31 replies to this topic

[VorpalAnvil]

TL;DR... I'm a noob, please nerf moar things that I don't like cause reasons.

[Xoco]

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

Agreed; I run five separate triggers for my weapons; none of which are Alpha triggers. If I want to Alpha, I have to press at least two (often three) triggers together. It's better to fire in groups.

That being said, I do know some pilots (several in my Unit, actually) that only own two-button mice and can't afford to upgrade to gaming mice. That limits them to an Alpha trigger and a chainfire trigger on their boats. That's another reason not to limit Alphas.

I have a broken down 2 button mouse too (it sometimes double clicks, and sometimes stop clicking). I use my keyboard binding for non-machinegun/flamer(I know, right?) stuff, mainly. With that said though, considering alpha is just pressing all buttons at once, which is limited by heat, then I don't see a practical reason to disallow it.

[Hotthedd]

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Right, I understand what gibbing means.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Actually, that's not correct. If you watch one of the videos, you will notice that I take a TDR-5SS 7xMPL build against a Grasshopper and fail to insta-gib any of its components. In fact, the fight lasts for a while with both pilots landing very solid blows. As for insta-killing an Assault, the Firestarter in question cannot do that. Assuming no armor, the CT of an Assault will still be more than 36 points of health; the max that your FS example can generate in terms of damage. Add in some rear armor, and the FS will be unable to insta-kill, or even gib, the Assault. As for Heavies, this is also not an accurate statement. I run FS Mechs and can attest that they are not as powerful as you think. The only thing I've ever been able to "gib" has been other Light Mechs.

REAR CT. Big difference. I have done it many times in my FS, and had it done to me in my Atlas. I do not put 36 pts of armor on my butt.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

BT is a board game depending on random dice rolls. As such, there are many things that cannot be translated into an actionable FPS. What we currently have, is a game not unlike MW4, which, in my opinion, did a very good job with the MechWarrior/BattleTech franchise. MWO has its flaws, but PPFLD is not one of them.

I get that. And I have read PGI's explanation that registering too many shots aimed at different points at the same time overloads the server. PPFLD by itself is not a problem, it is the ability to combine several weapons into essentially on big PPFLD weapon that is a problem.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

That does not make much sense for two reasons. You are essentially saying that, by placing one lucky alpha strike, you can defeat an entire enemy team. That is, of course, assuming a head shot on a fully armored Mech or an alpha into a heavily damaged component; it would take more than one alpha to kill a Mech otherwise. The other flaw is that you are assuming that by killing the Drop Caller, you are "severing the head that the body may die." That doesn't work. A good drop caller Spectates, rapidly cycling through his pilots' cockpits to get an exceptional view of the battle. If anything, dying makes the drop caller stronger and increases the tactical efficiency of the team.

That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that from the perspective of the insta-gibEE (who may very well be a newer player), being rendered almost dead by one (perceived or not) lucky shot does not make a "fun" gaming experience.

Everything you say on a macro level is true, I was arguing small ball.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

I am not one-shotted very often. That's only happened a couple of times, generally when I'm running something like a Centurion with thin rear armor. Each time it's happened, I have already sustained substantial damage, so I actually hesitate to call it one-shotting. The only time I've ever truly been one-shotted was when a Dire Wolf walked into my flank when I was piloting a CN9-YLW. That was a hurtful encounter.

Setting focus fire aside, I also can't say that I have beem gibbed much either. I recall one match from the recent "I Need A Hero" Event where I lost my LA in a single salvo from an Assault (I don't recall the Mech), but I had been careless and deserved it.

Maybe it is the difference in our elo, but, for my games, one-shotting is a rare occurence. Most pilots are too mobile to allow it to happen. The gibbing and insta-kill, on my end, tend to only occur when the battle lines finally close and the two teams begin focus-firing for effect. I've yet to see any insta-kill or gibbing happen in 1v1 matches.

