275 replies to this topic

[Water Bear]

Mystere, on 12 June 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Except that MWO is not even a blip for reasons far removed from hacking. Even if MWO were 100% hacking-free, it will still not even be a blip. Why that is so should be a bigger concern, not this.

It's not a blip because it's customer base is tiny. Video games tend to have popularity roughly proportional to their player base. Starcraft is small compared to LOL or DOTA, and AFAIK most pundits chalk that up to the fact that LOL and DOTA are massively more popular (and much easier to play with lots of friends). If a Starcraft tournament stream gets 7k viewers, expect a major LOL or DOTA tourney to get tens of thousands of views.

This game's tiny tourney scene isn't necessarily a thing "wrong" with MWO. MWO is just a tiny game with a tiny fan base, and hence a tiny amount of money coming in from a tiny amount of viewers.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Honestly, prior to the 64, for the two and a half alnost 3 years I've played this game I think I've been openly accused of hacking about three or four times. Since the Majestic-64, I've been accused of hacking over 4 dozen times, multiple times in a single match even.

1692 called, it wants its wild accusations and mob rule back.

[Dimento Graven]

DV McKenna, on 12 June 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

See this is a prime example paranoia. Intimating that higher elo brackets must be full of cheats.

And yet, looking at the names of the recently banned we seem some of them featured prominently in competitive events and various contests and challenges.

But yes, keep going with the maximum interpretation you can make of my words. Go right ahead, keep attempting to down play it, maybe it will just all go away...

[Kristov Kerensky]

McKenna, less then a single percent of the people using the hack in MWO were caught, and it wasn't 64 PEOPLE, it was 64 accounts, more than a few of them were the same player with alt accounts, PGI bans all accounts tied to the player. Which is part of why letting them come back is so bothersome to some of us. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? I mean, they banned ALL the accounts the player had created, NOT just the one the player used the hack on, but they let them create NEW accounts?

There's more people using the hack, a lot more, they just kept theirs updated and didn't get detected. And lest you forget, the FIRST person busted for using the hack was a top comp player who was busted by PLAYERS, not PGI. PGI investigated and discovered they were indeed using the hack, and hadn't udpated it so it was detected. A top comp player McKenna, not some random nub in PUGlandia. They weren't one of the BEST, but they were none the less a top comp player in a well known unit. So you think people might suspect the top comp players for some reason now? I mean, it's not like one of them got caught using the hack..oh..wait..that is EXACTLY what happened!

We also know that some of the 64 banned accounts topped the leader boards in the events run by PGI, so what were you saying again?

Hacks are in use, have been since this game was first opened to anyone outside PGI. PGI FINALLY is getting proactive about them, sadly they are dropping the ball on how they deal with them once caught.

You keep telling yourself that it's only a few people using them McKenna, that they were all caught and it's all good now. At least you aren't accusing everyone and anyone of using hacks, so there's that at least.

PGI needs to make bans truly permanent, then people will lose the paranoia because the cost is too high for the risk in the general view, and that's what matters.

[Zeusus]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Lots of good stuff

Yeah its full paranoia now. Saw someone accused of hacking because they had a gfx glitch later confirmed by PGI to be a bug. 'Well I didn't have the glitch so clearly you are modding files!'

Although I feel the paranoia would be here even if PGI perma banned them. People are paranoid by nature.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Dimento Graven, on 12 June 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

And yet, looking at the names of the recently banned we seem some of them featured prominently in competitive events and various contests and challenges.

But yes, keep going with the maximum interpretation you can make of my words. Go right ahead, keep attempting to down play it, maybe it will just all go away...

Exactly, Or like right now in solo all you see is teams instead of solos. Had four of the same unit tags on my team admit they synched on a sponsored channel . No its not cheating but underhanded all the same. Why do it unless its to take advantage?
You can drop with you pals in group all you want so there are no excuses for it.
All this does is destroy the game from the inside out. The fact it was sponsored is even more disgusting. If the factions still sponsor farming its not much of a throw to think they turn a blind eye to cheating.
They created the atmosphere let them swim in it.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"The lack of 'extreme' numbers just shows that 64 people were stupid/lazy and not maintaining their hack ap's patches. There's an undetermined number who have patched, or have since purchased, and are currently using the known hack applications."

