60 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 10 June 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

I was hoping the 1R would have an extra M harpoint as well as a 250 engine cap, then I could run five ML, two SRM6, Std250, three JJs, and 11 DHS. It'd be essentially a mini-4SP.

That's what the SIB is for since it has the 250 cap, it just doesn't have all the lasers (which the 4SP doesn't always use either going from GMan's list).

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Deathlike, on 10 June 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

lol

I thought the quirked ERPPCs got 8 heat like the Thunderbolts-9Ses (well, when it was the highly whined thing to do).

It's 12 heat with the quirks (8 heat for PPCs), so it's not too bad.

Considering that's 1 more heat than the 11 heat ERPPCs back @ the height of the meta... it should be alright...

Yarp, the ERPPC/PPC 1AA does 20 damage for 20 heat. But that ERPPC makes for a decent infighter weapon when pushed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 10 June 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

lol

I thought the quirked ERPPCs got 8 heat like the Thunderbolts-9Ses (well, when it was the highly whined thing to do).

It's 12 heat with the quirks (8 heat for PPCs), so it's not too bad.

Considering that's 1 more heat than the 11 heat ERPPCs back @ the height of the meta... it should be alright...

The heat of the ERPPCs on the TDR-9S when they were actually good was 7.5 heat, he is referring to the 2 PPC vs 3 LL on the current Vindi.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 June 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

4SP doesn't always use either going from GMan's list).

WAT

What heresy is that?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 10 June 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

WAT

What heresy is that?

The Hunchback whisperer also ran the 3 ML instead of 5 as well, so take that for what it is .

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 June 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

Except the mech is still bad and it also needs to separate it from the other 45 ton PPC spammer that has high mounts and the same engine limitations.

Hmmmm...twice the velocity boost (40% over 20%), 20% heat generation Quirk, half the cooldown on the PPC but twice on the MLasers. Superior twist and arm reflex, and IMO, better hitboxes ( I have always found the VND tougher than a BJ, personally).

*shrugs* Believe what you will. Fortunately, slowly I have seen their numbers increase over the last few months, because it's actually decent. But whatever you want to believe, keep on trucking.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 June 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

The Hunchback whisperer also ran the 3 ML instead of 5 as well, so take that for what it is .

Last time I ran a HBK-4SP

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 June 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

The heat of the ERPPCs on the TDR-9S when they were actually stupidly OP (as opposed to just darn good like they are now) was 7.5 heat, he is referring to the 2 PPC vs 3 LL on the current Vindi.

FTFY

[Templar Dane]

I tried a vindicator. Thought with the velocity quirk I could play it like my old ERPPC spider.

Jump, fire, hit the ground missing an arm..........

[LordMelvin]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 10 June 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Wat?

Two PPCs on the 1AA generates 16 heat while three LLs generates 18.9.

Hmmm. Feels cooler to me. Although my fire discipline with PPCs is atrocious so that probably counts for something.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

Hmmmm...twice the velocity boost (40% over 20%), 20% heat generation Quirk, half the cooldown on the PPC but twice on the MLasers. Superior twist and arm reflex, and IMO, better hitboxes ( I have always found the VND tougher than a BJ, personally).

*shrugs* Believe what you will. Fortunately, slowly I have seen their numbers increase over the last few months, because it's actually decent. But whatever you want to believe, keep on trucking.

Let's get the numbers straight first.

The only difference between the PPC quirks is the Vindi has twice the velocity but half the cooldown. They both have equal heat gen quirks. The Vindi has 15 degrees of twist over the BJ and of course lateral arm movement (not that it is a huge deal), but the BJ has better twist speed thanks to quirks. It does have better hitboxes to roll damage, but lacks high mounts so there is that.

Second, there is a reason anecdotal evidence isn't useful because I have seen more PPC BJ-3s than Vindicators period so yeah

Bishop Steiner, on 10 June 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

FTFY

No, you didn't.
God forbid an IS mech actually have a chance against clans, the return to the old pretty much killed the TDR-9S. If they had nerfed the Timby at the same time, then it would've been an ok balance change, but........

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 10 June 2015 - 06:13 PM.

[Deathlike]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 10 June 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yarp, the ERPPC/PPC 1AA does 20 damage for 20 heat. But that ERPPC makes for a decent infighter weapon when pushed.

Yea... but I kinda still pine for the LPL. Swap the PPC for LPL and add a med laser instead of spending it on DHS... and you might have something kinda weird but function (LPL+ML are pretty good together).

WM Quicksilver, on 10 June 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

The heat of the ERPPCs on the TDR-9S when they were actually good was 7.5 heat, he is referring to the 2 PPC vs 3 LL on the current Vindi.

Yes, I was aware after doing math.

3 LL is arguably going to be more reliable though... despite all of that (27 damage vs 20 FLD) at least with the current state of the game... and it doesn't even need quirks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 10 June 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

3 LL is arguably going to be more reliable though... despite all of that (27 damage vs 20 FLD) at least with the current state of the game... and it doesn't even need quirks.

No arguments there, though the Vindi does benefit with the PPCs and being able to run asymmetric to corner peek better for what it's worth.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

LordMelvin, on 10 June 2015 - 06:09 PM, said:

Hmmm. Feels cooler to me. Although my fire discipline with PPCs is atrocious so that probably counts for something.

Probably due to the LLs going off every 3.51s vs the PPCs every 3.3s

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 June 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

No arguments there, though the Vindi does benefit with the PPCs and being able to run asymmetric to corner peek better for what it's worth.