Going by my W/L statistics, I am pretty sure I am competing with and against some very good players. I would say it might be a difference in our playstyle, or even perception. I don't get one-shotted in anything but lights, but I have had a side torso blown off in one shot in mediums and heavies. That shouldn't happen to the most powerful war machine in the galaxy.. I have been killed by a 36 pt. alpha in the back of my Atlas while brawling, but that shouldn't be something 35 ton mechs are capable of doing.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

In fact, I even have a vid somewhere of my TDR taking a BoomJager without getting insta-gibbed. I wound up dying, but it still took several AC/20 rounds to finish me, and I wrecked the BoomJager before dying.

In 1 v 1, it should be pretty infrequent, as both pilots are focused on the other. BoomJagers do their one-shot kills best when hitting an enemy that is already engaged.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Longer duels wouldn't be too much of a problem. The main issue is that the longer amounts of time would favor farming of new players by veteran ones, making the new player experience worse.

I don't get what you're trying to say. I don't see the correlation between TTK and farming. If a veteran is going to farm newer pilots, they would do that no matter what the TTK is.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Frankly, I rather like the current build of the game. With some decisive drop calling, we can finish a match in 5-8 minutes and move on to the next one. I remember back when matches were ending on time out; those simply took too long. The current, high-risk, high-reward gameplay is not only exciting, but also realistic, I think.

I have not seen many games end on time lately, either, and that isn't what I am advocating. Increasing average TTK by 10% would stretch your 5 - 8 minute game by 30 and 48 seconds, respectively.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Generally agreeing with you here. However, you can''t touch PPFLD until you introduce role warfare and increase the amount of game content and features. The reason is, again, focus firing. Until there is a reason not to focus fire, that will remain the key feature in the game. Increasing TTK by decreasing weapon damage or effectiveness will simply make the competitive pilots huddle even closer to further maximize their grouped PPFLD, while the more inexperienced pilots, feeling more resilient, will be more inclined to wander about on their own. In short, without putting something in to take the place of PPFLD, trying to reduce it will only widen the disparity of "good" and "bad" matches because pilots without leaders will continue to make bad choices, while pilots with leaders will simply tighten up their gameplay.

So, there would be no real difference in team play.
We are in agreement that the deathball, Nascar zerg should be reduced through game modes and objectives and role warfare. Reducing massed PPFLD from single mechs wouldn't stop the problem, but it wouldn't make it worse.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider TTK to be? I have two definitions for it:
1) Match Time To Kill: How long before you die with the match start as a reference. I find five minutes to be a good number considering that most matches end in less than eight.
2) Personal Time To Kill: How long before you die after entering an engagement with the enemy. I find that "instant" is good for focus fire (It's Lore-based too), while ten seconds is a good minimum for dueling with a Mech of equal weight.

1) Given our 3 modes, 1 mode, I prefer 8 to 10 minute matches, especially when they are even.
2) in a 1 v 1 duel, it depends on the classes involved. It can be 10 seconds or 30 seconds, as long as it FEELS like its been an hour .
10 seconds, btw is actually the time it takes to fire every weapon once in TT.

Nightmare1, on 12 June 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Thanks! I think the main issue is not that we disagree that there is a problem, but more on what the problem is and how to solve it. You would like to see TTK increased by nerfing weapons somehow (damage, balance, convergence, etc.). Personally, I'm really tire of all the nerfs I've endured for the last three years, and would rather see new content introduced to balance the game. Things like new weapons, maps, game modes, role warfare, tier systems, etc. would go a long way, I think, towards improving TTK without needing resort to nerfs. At the very least, it's all needed anyways, so the sooner it's in game the better. Once it's all here, we can then revisit balancing. Until the game is more developed, any balancing attempts will just contribute to the game's instability by perpetuating these "Flavor of the Month" metas and discouraging players with the inherent inconsistencies.

Good debate and have a great weekend! Luck to you on the Event..

