36 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Jaegon, on 17 June 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

I'm not a fan of CW... and it definitely seems like a waste every time I see a big announce of a new CW map. By far, the best use of resources is to have these maps available in PUG too.

From a logic standpoint, I get that it makes sense to try and draw players into this new mode that has all this development time caught up in it... but if the vast majority of your players are playing in the other mode, it just makes sense to support the mode that they are clearly telling you they want.

If nothing else, add another game type like Capture the flag or something that is in the PUG playlist... a mode like that would make lights far more valuable to a team, and encourage a variety of play styles without the huge commitment it takes to play some CW right now.


When it really comes down to it, as long as the game is sticking to Mechwarrior history, there's only so many things you can do to continue supporting and expanding the game:

You can add mechs... but there are so many people are really starting to get the "meh" factors going, they're just the same set of components being shuffled around.

You can add game modes... ideally ones that fit within the existing patterns of most players (PUG)

You can add new weapons... but this breaks fiction. Man, a whole new family of weapons would really be nice though... something to breath new life into all the now-older mechs.

And then there's maps... which are being created, but not given to the majority of players... and it doesn't make much sense.

There are quite literally 100 other games that offer nothing but random meaningless TDM. That Mechwarrior is going to offer more is a good thing and all the trolling or disrespecting of the galaxy map and the effort some peeps are putting into it wont change anything.

Phase 3 will likely be as large as phase 1 and 2 combined if 4 v 4 is to be added as a scouting action prior to the invasion mode and also logistics is to be added.

It actually is in beta and there is nothing currently for units to strive for and much is still missing. Its not going to remain like that...

[Lugh]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 10 June 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

Because they're the worst maps in the game? Walk to the choke point, plink away until one side wins... yay?

I guess if they forced us to use the other part of the map it could be kind of interesting though.

And this is different than all these other maps how?

[DAYLEET]

Titannium, on 10 June 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Why cant we have all those nice maps, in non-CW play ?

Because they are terrible. They belong in a highly scripted solo game, otherwise they are awefuly narrow, restrictive, small and everything i don't want in a fps games

Mystere, on 15 June 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Is CW actually dead, or are players just chicken?

Those who are not scared to lose at minimum 20 minutes without a guarantee of playing and having to wait another 20 minutes minimum without more of a guarantee might value their gaming time differently than me.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 June 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

WHat if its dead cause players are chicken? Is it less dead?

*stroke ridiculously long and thin white beard* If i die out of bound and no one saw me die, am i dead?

Johnny Z, on 17 June 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

Some are actually trying to do what Mechwarrior is doing. Elite Dangerous for example.

What if in Elite Dangerous the faction fight ended with Dropship piloted by people, dropping Mechwarriors on procedurally generated landscape planet, in a planet side kind of ways but only lasted says 6 hours? I gota go take care of this raging bo***.

Edited by DAYLEET, 17 June 2015 - 11:30 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Since I got started on this I just want to say, RED VRS BLUE TDM SUCKS.

If I was one of the developers for one the 100+ red vrs blue tdm games I would be as embarrassed as they are to. Some are actually trying to do what Mechwarrior is doing. Elite Dangerous for example. Destiny wishes they could go that route. Anyway Mechwarrior is breaking new ground in meaningfull character customization(the mechbay) and this Galaxy map mode is shaping up to break new ground as well.

Impressive actually if it all comes together in a good way.

I mean think about it for a second what movie has a giant battle without story and characters and setting and such? Or book for that matter? Yet the gaming industry has seen fit to hand players TDM with nothing else? Imagine how a movie would do offering that or a book? Why games are expected to be so much less is beyond me. And no it isnt a big deal its just painfully obvious yet few mention it.

I have to say also that Mechwarrior factions are awsome. Each one of the many that participate are better than any the competition offers. There is a lack of aliens but maybe the bird people will be added some time.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 June 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[Jaegon]

I get that it's awesome to have context to the game modes, it's an awesome noble goal... it's just not what the numbers show players caring all that much about.

I was Lead Designer at Epic games, there over a decade, and did a load of work on Unreal Tournament and the Gears of War trilogy. I don't say that in a "my ideas are more important" way... I'm saying we had similar dilemmas with UT and Gears as well, and I empathize deeply with these development issues. We had how we wanted the players to play, and then there was the reality of what they actually were playing. It took quite a few years with Gears specifically to stop making gameplay changes that attempted to "correct" how people were playing (not using cover)... then when we changed our tunes are embraced how it was going, the community was far more excited about what we were doing.

In both of those when I was leading the level design teams we realized the best bang for development buck was always going to be game modes that could be played in a unified set of maps. Gears had Horde mode fighting waves of AI, which started out in custom maps, flailing around for months making a complex scheme of map progression... then a gameplay coder one night just dumped the wave progression code into our standard multiplayer maps and it was like a eureka moment... and a sigh of relief that we no longer needed to make 5-10 new maps specifically for that one mode.

Anyway, my point is still that if 90% of your players want quick jump-in action, it makes sense to facilitate that *while* doing the experimental work that pushes the boundaries.

Edited by Jaegon, 18 June 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[DONTOR]

I dont think the maps are huge, i think they would be the perfect size for regular games, the maps are WAY too small as is.

[Bilbo]

Mystere, on 15 June 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Is CW actually dead, or are players just chicken?

I am scared to lose 30 minutes of my life watching myself repeatedly get pushed to the back of line. If they fixed that I'd play CW fairly regularly.

[Bongo TauKat]

Whatever happened to the smaller 4v4 and such drops for CW? If they were enacted then the smaller maps would work great in a CW mode.

