderator, please delete..

Edited by Vellron2005, 09 June 2015 - 04:41 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Vellron2005, on 09 June 2015 - 04:31 AM, said:

I completely agree that the QUIRK system SHOULD be removed... here's why..

Most claims that support it state that the quirks give a mech character and uniqueness... yes, but they make it a one-trick pony. Use that loadout, or a "lesser" one..

Secondly, the quirks can make-or break a mech.. lets all just remember the recent TBR and SCR nerfs.. people have actually quit playing the game over those..

I firmly believe that the mech hardpoints and weapon choice are ENOUGH to make a mech unique and flavorufull.. it does not need quirks...

Why is the timberwolf special? Becouse of its missle pods and laser arms.. Why is the thunderbolt special? becouse of its lasers. Why is the atlas special? becouse its a 100-tonner with ecm... so why ruin that with quirks?

Especially negative quirks that make a mech worse at doing what it was designed to do.. (yes I'm looking at the Timberwolf)

Quirks a the DEV's way of puting quick-fix patches on mech ballance.. they can quirk anything to make a mech act differently.. it just shows that the dev's dont do proper ballancing and play-testing before putting a new mech in-game, but rather fix it later if the community wines enough about it..

Its just bad business strategy on the part of PGI..

How on earth is a different load out than the max quirk one a "lesser loadout"? It's only lesser if there are some hypothetical weapons that perform like the quirked ones, but don't get benefits from the quirks.

That is one of the biggest misconceptions that people need to wake up to. Running a not full-quirk compliant loadout is not handicapped, or inferior in any way. Again:

If the mech has energy and ML quirks, and I run LLs on it, my LLs are still getting buffed. They're not inferior to the ML set up.

People REALLY need to understand that this whole "inferior" or "lesser" attribute doesn't exist while piloting loadouts that aren't geared towards full quirk obedience. The weapon systems play very differently from one another, to the point that running a different loadout is not really inferior.

Yes, the MPL TDR is very powerful. However, it is only powerful in it's range. Get the same TDR, and put ERLLs on it, and see how it melts the MPL one from 700 meters very easily. I don't know how people have tried to think about this, but it's BS to say the loadout is inferior.

Also, anyone who quit over the TBR and SCR fixes is an over-entitled child that has serious maturity issues. (I won't talk about those quirks for now, since we don't want to derail the thread)

Also, the quirk system has been, so far, the best and most precise balancing tool in the game. It has allowed for much better balancing decisions than the previous tech-impacting broad changes. (The TBR, and SCR still need more nerfs, but not to weapons, mobility.)

Vellron2005, on 09 June 2015 - 04:37 AM, said:

Blah..

Moderator, please delete..

You can just click the "delete" button yourself, mate. It's right by the "Edit" button.


EDIT: Also, if you want, I can delete my response to your post as well.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 09 June 2015 - 04:46 AM.

[Mercules]

No....


There are three things the Quirk system is supposed to do.... when it works properly.

1. Make up the difference between IS lower tech mechs and Clan higher tech mechs (which in some cases it went to far on but only because they didn't follow 2. and 3.)

2. Give certain mechs back their unique Battletech flavor (like HBK-4Gs actually using AC/20s again)

3. Make up for the mech following BT designs which didn't account for hitboxes and were more 'rule of cool'. Some mechs just have really poor design for taking hits and there is only so much you can do to spread hitboxes(Mr. Barnside Awesome).


Should quirks be removed? No, but they should probably continue to constantly re-evaluate them on a monthly basis and adjust them frequently.

[InspectorG]

Remove quirks and only 1 variant of each chassis will be fielded...just like before.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

One things for sure, the more I think about the word quirk, the more peculiar it seems to me, to see mechs with a laundry list of them!

But, I would not get rid of most of them. Armor, Structure and agility/mobility boosts are often very useful in basically any application.


The area where we need to readjust quirks the most is with weapons. And more with boating them so that weapons that are not being boated can see bigger boosts than when we can stack multiples together that would then naturally be stronger.

So all that we'd really need is to use better conditionals for when certain percent boosts can kick in, so I'd explore using the existing system that grants omni's additional boosts when using stock pods in more areas.

