133 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 02 September 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

No, they don't get a bonus unless using flak ammo (lulz). What makes them good against air is their extreme range and low BV investment. Range is really important when playing with aerospace in a ground battle because of weird rules, or at least when I played with those in Megamek. LBX are generally better for dealing with Aerospace however, since precision ammo is much more useful for standard ACs than flak ammo.

This means that the LRM5 example is also still good against air, because the range gap is only 3 hexes... (21 hexes is still pretty good).

Or the Clan LPL, with its wonderful 20 hex range and -2 to-hit modifier...

[wanderer]

Of course, the Clan LPL and the AC/2 came to be in entirely different time periods.

And you can't AMS autocannon fire, while you can chop small LRM flights into nothing.

[FupDup]

wanderer, on 02 September 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

Of course, the Clan LPL and the AC/2 came to be in entirely different time periods.

And you can't AMS autocannon fire, while you can chop small LRM flights into nothing.

Compare a Clan class-2 AC to the Clan LPL and the result is basically the same.

Also, the LRM5 was in the same 3025 era as the IS AC/2, which didn't have AMS. And even when you fast-forward the timeline, sacrificing 200% more weight for an AC/2 and having 50% less damage just to bypass AMS isn't what I would call a good trade...

Edited by FupDup, 02 September 2015 - 06:32 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, they don't get a bonus unless using flak ammo (lulz)

Flak ammo only inflicts half the normal damage on all targets except moving VTOLs and Fighters (AeroSpace and Conventional), WiGEs and conventional infantry. Used in attacks against moving VTOLs, Fighters and WiGEs, Flak ammunition confers a -2 to-hit modifier.

Flak ammo gives them a -2 bonus which is better than the -1 you get from LBX

For dealing with mechs you can just carry a ton of standard ammo and switch between the ammo types. So your point about LBX being better against mechs is wrong.

Quote

This means that the LRM5 example is also still good against air, because the range gap is only 3 hexes... (21 hexes is still pretty good).

Not really. LRM5s dont get a -2 to hit. Also an AMS on the aircraft has a good chance of shooting down all the missiles.

Quote

Or the Clan LPL, with its wonderful 20 hex range and -2 to-hit modifier...

Thats an option for the Clans. But IS cant use Clan LPLs. IS have to use AC2s with Flak Ammo.


The point is if there were PVE aircraft in the game they could give the AC/2 a bonus vs aircraft. They wouldnt necessarily have to add flak ammo or ammo switching to the game. The AC/2 could just have built-in bonus that makes it do double or possibly even triple damage vs aircraft. Making the AC/2 into the best anti-aircraft weapon would at least give the weapon an actual role in the game. Unlike now where it does nothing better than any other weapon.

Maybe allow the airstrike bomber to be shot down (and make airstrikes more powerful than artillery because it can be shot down). Or maybe have predator drone type consumables that fly in circles around the map shooting at enemy mechs. Or possibly a gamemode with destructible bases and a capturable airbase in the center or something, and controlling the airbase will periodically launch PVE planes to attack the enemy team's base. So having jagermechs with anti-aircraft guns might actually be a thing (lulz).

I cant think of any other way the AC/2 will ever be a useful weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 02 September 2015 - 06:53 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Apnu, on 02 September 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

I know its heresy, but I've run a JM6-S with 2xAC2, 2xAC5. It shreds things fast. Granted its got AC2 cool down quirks

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...953805bbfbb9813

I tried the AC2s on the BJs and the time-to-kill was much longer for the face time I had to endure, so I think the AC2 needs to be paired with something to be effective. Either 3+ AC2s or something else like large lasers or PPCs.

I think, stats wise, the AC2 is fine.

Try it with An AC/10 and two AC/2. You can fit that easily on a STD260 with more armor and the same ammo for only a modest decrease in total DPS. I use it, and it's awesome.

AC/2 on the BJ-1 and BJ-1DC are significantly colder and faster than vanilla AC/2, but they still run slightly too hot to be paired with anything. RoF is fine on those two variants (but I wouldn't complain about a further nudge), but heat should be closer to 0.5 rather than the 0.75 it is now. You shouldn't have to run an XL to bring enough heat-sinks to cool such a modest load-out. The whole point of ballistics is that they run cool, but I can get better DPS and heat efficiency out of three Medium lasers than I can out of a single AC/2.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 September 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Try it with An AC/10 and two AC/2. You can fit that easily on a STD260 with more armor and the same ammo for only a modest decrease in total DPS. I use it, and it's awesome.