I don't see how removing instant convergence would be nerfing a weapon per se. Sure, you can call making a weapon hitscan that WAS PPFLD a nerf, but to me those weapons were never supposed to be PPFLD in the first place.

You make good points, and I hope your weekend was great and you did well in the event. (I was laying on a beach until yesterday, so mine was good, but no MW:O for me )

[Nightmare1]

Hotthedd, on 18 June 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Lots of good stuff that's too long to quote because readers will go goggle-eyed.

On the 36 points example I used, I was talking strictly about internals. Armor points would be factored in on top of that. Technically speaking, a Firestarter cannot one-shot an Atlas unless the component armor has been stripped and the internals already heavily damaged. That's what I was driving at.

Generally speaking, you have some good points. I still don't see PPFLD as a major issue due to the balance in weapons right now that, I think, feels pretty good. What I meant by nerfing would be that some weapons would be disproportionately affected more than others. For example, ACs, Gauss, and PPCs, already non-meta weapons that need a bit of help, would be hit hard while lasers would receive a mild nerf by comparison. LBXs, Streaks, LRMs, and SRMs would really be affected because shotgun is always shotgun and lock on is always lock on. In essence, the meta would shift to fast moving Mechs with splatter or lock on weaponry. Energy boats would be very fast with small laser or pulse laser weaponry. In other words, the meta would go from mid range, dynamic combat to a blend of fast moving "spray and pray," quantity-over-quality kind of CoD gameplay. Granted, there would be a few die-hard snipers that could sit stock-still in the back and shoot, but they would be at a significant disadvantage, above and beyond what they already experience, when the CoD Mechs close in on them.

Overall, I still think the best solution is pilot training and tactics. I rarely have limbs blown off in single salvos, despite normally fighting on the front lines. In terms of numbers, it's unlikely to be one-shotted unless something big hits you from behind, and even then it's chancy. I just don't see it happening very often.

Nice! What beach? I'm going to one this weekend; got a volleyball match followed by a second viewing of Jurassic World!

[Hotthedd]

Nightmare1, on 18 June 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

On the 36 points example I used, I was talking strictly about internals. Armor points would be factored in on top of that. Technically speaking, a Firestarter cannot one-shot an Atlas unless the component armor has been stripped and the internals already heavily damaged. That's what I was driving at.

Generally speaking, you have some good points. I still don't see PPFLD as a major issue due to the balance in weapons right now that, I think, feels pretty good. What I meant by nerfing would be that some weapons would be disproportionately affected more than others. For example, ACs, Gauss, and PPCs, already non-meta weapons that need a bit of help, would be hit hard while lasers would receive a mild nerf by comparison. LBXs, Streaks, LRMs, and SRMs would really be affected because shotgun is always shotgun and lock on is always lock on. In essence, the meta would shift to fast moving Mechs with splatter or lock on weaponry. Energy boats would be very fast with small laser or pulse laser weaponry. In other words, the meta would go from mid range, dynamic combat to a blend of fast moving "spray and pray," quantity-over-quality kind of CoD gameplay. Granted, there would be a few die-hard snipers that could sit stock-still in the back and shoot, but they would be at a significant disadvantage, above and beyond what they already experience, when the CoD Mechs close in on them.

Overall, I still think the best solution is pilot training and tactics. I rarely have limbs blown off in single salvos, despite normally fighting on the front lines. In terms of numbers, it's unlikely to be one-shotted unless something big hits you from behind, and even then it's chancy. I just don't see it happening very often.

Nice! What beach? I'm going to one this weekend; got a volleyball match followed by a second viewing of Jurassic World!

Thanks.
While I am not saying PPFLD is game-breaking, when it is coupled with the ability to Alpha Strike several PPFLD weapons at the same reticle, it becomes THE go-to strategy. I would love to see other viable options. Once that happens, I think it becomes possible to introduce role warfare a bit more practically. (Of course, dynamic missions and maps would help this exponentially). The only real "balance" in the current state is that both teams can do it.