Yup. What's amazing in this discussion is that, after 6 months of reading forum posts bashing PGI for being incompetent in this or that, people expect me to believe PGI just happens to be experts at rooting out hackers: "They busted 64, all is well, nothing to see here, move along please."

[Kristov Kerensky]

Zeusus, on 12 June 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Yeah its full paranoia now. Saw someone accused of hacking because they had a gfx glitch later confirmed by PGI to be a bug. 'Well I didn't have the glitch so clearly you are modding files!'

Although I feel the paranoia would be here even if PGI perma banned them. People are paranoid by nature.

They are, but when they 'know' the consequences for hacking are a permban that sticks, they assume that everyone else will be like them and not hack, risk is not worth the reward, and the general paranoia levels drop.

Team I played BF:DC and BF2 with, we had our own servers for both games, and people came to our servers because were were well known for our rabidly psychotic hatred of hack users and our public name and shame of any we caught on our website AND every website for the game we could find(we were constantly making alt accounts on forums that didn't permit name/shame, didn't stop us from posting on them!). So they'd come to our server with the expectation that hacking wasn't going on, and due to that, it was REAL rare to see any accusations on our server. We banned 20 a week on average, had 40 more a week who we couldn't PROVE were hacking so we didn't ban them, but we watched them. And yet, people didn't cry hack because our rep was that we ran a hack free server.

Perception....it's an amazing thing.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"when they 'know' the consequences for hacking are a permban that sticks, they assume that everyone else will be like them and not hack, risk is not worth the reward, and the general paranoia levels drop."

Exactly.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 12 June 2015 - 12:19 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

PGI needs to make bans truly permanent, then people will lose the paranoia because the cost is too high for the risk in the general view, and that's what matters.

I doubt that a permanent ban is more efective in keeping something at the lowest.

First, you should really keep an eye on the various competitions and tops (not really many do that) to understand who were those names. I don't follow those events and leaderboards, for me those names ment nothing. No example is set. Players disappeared from the game and it's the end of the store. Look at the 66AH situations and discussions, if not that I've never got into the 'who the hell they were'. Currently this creates unhealthy excitement but when this fades only a reminder for larger player base will remain. And as somwhere in the beginning of this thread was mentioned, people remember and recognize.

Second, permanent ban sets a player in 'all or nothing' mode at the moment he dicides to do that. And after ban that cheater will say 'the hell with it'. If the game is available after... Many will reconsider. Exactly why human nature tends to be more courageuos in 'all or nothing' situation is another matter for discussion, but if alternative is given then people tend to make generally safer decisions. And think on the example to others to look at somebody having to rebuild mech stable and such (plus lost Heroes and so on). Adds a little something.

So the permanent ban isn't the best solution. What will be when those players will get back to the top - well then there will be another set of problems.

PS: However the idea that permaban is stil in stock for those who was caught a second time has some appeal to me.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Dimento Graven, on 12 June 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

And yet, looking at the names of the recently banned we seem some of them featured prominently in competitive events and various contests and challenges.

But yes, keep going with the maximum interpretation you can make of my words. Go right ahead, keep attempting to down play it, maybe it will just all go away...

If people are using hacks you'd expect them to place near the top; that doesn't make them competitive players; and PGIs events are usually about how much you can play rather than actually being good at the team aspect of the team game

People hack this is a fact; the numbers are small.

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

McKenna, less then a single percent of the people using the hack in MWO were caught, and it wasn't 64 PEOPLE, it was 64 accounts, more than a few of them were the same player with alt accounts, PGI bans all accounts tied to the player. Which is part of why letting them come back is so bothersome to some of us. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? I mean, they banned ALL the accounts the player had created, NOT just the one the player used the hack on, but they let them create NEW accounts?

