94 replies to this topic

[Azeem447]

I recently had the question naw at the back of my head and decided to have a look at which universe might win in a war.

Obviously lore is completely incompatible with each other, though I find that warhammer is the weak leenk here. as the books make it seem as if space marines should always shrug off anything less than an auto cannon hit.

Because the lore seems to be so random sometimes as far as what can kill who in warhammer I instead turned my attechen to something that both these universes have in-common. Table top games!

both of these universes are played out on table tops and both often use the outcome of these games to actually decide what will happen historicly in each of there respective universes. as such I chose to base my comparison strictly on the table top game rules, playstyles, and stats. however this to was not with out problems. warhammer has game mechanics so that every unit can kill every unit. one example is where a friend of mine took down a preditor tank with half a dozen imperial guardsman with nothing but laze rifles. dispite this I found that a similar yet very different game mechanic exsited in battle tech.

Having played BOTH table top games I decided to try to convert both games into a one version. I prefer all the game Mechanics of BATTLETECH, and as such decided to convert what I could from warhammer to battletech universe. during this conversion I found that in changing warhammer to battletech rules, this was a much more fair conversion. the warhammer rules would have made almost all battletech vehicles over 45 tons nearly invinsible, and most battle armors into commander units with more wound points that the biggest tyranid I could find.

my conversion started on two fronts: Infantry, and Vehicles. taking a quick look at the vehicles armor I actually merely took these at face value.

Example: Vehicle - Land Raider.
Front armor= 14 Side armor= 14 Rear armor= 14

this actually seems to be a pretty easy conversion and that's just what I did. why? well, when I got to infantry and weapons I wanted to keep the type of game play where weapons seemed to still be useful against their own vehicles. if I doubled or in anyway changed the armor value of the vehicles I would see the need to do the same to any and all weapons. I quickly did some of the math I have not yet gotten to in this thread but found that basically a space marines rifle would be equivalent to an auto cannon 5 from battle tech. No way was that in anyway a fair conversion even if you go off lore. so again I took this armor rating as the base line for my conversions to battletech and tried to stay within these guidelines.

I now went to the infantry to figure out how best to convert them to battletech. I again took from the space marines, more specifically THE SPACE MARINES them selves. this proved a fun challenge but I think I found a somewhat fair conversion for them. I looked at all the states for the space marine and lined them up to try to find how to treat them.

Example: Infantry - Space Marine. (important to note: with POWER ARMOR).
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
4 4 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+

now at first I went for T/Toughness but found that so many units in both imperial guard, tyranid, orcs, and more had the same toughness but in the game were much easier to kill than space marines. what made them easier to kill? there Sv/Save roll. this is the true bases for how tough each unit is, lower save= harder to kill. now how does this translate to battle tech. well I actually took some liberties here to try to make a some what more fair conversion. I gave the space maries a battlearmor ratting, but a very low armor rating of just 2, this does not include the pilot himself.

I got to this conversion by starting at a sv value of 5 for pilot seat, but ONLY if the save is less than 5. (for instance, a imperial guardsman has a save of 5 but is clearly not wearing anything even close to armor, just some flack plates. as such these untis will be given just infantry statis and not treated like battlearmor.) anyways back on topic, starting at a Sv of 5 = the pilot himself. for every Sv point less than 5 I added 1 armor point, as such a Sv value of 3+ now equiles a battle armor rating of 2. Terminators would have 3 armor with a save of 2+ but also have a new game mechanic of shields. fort this I mearly stated at 6 for an Invul save and 1 replenishible armor value for each point below 6. so a 5+ invul save is a 1 shield armor value, 4+ is a 2 shield armor value, and so on. now this does not count for storm shields as those merely ad to the standered battle armor value.

Now we get to weapons. ill try to write out all my logic but please forgive me if a miss something.

okay so I started with again the space marines, and this time went straight for the Iconic Bolt Gun.

Example: Ranged Weapon - Bolt Gun.
Range Str. AP Type
24" 4 5 Rapid fire.

now at first what I want is damage. ofcourse we would first look at str./strength but again just like toughness this is not a good base line as some bigger weapons have the same strength but a lower Ap./Armor penetration value. Ap. is what can nullify a Sv. value. and as such is what I used as my conversion method. as such a AP of 5 = 2 damage. 6=1 damage, 5=2 damage, 4=3 damage, and so on. thow this only counts for units treated to battlearmor satis, not infantry statis unless other wise specified.