[MoonUnitBeta]

The first issue is that PGI has not been treating CW as a direct replacement for solo queue. Some people will oppose this idea, but it's really what should be done.
They first designed it for 12mans, with pugs being an after thought. Giving it the label that it'll be "hardcore" and ruthless.................

What I find hilarious is that PGI makes a big fuss about not wanting to split the player base more than it already is, but they implement this huge ass addition called CW that is actually pretty lack luster. It all seems rather counter productive.

Most people don't play it for two main reasons:
1) there's no point (it's not much different than what we currently had before)
2) solo queue is faster.

Granted there's some units that play it, but even those are diminishing.
Counter attack and invasion game modes don't offer anything new to the monotonous match-and-drop gameplay that we've had for the past 3 years.

All current game modes can be combined and put into one massive map. Where players work together in real time to conquer the majority of the map. Working similar to Planetside 2, there is no time limit on matches. You select a planet you want to help out on, and drop. You can capture bases, drop points, resource collectors, refineries, factories, etc. Perform escorts to speed up productions, but at the risk that the opposing force can take over the convoy and reap the rewards (so this would be a large 12 man operation to defend the convoy).

Spawn tanks and planes, fly them, etc.

PGI has the assets to create several KM maps that can house all of these game modes, and also an increase player cap...

But, it's too much work.
We will forever be stuck to being match-made and dropped into a limited timed game mode that is centralized around only one bland objective.

[Revis Volek]

Mystere, on 15 June 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Is CW actually dead, or are players just chicken?

Sounds more accurate....

And NO!

CW maps are not made for the normal modes....how would Assault work? Where do you put the caps on Boreal? or Sulfur?

How would Skirmish work when one team has a base to hide in while the other does not?

These are all reason why they dont put them in the Normal queue.

Bongo TauKat, on 18 June 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Whatever happened to the smaller 4v4 and such drops for CW? If they were enacted then the smaller maps would work great in a CW mode.

That has been slated for Summer or later since it summer now i would guess on later being the safe bet.

Edited by DarthRevis, 18 June 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[Jman5]

Mystere, on 15 June 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Is CW actually dead, or are players just chicken?

It has nothing to do with being chickens. The skill gap is just too lopsided to be very fun. If I drop in a group with regular players, we win 90% of our match ups in landslides. If I drop as a pug I will lose 90% of my matches in landslides. There are just too many terrible players participating in community warfare. People who can't break 500 damage with 4 mechs. And this is coming from someone who enjoys playing in the solo queue. I rarely talk bad about PUGs. However community warfare has no way of adjusting for skill and it leads to 9/10 matches being hopeless slaughters.

So most good units don't play CW much because it's a boring ****-fest and group queue gives them better games. Most people don't pug because you're saddled with so much dead weight it's nearly impossible to win.

Edited by Jman5, 18 June 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[Jaegon]

Yeah, Darth, there would definitely be some adjustments for those maps to work in PUG modes, but they're very far along. They committed the art resources to making the meshes and textures for the worlds, which is a huge portion of the work. The layouts aren't like total resets, they need maybe 30%-40% revisiting of layout to be viable for all the modes IMO.

Bottom line for CW as to why I don't play it more is the time involvement and commitment to a single match. I can hop in a PUG game and if it's a blowout, at least it's over soon and we all try again... we could do that quite a few times in the amount of time a round of CW takes. Once a CW round goes lopsided, you're committed to sitting there getting pounded for much longer, or you're doing the pounding if you're lucky.

I like the general concept of making matches more contextual to an overall campaign, but it automatically means matchmaking times are dialed up based on people belonging to different factions alone.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Not signing up with any faction. So forget it. Not paying a penalty to bail on one.

You want players in CW drop the faction stupidity.

[Chagatay]

Titannium, on 10 June 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Well, as from what I read, the spike for CW was around 13% of all population (a time ago), guess its now lower then that... (15 mins waiting for a game is breaker)

Why cant we have all those nice maps, in non-CW play ?
I think its wasting resources, to give such nice maps, to <10% of all MWO population...

What do you think ?
Ofc the maps are huge, so maybe some drop changes may be need, but its indeed a shame, they are "hidden" for most of the playerbase....

i like the maps.
i like the dropships.

i dont like current CW.

Well probably a few reasons. CW maps are very easy to make:
Area A, Area B, Some paths and done. Any major work is just the terrain but the balance equation is much easier even if they don't get it right and take lots of shortcuts....(looking at you Emerald Taiga) Especially since they are reusing assets (like buildings/structures from old maps).

New maps for regular queue are alot more work.

[Khobai]

It makes absolutely no sense to split a relatively small player base between three queues (solo regular queue, group regular queue, and CW queue). They need to stop fracturing the player base. And they need to stop letting larger groups pick on solo players and small groups in CW.

They should combine the three current queues into just two queues (one for solo players/small groups and one for med/large groups) and make every single match count as a CW match. That also means incorporating every single gamemode into CW.


Whenever a slot is attacked for the first time after a ceasefire it should be invasion game mode.

If the slot is attacked a second time it should be a random gamemode chosen from: counter attack/conquest/skirmish/assault.

Then it would alternate back to invasion if the slot is attacked a third time and keep alternating each subsequent time its attacked.


Lastly they should incorporate 4v4 skirmish matches into the game. Before you can invade a planet you should first have to "link" the planet. Linking the planet could be done in one of two ways: either by holding an adjacent planet for 24 hours -OR- by winning enough 4v4 matches before then to establish the link.

So either you could defend a planet for 24 hours to open the link to an adjacent planet or you could attack the adjacent planet and win enough 4v4s and open the link during the next ceasefire period (instead of having to wait 24 hours).

Edited by Khobai, 19 June 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[Mavairo]

Move the CW maps over to group and solo que.

They're beautiful, utterly beautiful.

[Gattsus]

one day!