ACs would still be effective, they would just require a tiny bit more face time to deliver the full payload.
Gauss Rifles would actually be getting a buff in my opinion, as they would still be PPFLD. A true sniper weapon that is dangerous at any range.
PPCs would be unaffected, keeping the PP + splash.
LB-Xs would be getting a buff, IMO. Being single-shot they would spread a bit, but require less face time. If PGI introduced slug ammo (FLD with a small CoF), they would become a brawler's weapon of choice.
LRMs need a total re-work anyway. (Better dumb fire ability, faster speed, lower arc, but fire in groups of 5 like TT, etc.) You probably have good ideas for this as well.
Lasers are hitscan and hot. (Re-working the heat system could do wonders)
Pulse Lasers might need a slight nerf. Their PPFLD at such a low relative weight without needing ammo is slightly OP comparatively.

I really do not forsee my suggestions pushing gameplay towards CoD, actually further from it. CoD is run and spray with instant kills. (and no FF, re-spawns, etc.) Trust me, that is the LAST thing I would EVER want for a MechWarrior game. Frankly, I would see the GR sniper as more of a team player than now, where it feels like they are...not.

Again, you are right. NOTHING would be better than proper training for newer players. That alone would fix 99 problems.

Thanks, I just made a quick getaway to Biloxi. Stayed at the casino. 2 hour drive. Taking the kids to Seaside in Florida later in the summer. Have a great weekend and good luck!

[Alardus]

Okay, so you make it so people can't press \ to "alpha-strike" anymore.

Now I just roll my fingers across 1-2-3 and get the same effect, or set all weapons to group 5 and hit 5.

[DrSlamastika]

man wake up, you had a bad dream lol

[Jaeger Gonzo]

After all this time, only an idiot don`t see any problem in PPFLD.

All generation of somehow fail bandaids are invented by PGI simply be cause of that.

Homeless Bill idea about Targeting Computers was best, simple and elegant and would adres this instantly. It was based on idea that you have perfect aim as long as you don`t shot all weapons at once.

[Nightmare1]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 20 June 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

After all this time, only an idiot don`t see any problem in PPFLD.

All generation of somehow fail bandaids are invented by PGI simply be cause of that.

Homeless Bill idea about Targeting Computers was best, simple and elegant and would adres this instantly. It was based on idea that you have perfect aim as long as you don`t shot all weapons at once.

Nice attitude there buddy.

Frankly, PPFLD has not proven to be a particularly big hurdle for me to overcome. I torso twist and use cover very effectively, preventing most enemies from obtaining the chance to inflict major PPFLD against me.

I would say that if someone is having too much trouble with PPFLD, then they are not playing this game right.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

PGI invented hated charge Gauss mechanics, nerved PPC to the ground, nerved Jump Jets to Hover Jets, introduced well hated Ghost Heat etc. etc. Basically introducing on convulted band aid already on other.
Yeah all this be cause there is no problem at all with PPFLD.

Try to twist 50 PPFLD in to ST in medium then we talk.
You Night1 already did show us your deep lack of understandings of this game mechanics and BT at all.

Quiet ridicule your logic is as well, claiming that all is fall of players.
Players are not for game, instead Game is for Players.

[Nightmare1]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 20 June 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

PGI invented hated charge Gauss mechanics, nerved PPC to the ground, nerved Jump Jets to Hover Jets, introduced well hated Ghost Heat etc. etc. Basically introducing on convulted band aid already on other.
Yeah all this be cause there is no problem at all with PPFLD.

Try to twist 50 PPFLD in to ST in medium then we talk.
You Night1 already did show us your deep lack of understandings of this game mechanics and BT at all.

Quiet ridicule your logic is as well, claiming that all is fall of players.
Players are not for game, instead Game is for Players.

Work on your English and then maybe we'll try talking again.

Me and Hotthedd had a pretty good discussion.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Not that you have anything smart to say.
But we can have some more LOLs.