There's more people using the hack, a lot more, they just kept theirs updated and didn't get detected. And lest you forget, the FIRST person busted for using the hack was a top comp player who was busted by PLAYERS, not PGI. PGI investigated and discovered they were indeed using the hack, and hadn't udpated it so it was detected. A top comp player McKenna, not some random nub in PUGlandia. They weren't one of the BEST, but they were none the less a top comp player in a well known unit. So you think people might suspect the top comp players for some reason now? I mean, it's not like one of them got caught using the hack..oh..wait..that is EXACTLY what happened!

We also know that some of the 64 banned accounts topped the leader boards in the events run by PGI, so what were you saying again?

Hacks are in use, have been since this game was first opened to anyone outside PGI. PGI FINALLY is getting proactive about them, sadly they are dropping the ball on how they deal with them once caught.

You keep telling yourself that it's only a few people using them McKenna, that they were all caught and it's all good now. At least you aren't accusing everyone and anyone of using hacks, so there's that at least.

PGI needs to make bans truly permanent, then people will lose the paranoia because the cost is too high for the risk in the general view, and that's what matters.

Please direct me to your source that states difinitively that less than 1% of people using the hack were caught. And also your source for there being alot more using it.

This is perhaps the important information I'm missing in my own assessment.
Because I presume with such a sweeping statement it's not just paranoia.
I'm sure there are more people for PGI to catch; but it would be great for you to cite your numbers for me.

[Kristov Kerensky]

pyrocomp, on 12 June 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

I doubt that a permanent ban is more efective in keeping something at the lowest.

First, you should really keep an eye on the various competitions and tops (not really many do that) to understand who were those names. I don't follow those events and leaderboards, for me those names ment nothing. No example is set. Players disappeared from the game and it's the end of the store. Look at the 66AH situations and discussions, if not that I've never got into the 'who the hell they were'. Currently this creates unhealthy excitement but when this fades only a reminder for larger player base will remain. And as somwhere in the beginning of this thread was mentioned, people remember and recognize.

Second, permanent ban sets a player in 'all or nothing' mode at the moment he dicides to do that. And after ban that cheater will say 'the hell with it'. If the game is available after... Many will reconsider. Exactly why human nature tends to be more courageuos in 'all or nothing' situation is another matter for discussion, but if alternative is given then people tend to make generally safer decisions. And think on the example to others to look at somebody having to rebuild mech stable and such (plus lost Heroes and so on). Adds a little something.

So the permanent ban isn't the best solution. What will be when those players will get back to the top - well then there will be another set of problems.

PS: However the idea that permaban is stil in stock for those who was caught a second time has some appeal to me.

Permbans are the only effective deterrent to hacking I've ever seen. Risk vs reward, pure and simple. F2P games makes it more likely that people will take the risk, it's FREE after all, but when they realize that the permban means they can NOT get back into the game again, well, more people start to think that the risk is too high, even for a free game. The people who'll run the risk at that point are 1 of two types generally :

1) griefers, they don't care if they get banned, they are only there to cause grief, actually one of the larger populations that buy the hacks

2) tryhards, people who want to be top comp players but lack the ability and skills.

And those are the 2 types of people you really don't want in your playerbase anyway, so get rid of em.

McKenna, I asked how many copies they sold, you can do the same, they do tend to be proud of their business and how many copies of their hacks they sell.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 June 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Permbans are the only effective deterrent to hacking I've ever seen. Risk vs reward, pure and simple. F2P games makes it more likely that people will take the risk, it's FREE after all, but when they realize that the permban means they can NOT get back into the game again, well, more people start to think that the risk is too high, even for a free game. The people who'll run the risk at that point are 1 of two types generally :

1) griefers, they don't care if they get banned, they are only there to cause grief, actually one of the larger populations that buy the hacks

2) tryhards, people who want to be top comp players but lack the ability and skills.

And those are the 2 types of people you really don't want in your playerbase anyway, so get rid of em.

McKenna, I asked how many copies they sold, you can do the same, they do tend to be proud of their business and how many copies of their hacks they sell.