I figured out a long time ago... when the BJs first came out (as part of the PPC meta) that having PPCs on the same arm was SIGNIFICANTLY beneficial... if only for convergence.

I'm trying to envision a different scenario where one side had the PPCs and the other side being a shield arm of sorts... but I guess a PPC+ERPPC combo would help (one on each arm) if I just use the PPC side as the shield arm...

Edited by Deathlike, 10 June 2015 - 07:22 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 10 June 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

I figured out a long time ago... when the BJs first came out (as part of the PPC meta) that having PPCs on the same arm was SIGNIFICANTLY beneficial... if only for convergence.

I'm trying to envision a different scenario where one side had the PPCs and the other side being a shield arm of sorts... but I guess a PPC+ERPPC combo would help (one on each arm) if I just use the PPC side as the shield arm...

I always run the PPCs in the same arm on the Vindi, allows me to roll the damage a little better knowing I have a dead side of sorts. The BJ is a little bit different since it has high mounts and rarely take arm damage.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 10 June 2015 - 07:34 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Here are my quirk "suggestions." They are little bit out of hand on some, but some of these variants are bad *cough*1X*cough* and some rely on bad weapons *cough*LRM15/20s*cough*. I formatted the quirks like snafets page so hopefully that helps you understand the quirks a little bit more.

VND-1AA

• +11 Structure L/R Legs
  
• +7 Structure L/R Arms
  
• +15% Energy Cooldown
  
• +30% PPC (Family) Heat Generation
  
  • +15% Energy Heat Generation
• +40% PPC Velocity

Not much change here, just removed the missile cooldown to boost the other quirks. This would bring the PPC/ERPPC combo down to 17.5 heat per alpha and 2 PPCs down to 15 heat. This is the most viable one so I figure if anything else is needed, just boost either arm structure some more or give it some torso structure buffs (this of course could be applied to the others as well).






VND-1R

• +11 Structure L/R Legs
  
• +7 Structure L/R Arms
  
• +50% Missile Cooldown
  
• -40% Missile Spread
  
• +15% Energy Cooldown
  
• +15% Energy Heat Generation
  
• -15% Laser Duration

Missile spread is horrible on the big launchers, and is a contributing factor on why the 4J is much better than the 7M at LRM spam. The energy quirks are just copy pasta from the 4J and I left out the conditional missile cooldown stuff to allow some flexibility between mounting ALRM20 with Smalls for back or ALRM15 with Mediums for backup. Could be decent as a jumping 4J that sacrifices some DPS.






VND-1X

• +11 Structure L/R Legs
  
• +7 Structure L/R Arms
  
• -20% AC10 Cooldown (THIS IS A NEGATIVE QUIRK, I did it just to sync up the PPC and AC10 on recycle time and make room for other quirks)
  
• +20% AC10 Range
  
  • +10% Ballistic Range
• +25% PPC (Family) Cooldown
  
  • +12.5% Energy Cooldown
• +25% PPC (Family) Heat Generation
  
  • +12.5% Energy Heat Generation
• +25% AC10 Velocity
  
  • +12.5% Ballistic Velocity
• +25% PPC (Family) Velocity
  
• +10% Speed

Yes, there is a negative quirk on AC10 cooldown time, basically I wanted the cooldown, range, damage, and velocity to sync up so it was as easy to use as the 1AA, the difference being that hopefully this is more heat efficient (thanks to the AC10) than the 1AA since it runs slower. Also, it has a speed quirk because to mount any big ballistic you are probably strapped for tonnage so this way you don't feel as bad skimping on the engine.





VND-SIB

• +11 Structure L/R Legs
  
• +7 Structure L/R Arms
  
• -20% Energy Heat Generation
  
• +20% Energy Cooldown
  
• -20% Laser Duration
  
• +25% Missile Cooldown
  
• -20% Missile Heat Generation

Really just needed stronger quirks and better oriented ones. The LL range isn't really beneficial since the possible builds don't lend themselves well to poking. Instead I tried to make it like Johan suggests, a poor man's 4SP. Though an XL could be beneficial to mounting more firepower since the generic quirks allow for stronger energy weapons than just Medium Lasers.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 10 June 2015 - 09:54 PM.

[Yosharian]

Still no confirmation on whether every single PPC quirk also works for ERPPC... Doesn't seem likely.

I've just tested an ERPPC quirk with a PPC. Heat quirk definitely works. Suspect velocity quirk is working as well.

Edited by Yosharian, 11 June 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 June 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

The hitboxes aren't that bad honestly, it just suffers from being oversized for its weight (much like most mediums) and being a humanoid mech with most of its firepower mounted in the arms. Though I wouldn't be against more structure buffs since they seem to orient all their new quirks more to durability instead of insane weapon quirks.

The bottom of the STs could stand to be reduced slightly just above the leg joints and relegate that to Leg Hitboxes. The rear ST hitboxes are a bit too large for my tastes. Make it smaller overall while applying those hitbox changes and apply some structure and small armor buffs and it will be golden, plus the other quirks you posted.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 June 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

I always run the PPCs in the same arm on the Vindi, allows me to roll the damage a little better knowing I have a dead side of sorts. The BJ is a little bit different since it has high mounts and rarely take arm damage.

Personally, the visual dynamic hardpoints on the BJ with dakka or PPCs lends me to want to put it on one side (optimal for convergence anyways) plus the cockpit level visuals (from the weapon loadout) obscure my actual vision.

The BJ-3 was an amusing variant. However, I had no interest in keeping it (or reobtaining it) mostly due to the sub-250 engine rules for the most part.