AC/2 on the BJ-1 and BJ-1DC are significantly colder and faster than vanilla AC/2, but they still run slightly too hot to be paired with anything. RoF is fine on those two variants (but I wouldn't complain about a further nudge), but heat should be closer to 0.5 rather than the 0.75 it is now. You shouldn't have to run an XL to bring enough heat-sinks to cool such a modest load-out. The whole point of ballistics is that they run cool, but I can get better DPS and heat efficiency out of three Medium lasers than I can out of a single AC/2.

i still dont see how the AC2 has a Heat Problem, ya its not Heat less, but no weapon really is in MWO,
a Light with 10DHS(250engine) can Fire 2AC2s toasting 2tons of ammo in 55seconds Without Overheating,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 September 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

i still dont see how the AC2 has a Heat Problem, ya its not Heat less, but no weapon really is in MWO,
a Light with 10DHS(250engine) can Fire 2AC2s toasting 2tons of ammo in 55seconds Without Overheating,

But two AC2s alone are not an effective load-out, are they?

Hell, not even two AC/10s alone are an effective load-out, but they become a monster wrecking ball when paired with between 2 and 6 tons in Medium Lasers.

So, because the AC/2 needs to be paired with lasers to be effective and because lasers are hot, then the AC/2 cannot be hot in order to be effective when paired with lasers.

The BJ-1DC 2x AC/2, a STD 200 with 2x ML and 4x SL or 4xML is only barely workable as far as heat efficiency goes. It's still crap looking at damage output over heat output and damage output over expected armor loss per second of output.

[Deathlike]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 September 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

i still dont see how the AC2 has a Heat Problem, ya its not Heat less, but no weapon really is in MWO,
a Light with 10DHS(250engine) can Fire 2AC2s toasting 2tons of ammo in 55seconds Without Overheating,

It doesn't sound like you've ever seen the AC2 dakka days where heat was a critical factor (before Ghost Heat was applied to them). It is a real thing.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 September 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

But two AC2s alone are not an effective load-out, are they?

Hell, not even two AC/10s alone are an effective load-out, but they become a monster wrecking ball when paired with between 2 and 6 tons in Medium Lasers.

So, because the AC/2 needs to be paired with lasers to be effective and because lasers are hot, then the AC/2 cannot be hot in order to be effective when paired with lasers.

The BJ-1DC 2x AC/2, a STD 200 with 2x ML and 4x SL or 4xML is only barely workable as far as heat efficiency goes. It's still crap looking at damage output over heat output and damage output over expected armor loss per second of output.

but shouldnt a weapon be able to stand on their own?
AC20s do, AC10s do, AC5s do, LLs do, ML do, even SL do,
if you take AC2s Heat away yes it can be used more with lasers,
but for the weight of an AC2 you can add +1ML & 4-5DHS,

i dont know Guys i still think less CD will make them more effective at delivering Damage,
i know for me less CD will make me take them more, less heat not so much,

[Y E O N N E]

AC/2 can be somewhat effective alone, but they have to be boated. For 12 tons, I can get an AC/10 with more damage per ton of ammo, more potent front-loading and only a moderate reduction in DPS. For 18 tons, I can get 2x UAC/5, which each do more DPS than two AC/2 while having superior front-loading. For 24 tons, I can go back to the AC/10 and bring two with some lasers for some ferocious damage.

Increasing the DPS on the AC/2 can make it super effective if the rate of fire now means it can put 4 or 6 damage into one spot easily and briefly, but then it becomes overpowered when brought in mass quantities and the AC/5 is useless. So we have to use a combination of heat decrease and DPS increase to keep it in check while also making it worth considering as a complementary munition.

I don't bring AC/2 as primary munitions, I bring them to keep constant damage on the target while engaging with more punchy guns like SRMs or lasers. Unless we want to go with WM Quicksilver's idea of increasing damage per shot (which I don't, and we've discussed this before), suppression is the only thing the AC/2 could potentially be great at. So...we should make it so.

[Apnu]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 September 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Try it with An AC/10 and two AC/2. You can fit that easily on a STD260 with more armor and the same ammo for only a modest decrease in total DPS. I use it, and it's awesome.

AC/2 on the BJ-1 and BJ-1DC are significantly colder and faster than vanilla AC/2, but they still run slightly too hot to be paired with anything. RoF is fine on those two variants (but I wouldn't complain about a further nudge), but heat should be closer to 0.5 rather than the 0.75 it is now. You shouldn't have to run an XL to bring enough heat-sinks to cool such a modest load-out. The whole point of ballistics is that they run cool, but I can get better DPS and heat efficiency out of three Medium lasers than I can out of a single AC/2.

I agree that there are different and effective builds for the JM6-S, I liked this one because it preserved the stock weapons. Recently, with it, I threw out the AC2s and AC5s and put on LB10s and four medium lasers for some brawly fun.

[Lugh]

The AC2 is what MWO's jihady warriors would be mounting on trucks whilst they decry the Mechs of the man.

[Y E O N N E]

Apnu, on 03 September 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

I agree that there are different and effective builds for the JM6-S, I liked this one because it preserved the stock weapons. Recently, with it, I threw out the AC2s and AC5s and put on LB10s and four medium lasers for some brawly fun.

Always a classic, I do that one too!

[Andi Nagasia]

reworked the Topic to show
a CD of -14% down from 28%,
and a reduced heat of -30%,