98 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 June 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

No. If we always know when a weapon will jam we would prevent it before it happens. We should NEVER know that.

For one, i support this opinion. It does not make sense for me that you would know exactly when a weapon is going to jam and that a bar can measure it.. Neg, please.

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CyclonerM, on 10 June 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

For one, i support this opinion. It does not make sense for me that you would know exactly when a weapon is going to jam and that a bar can measure it.. Neg, please.

But yet it's ok to know exactly when you're going to overheat? Double standard...

[EvilCow]

The bar could also indicate the increasing probability of a jam before the shutdown caused by barrels heat. This would make jams after one shot very unlikely.

The more you fire, the more the probability of a jam increases. After releasing the trigger the bar returns to zero slowly (to prevent macros that fire one shot and then release).

[CDLord HHGD]

00ohDstruct, on 10 June 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

But yet it's ok to know exactly when you're going to overheat? Double standard...

Apples and oranges dude... Heat is a measurable/quantifiable entity. Mechanical failure is not.

[Kristov Kerensky]

cdlord, on 10 June 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

That's technically the purpose of the UACs...... They replace standard ACs... Just because it can double tap, you don't have to...

Shush you, with your logic and good sense, we don't need none of that sillyness here!

00ohDstruct, on 10 June 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

But yet it's ok to know exactly when you're going to overheat? Double standard...

We know how much heat our Mechs can take, it isn't guesswork or random chance involved, it's a set scale.

Jamming is a RANDOM thing, it may or may NOT happen on any given trigger pull, hence the random bit.

Lugh, once upon a time uAC5s didn't jam, at all. They WERE OP, everyone and anyone who could mount them did, they were THAT OP. For a while, you could totally bypass the jam with well timed macros, and everyone and anyone that could mount them did and ran the macros, because without the jamming, they are straight up OP, ammo isn't THAT limiting a factor when you can avoid the jam totally. And we do NOT balance how a weapon works against a single game mode like CW, because only a small percentage of the game takes place in CW, the majority of the players avoid CW, remember?

[GrimRiver]

Sounds kinda like how some guns work in real life, when you fire too much too fast the bolt can't cycle fast enough and the round gets jammed in chamber. Jam chance should jump by 20%/30% everytime a shot is fired before the 0.75 cooldown can cycle all the way and rounds should also lose accuaracy by 20%/30% due to heat warping the barrel, Just to make it balanced so it isn't op in anyway.

[Almond Brown]

00ohDstruct, on 10 June 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

But yet it's ok to know exactly when you're going to overheat? Double standard...

Apples and Oranges dude. Your Heat bar is based on many things to generate that Heat, so a gauge allows a Pilot to see where they can reduce when needed. Not that a Bar would stop most jams, like a Heat Bar does not prevent all Overheats, it would allow a player to fire the weapon for an extended period knowing there will be no repercussions.

If a Bar was ever to be added, a FULL Bar auto Jams that UAC gun for 30-40s. How do the cUAC's fit into all this btw. An cUAC20 with no Jam chance for up to 5-6 double taps would be complete BS. Do they get a "special" Jam bar?

Edited by Almond Brown, 10 June 2015 - 09:14 AM.

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cdlord, on 10 June 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Apples and oranges dude... Heat is a measurable/quantifiable entity. Mechanical failure is not.

So AC's, machine guns, and missiles should ALL have a jam chance when reloading? That'd switch things up a bit...

Actually, you avoid shutdown depending on your pilot skill roll, and it's supposed to go through multiple checks becoming more difficult as you climb to automatic shutdown. So like you said, "Mech-anical Failure." Mechs are mechanical, bro. lol. Mechs weren't meant to overheat, and would shut down if the pilot couldn't do something about it. Sure one can claim "TT doesn't equal MW:O" but that's also where the UAC jam chance comes from too... *shrug* cherry picking doesn't equate to balance.

[Kristov Kerensky]

00ohDstruct, on 10 June 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

So AC's, machine guns, and missiles should ALL have a jam chance when reloading? That'd switch things up a bit...

Actually, you avoid shutdown depending on your pilot skill roll, and it's supposed to go through multiple checks becoming more difficult as you climb to automatic shutdown. So like you said, "Mech-anical Failure." Mechs are mechanical, bro. lol. Mechs weren't meant to overheat, and would shut down if the pilot couldn't do something about it. Sure one can claim "TT doesn't equal MW:O" but that's also where the UAC jam chance comes from too... *shrug* cherry picking doesn't equate to balance.