This way a mech that carried a single signature weapon (or two) could see strong boosts to improve that single weapon (or two), but trying to add more in trying to exploit boosts would either see the loss of or reduced percentages.


And a good way to reign in problematic laser boats is to fix the heat system, I say lower the heat cap and then raise dissipation as needed.

[IraqiWalker]

Praetor Knight, on 09 June 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

One things for sure, the more I think about the word quirk, the more peculiar it seems to me, to see mechs with a laundry list of them!

But, I would not get rid of most of them. Armor, Structure and agility/mobility boosts are often very useful in basically any application.


The area where we need to readjust quirks the most is with weapons. And more with boating them so that weapons that are not being boated can see bigger boosts than when we can stack multiples together that would then naturally be stronger.

So all that we'd really need is to use better conditionals for when certain percent boosts can kick in, so I'd explore using the existing system that grants omni's additional boosts when using stock pods in more areas.

This way a mech that carried a single signature weapon (or two) could see strong boosts to improve that single weapon (or two), but trying to add more in trying to exploit boosts would either see the loss of or reduced percentages.


And a good way to reign in problematic laser boats is to fix the heat system, I say lower the heat cap and then raise dissipation as needed.

LITERALLY all of this. Every single point is what I think should be done.






I also think that the non-signature weapons, as you called them, should receive strong quirks. For example: in the case of the TDR-5SS. Give it powerful SRM quirks. The mech won't be able to run SRMs, AND 7MPLs, while mainting the top speed it does.

Diminishing returns on heavily stacked weapons would be great. For example: 1 MPL will give you 50% reductions across the board. 2, and 3, the same. 4th MPL that jumps in, the benefits drop to 30%, 5th, benefits drop to 25, 6th, 21%, 7th 18%.

Bear in mind, these are just example numbers that I literally typed out as I went along. Just as an illustration.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

IraqiWalker, on 09 June 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

I also think that the non-signature weapons, as you called them, should receive strong quirks. For example: in the case of the TDR-5SS. Give it powerful SRM quirks. The mech won't be able to run SRMs, AND 7MPLs, while mainting the top speed it does.

Diminishing returns on heavily stacked weapons would be great. For example: 1 MPL will give you 50% reductions across the board. 2, and 3, the same. 4th MPL that jumps in, the benefits drop to 30%, 5th, benefits drop to 25, 6th, 21%, 7th 18%.

Bear in mind, these are just example numbers that I literally typed out as I went along. Just as an illustration.

Yeah, I can see that, the question is would it be better to have quirks for SRMs or simply for missile weapons, since it is one missile hardpoint on the 5SS?

---

And I've been thinking that one way to really help out SRMs, and missile weapons overall, is to give them a new tracking system.

Right now SRMs basically slow dead-fire scatterguns, spreading damage everywhere, and being rather ammo inefficient. An easy solution is adding more missiles per ton, reducing spread and then raising their velocity. LRMs are reliant on Locks, and Streaks just don't feel right IMHO.

So I'd rather see missiles follow the crosshair / reticle around when fired, until they hit something or reach max range. This would be with keeping their current velocities, and exploring a ripple fire pattern to reduce FLD a tad is what I'd look at for balancing with their new guidance in place.

So I'd start with five missile streams:
LRM 20 would be at four missiles at a time,
LRM 15 and SRM 6 three missiles at a time,
LRM 10 and SRM 4 two missiles at a time, and
LRM 5 and SRM 2 would be at one missile at a time.
The difference between Clan and IS could then be the delay between missiles in a stream, so that one has a shorter burst than the other.

Artemis, TAG and NARC would then increase how missiles readjust their flight path when the crosshair / reticle is moved around until they hit or reach max range. Then ECM would simply be a counter to this factor.
Streaks would retain their Locks only as the ammo saving measure (and not be blocked by ECM), and indirect LRMs I'd explore Locks as Fire and Forget only when combined with TAG and/or NARC.

So basically, allowing missiles to hit were we aim allows them to have more synergy with other weapon systems and be more ammo efficient, hopefully reducing the need to boat and then leaving space for when MRMs arrive, which are supposed to be dead-fire missiles/rockets, compared to SRMs and LRMs.