So what your saying is you don't have anything definitive. I could tell you I've sold 1000 custom PC'S this year.

Like I say I'm sure there are still ones out there. But i don't think it's the numbers you guys have in your brains. I can count on 2 hands the amount of times I've seen somthing "odd" and that's since CB and most of those are just bugs.

Edited by DV McKenna, 12 June 2015 - 12:36 PM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Please direct me to your source that states difinitively that less than 1% of people using the hack were caught. And also your source for there being alot more using it."

Check the reddit thread "PGI player ban wave in progress". A few of the hackers come clean and explain.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 12 June 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[Mystere]

Mudhutwarrior, on 12 June 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

Exactly, Or like right now in solo all you see is teams instead of solos. Had four of the same unit tags on my team admit they synched on a sponsored channel ...

Mud is definitely back ...

[MechWarrior3671771]

"Mud is definitely back"

How is that going to work with comp teams? I would think most leagues would have a strict policy about having known hackers on your team, and might even ban the entire team if they discovered said team tried to sneak one past them?

[Mudhutwarrior]

Mystere, on 12 June 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

Mud is definitely back ...

They were from your faction too. Maybe 66ah is back too? Oh, yeah they are.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Fenrisulvyn, on 12 June 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

"Please direct me to your source that states difinitively that less than 1% of people using the hack were caught. And also your source for there being alot more using it."

Check the reddit thread "PGI player ban wave in progress". A few of the hackers come clean and explain.

I'll be honest there's still nothing concrete there.
What I did get from it; is that PGI or more pointedly Garth (long may his soul rest in peace) and Russ completely ignored the the texture file modifications myself and Dustmuffins sent them years ago; as they were and probably still are in use since it appears more people know about them

[Satan n stuff]

Wildstreak, on 09 June 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

I would not be surprised if they are coming back. I had matches where I was getting shot with LRMs when
- I was behind cover from all enemies.
- I was not NARCed.
- they had no hidden spotters, I checked.

That doesn't work though, the server won't recognize the lock if you don't actually have a valid spotter or line of sight.

[Kristov Kerensky]

DV McKenna, on 12 June 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

So what your saying is you don't have anything definitive. I could tell you I've sold 1000 custom PC'S this year.

Like I say I'm sure there are still ones out there. But i don't think it's the numbers you guys have in your brains. I can count on 2 hands the amount of times I've seen somthing "odd" and that's since CB and most of those are just bugs.

Funny, I've seen people I suspect of using hacks a hell of a lot more than that, but it was part of my job duties for years, so I guess I just pay a lot more attention than most do. I'm also quick to dismiss the average player who screams hack, they have no idea what to look for.

The particular hack being used in MWO is very sophisticated, the guy did some great work, I'll give him that, so it's very difficult to detect even if you know what to look for. The PLAYER gives it away usually, because, typical of most hack users, they aren't smart and are lazy. I know they are being used often enough that I see them in more drops than people would imagine, ratio is 33% currently, up from what it was before the bans were handed out actually, and I don't see the same people repeatedly in my drops, so it's not the same players over and over.

And you are right McKenna, the guy could have lied to me, but since I don't feel like getting his customer list, I'll just take his word on how many he's sold of the MWO hack alone, I didn't ask about the Master pack, since that number is going to be huge due to it covering most of the top games on the market today.

Fenris, leagues typically have a zero tolerance policy on hacks, you get busted using one, you are out of the league and you don't get to come back. If that person was on a team, that team won't get punished usually, since it's very easy to hide the usage of a hack from your teammates, a lot easier than people realize. I had one of my own do that to me in MW2, used a hack on his teammates in practice, a very subtle one that escaped our notice, I just happened to look at his mek file, I was copying his build because it was very nice and discovered the hack, turned his ass in to the league myself. SOB tried to turn ME in for hacking after that, idiot sent the league a copy of what he said was MY mek file, only he'd forgotten to rename the actual name he'd given it, which was his own name...hack users, not very smart usually, and usually lazy.