And many of us have advocated for the heat scale system from TT being used, as it really adds a nice depth to the game and makes heat mean more than hitting O and suiciding. Sadly, the same type of players who hate that idea also want to remove jamming as a random thing from the game, because they think anything random should never been in a video game, especially a PvP online game. The fact that just about every single online PvP game out there does the random thing constantly never seems to occur to them, MWO is pretty unique in that it's pretty damn rare to actually have the random thing happen.

[Almond Brown]

00ohDstruct, on 10 June 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

So AC's, machine guns, and missiles should ALL have a jam chance when reloading? That'd switch things up a bit...

Actually, you avoid shutdown depending on your pilot skill roll, and it's supposed to go through multiple checks becoming more difficult as you climb to automatic shutdown. So like you said, "Mech-anical Failure." Mechs are mechanical, bro. lol. Mechs weren't meant to overheat, and would shut down if the pilot couldn't do something about it. Sure one can claim "TT doesn't equal MW:O" but that's also where the UAC jam chance comes from too... *shrug* cherry picking doesn't equate to balance.

Cherry picking is all that is available ffs. "Everyone" knows a direct port to a RT FPS game play environment ain't gonna happen.

P.S. One would guess that if a Pilot tried to fire those other weapons while they were mid-reload, a Jam could occur. Guess what? The Pilot is not afforded that chance so it is a moot point.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 June 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

And many of us have advocated for the heat scale system from TT being used, as it really adds a nice depth to the game and makes heat mean more than hitting O and suiciding. Sadly, the same type of players who hate that idea also want to remove jamming as a random thing from the game, because they think anything random should never been in a video game, especially a PvP online game. The fact that just about every single online PvP game out there does the random thing constantly never seems to occur to them, MWO is pretty unique in that it's pretty damn rare to actually have the random thing happen.

Well that's the thing. We have BOTH "apples and oranges" concerning that. An exact heat scale that's "abused" like people are complaining what would happen with the UAC's... , pin point damage (even FPS's have a cone of fire or convergence of some sort)... these have huge impacts on the game and how it plays.

The only random relic that's left up to a dice roll (from what a pilot has control over) from TT is that UAC jam chance.

Let me put it another way... I'd prefer more chance myself. But by the logic of PGI and the majority that plays the game...

They're ok with Pinpoint Damage
They're ok with a measurable heat scale that only shuts down past 100%
But getting rid random jam chance of a UAC and putting a visible bar in would wreck the game and make it ripe for abuse... when the above two issues mentioned mimic the gravity of this issue?

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. Got it.

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 10 June 2015 - 10:20 AM.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Almond Brown, on 10 June 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

Cherry picking is all that is available ffs.

Then by that logic, PGI cherry picked everything to do with this game that's not exactly TT or lore and adapted it so that it would be more of a shooter, than a simulation. Gauss charge, PPC/Gauss fire mechanic, Ghost heat, Double Armor, ECM functionality, Pinpoint damage, and so on. The only odd man out in gameplay is that UAC jam chance mechanic from the old TT.

Make it measurable like everything else in the game, and suddenly "Lazir Vomet" has competition for weapon loadouts.

[Andi Nagasia]

Almond Brown, on 10 June 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

If a Bar was ever to be added, a FULL Bar auto Jams that UAC gun for 30-40s. How do the cUAC's fit into all this btw. An cUAC20 with no Jam chance for up to 5-6 double taps would be complete BS. Do they get a "special" Jam bar?

the system i Proposed in the OP was,

Andi Nagasia, on 09 June 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

if so how should it how would/Should it work in MWO?
bar has 20Segments,
each Ultra weapon when fast fired fills the Bar,
(UAC2= 1)(UAC5= 2)(UAC10= 4)(UAC20= 9),
when the Bar gets over filled your UACs Jam,
(Numbers can be changed for Balance),

the Bar starts to Degrade after 5 Seconds of Cooling(no Fire),
and will loses 2 Segments a Second until Empty or until return Fire,
(Cooling and Segments lost can be changed for balance),

in this Case an AC20 could only Double Tap Twice,
if they fire again their Bar will over Fill and then their UACs will Jam,
(the Number of Segments, & how many the Weapons Gen can be Changed for Balance),

assuming you have 2UAC20s(only WHK & DWF), yes thats 80 Damage,
But remember that each fired 5 shots, which spread all over, past short range,
and when you consider that the both the WHK & DWF can do over that with Lasers,
(in this Case the LPLx4(52damage)with unlimited Ammo, the UAC20 isnt too much better),
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 11 June 2015 - 06:01 AM.

[Lugh]

Kristov Kerensky, on 10 June 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

Shush you, with your logic and good sense, we don't need none of that sillyness here!



We know how much heat our Mechs can take, it isn't guesswork or random chance involved, it's a set scale.

Jamming is a RANDOM thing, it may or may NOT happen on any given trigger pull, hence the random bit.

Lugh, once upon a time uAC5s didn't jam, at all. They WERE OP, everyone and anyone who could mount them did, they were THAT OP. For a while, you could totally bypass the jam with well timed macros, and everyone and anyone that could mount them did and ran the macros, because without the jamming, they are straight up OP, ammo isn't THAT limiting a factor when you can avoid the jam totally. And we do NOT balance how a weapon works against a single game mode like CW, because only a small percentage of the game takes place in CW, the majority of the players avoid CW, remember?

No they were not OP, people were merely butt hurt that they got owned quickly by a weapon 'they can do nothing about'. Despite the fact that the game is FULL of weapons that OWN you and you can do nothing about them, PPCs, Gauss, SRMs
ACs all deliver PIN POINT DAMAGE and there is no whining on those items.

UACs are supposed to be the best a man can get for pin point damage. They aren't because of an arbitrary TOO HIGH jam chance on the double tap. Which makes them only as good as regular ACs when using good trigger discipline.

I am an AC junky. I can state flat out that the tonnage for ammo and guns easily makes up for the "OP"ness of the systems.

If it did not, you wouldn't see so much laser vomit. Let the ACs shine. With a 'realistic' jam chance. FIRE the engineers that gave us weapons that have a 25% chance to jam under duress.

Add to that the laser vomit and PPC builds get this cool reset thing called COOL SHOT which lets them abuse their unlimited ammo longer. And AC players and missile users STILL do not get an AMMO Reload consumable to match.

Edited by Lugh, 11 June 2015 - 06:11 AM.

[Squarebasher]

I agree that UAC jam chance should be all about heat, I don't think we need an extra bar to tell us though, the overheat bar on the mech can tell you.

Just as an example, if your mechs heat is below 50% then a jam cannot occur, if above 50% then the hotter the mech the more chance of jamming.

[Almond Brown]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 June 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

the system i Proposed in the OP was,

in this Case an AC20 could only Double Tap Twice,
if they fire again their Bar will over Fill and then their UACs will Jam,
(the Number of Segments, & how many the Weapons Gen can be Changed for Balance),

assuming you have 2UAC20s(only WHK & DWF), yes thats 80 Damage,
But remember that each fired 5 shots, which spread all over, past short range,
and when you consider that the both the WHK & DWF can do over that with Lasers,
(in this Case the LPLx4(52damage)with unlimited Ammo, the UAC20 isnt too much better),
Edit-

Ok, so the BARS would not be the same but based on the weapon loaded on the chassis in question? Again, I thought we needed to make MWO easier for new players to get a handle on... Multiple Bars, that change as they go, is not easier to digest...

P.S. And to allow 80 points, then a short wait to go again (unless you propose a =/>20s CD to empty the Bar after) is still beyond crazy, given that Mech can still have another 30-40 point in Lasers ready to go as well...

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 June 2015 - 08:43 AM.

[Xanquil]

Sorry no, you should never know exactly when a weapon will jam, it is bad enough we have weapons that always hit the same spot when fired together.

Weapon jams are not jut about heat, but also about the ammo, the ammo feed system, and maintenance. There are just way to many variables to have something never jam until "X" amount of shots and than always jam. It makes no sense.

That and it makes getting around the flaws of the weapon too easy to do.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Lugh, on 11 June 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

No they were not OP, people were merely butt hurt that they got owned quickly by a weapon 'they can do nothing about'. Despite the fact that the game is FULL of weapons that OWN you and you can do nothing about them, PPCs, Gauss, SRMs
ACs all deliver PIN POINT DAMAGE and there is no whining on those items.

UACs are supposed to be the best a man can get for pin point damage. They aren't because of an arbitrary TOO HIGH jam chance on the double tap. Which makes them only as good as regular ACs when using good trigger discipline.

I am an AC junky. I can state flat out that the tonnage for ammo and guns easily makes up for the "OP"ness of the systems.

If it did not, you wouldn't see so much laser vomit. Let the ACs shine. With a 'realistic' jam chance. FIRE the engineers that gave us weapons that have a 25% chance to jam under duress.

Add to that the laser vomit and PPC builds get this cool reset thing called COOL SHOT which lets them abuse their unlimited ammo longer. And AC players and missile users STILL do not get an AMMO Reload consumable to match.

You can flat out state that the Adder is an OP super Mech, that doesn't make it so, anymore than telling me that unjamming uACs aren't OP makes it real.

We HAD that, they did NOT jam, ever, and they were OP as hell. Even after they first added the jamming, it could easily be bypassed by using a macro that totally circumvented the jamming mechanic, and they were OP as hell still.

You can't argue that they weren't, they WERE, this wasn't just the opinion of a few players, this was a playerbase wide opinion AND PGI agreed, data showed the non-jamming uAC5 was OP, so they changed how the jamming mechanic works and you can't bypass it anymore.

There's a reason the DakkaWhale uses uAC5s and not AC5s, there's a reason so many of us use uAC5s on our ballistic Mechs instead of AC5s. They are more powerful, pure and simple. Go on, keep trying to tell us how removing the jamming function's random action will not make them OP, considering we've BEEN down that road already and we know exactly what's waiting at the end of it.

You are probably the type of guy who dates his ex's aren't you?

[Andi Nagasia]

ive reworked the Jam Chance,
so their is always a chance of Jam when the bar is half filled,

[Zordicron]

Bonus: People hate random in FPS.
Downside: Makes them stupid easy to use as most people use them, step out, rap off a bunch of rounds, step back to cool off or unjam.

IMO, it would take all the downsides of using UAC over normal AC out of the game. The bar style mechanic would be perfectly fine if the game was about mobile lances duking it out in intermittent cover like we saw in previous MW titles. In a 12 vs 12 game that maps funnel players into a camping arena, a bar just allows people to sidestep the drawbacks of the double rate of fire based on current "real" play.

As to OP's specifics:
You can't penalize bigger guns with more frequent jam rates, thats idiotic the bigger guns have heat/tonnage/ammo/cooldown times/range/slug velocity to balance them already. If the idea is to prevent boating: WHY? PGI hasn't had an issue with it, or we would have ghost heat on UAC5 boats, and we DO have ghost heat on AC10. If you want to try to supercede that, OK, I guess, but that adds another layer of complexity to your idea in regards to balancing.

Further, Each weapon gets it'sown bar correct? Otherwise, what, putting 4 on a king crab means you can fire them twice before the jam bar fills vs putting one on a Shawk means you can just go to town? That penalizes a legit loadout for the Crab and allows the Shawk to 100% sidestep the UAC vs AC downsides. Maybe I was looking at this wrong, but it looked like you were just going to add all the guns together for one bar. What if i put a UAC10 and UAC5 and UAC2 on? Should my UAC10 jam because I was spamming the UAC2?

Overall, I understand the desire for removal of randomness. I also think, if we put a mechanic like this in, it would be much harder to balance the UAC vs an AC based on just the jam bar. IMO, it would start off a bit OP, and PGI would attempt some tweaks to jam, which would end up making them "unusable" for some, creating some anger, and eventually we would end up with low jam chance and higher cooldowns or heat. I personally don;t want to go down that road, having seen UAC5's in and out of favor, to put it lightly, over the last couple years based mostly on jam rates(and at one time it didn't share a cooldown with AC5)

The only thing I would like to see is the guns coded to not be able to jam on the first trigger pull. maybe even the first double tap. Stepping out, and NOT EVEN FIREING THE GUN because it jammed before a slug was fired, now thats obnoxious ****. beyond that though, the unpredictability of UAC is the only thing that keeps regular AC5's on the IS side from being obsolete, and really, even with the jam chance, clan side the regular AC's dont compete at all based on the common player feedback here.