I now went to range, I decided that one inch in warhammer was close enough to 10 feet in battletech. multiplying a weapons range by 10 then deviding by 30 meters = actually just take the first diget there and round up or down. Example: 24"=2/maybe3 spaces on a battletech map.

I have used these conversions to make what I felt was a fair comparison of the two universes and what I found is...............................

**DING DING DING** BATTLETECH IS THE WINNER!
battletech weapons are stronger, MUCH better range, and there armor is Vastly superior.

AGAIN I WILL STRESS THAT THIS IS SOLY BASSED OF THE TABLE TOP GAMES AND NOT THE LORE OF EATHER OF THE TWO UNIVERSES.


now that that disclaimer is out of the way, what do you guys think? Id love to see someone elses opinions/ views on my conversion methods. is there a fair way to upgrade heavy weapons and armor from warhammer to battletech? what do you think of my conversion method? where did I go wrong?

I hope this will be a fun topic for some and look forward to seeing what you have to say.

[Mazzyplz]

an elemental would wreck a space marine.

warhammer = starcraft.


no, really. when blizzard was making starcraft - they wanted to make a warhammer game, they couldnt'get the rights and had to replace the tyrannyds with the zerg.

if battletech mechs would fight space marines, the marines would get crushed, since they focus on production numbers to keep up with the hordes of orcs and tyrannyds. - btw orcs are stupid.
battletech mechs are superior in most ways to space marine tech.


as for btech vs starcraft - mostly the same, the terrans would get squashed.
however the protoss or the zerg could have a good chance of winning, since units in battletech are ill suited to deal with those rush tactics from the zerg, and the tech from protoss is completely unknown and at least 500 years ahead of the clans.

[Azeem447]

I certainly agree with you on all but one of your points. the basic comparison of a elemental vs. a space marine is, in my opinion, the spot on base line for why battletech's tech is in most ways superior.

battletech has very convenient crowed control in the form of flammers and machine guns, oh and pulse lasers. all of these weapons have a separate game mechanice for when dealing with infantry/rush units, that make them incredible formidable for anyone trying to overwhelm a mech or tank.

the only thing that would pose a challenge to battletech would not be titans as even the biggest titan would have an armor value equal to that of a 55 ton mech. no it would actually be, like with the protoss, shield technology. how ever! unlike warhammer were only the tau try to adapt, battletech factions are always adapting to new technology. In only 5 years the clan technological advantage was nearly nullified by the innersphere adapting stolen clan tech to there own mechs/tanks/battlearmor. warhammer factions would consider this action heresy and try to bath the innersphere in holy fire.

Edited by Azeem447, 29 May 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[S3dition]

There are no direct comparisons to the strength of a marine vs the strength of an elemental. However, in sheer industrial might, the Imperium would win. Titan legions vastly outnumber mechs and the inquisition openly uses planet scourging weapons. Tactically speaking, the imperium is also ahead of the battletech universe, with combined arms being heavily practice for over 10,000 years and without the need for drop ships to deliver ground forces. It would be trivial for units of terminators to deepstrike onto an orbital defense gun, destroy it, and allow thunderhawks to deliver enough ordinance to destroy any defending mechs.

I like battletech, but the industrial power built into the imperium to survive endless demon hordes and alien incursions would leave them with more than enough power to wipe the battletech universe.

[Azeem447]

I do not mean to sound rude or accusational as I hope this thread will help to flush out as near to the truth as possible.

However, though lore wise you might be right, based off the table top games, numbers do not lie. the Imperium and by extension all of warhammer 40k universe has Inferior range and armor. even there damage is mediocre at best though still a relevant threat.

you say that terminators could easily drop in and destroy an orbital gun, but these guns would be defended by infantry who have been trained to fight battle armor. battle armor has superior armor value so these terminators would stand little chance even just against infantry.

If you can show me how terminators or even just standard power armor is stronger than I have evaluated, please show me. I am more than happy to readjust my conversions if you can show me something new to go off of.

Again I do NOT mean this as demeaning in any way. I merely hope you can show me just how and why the imperium would win.

[Vanguard319]

Azeem447, on 30 May 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

I do not mean to sound rude or accusational as I hope this thread will help to flush out as near to the truth as possible.

However, though lore wise you might be right, based off the table top games, numbers do not lie. the Imperium and by extension all of warhammer 40k universe has Inferior range and armor. even there damage is mediocre at best though still a relevant threat.

you say that terminators could easily drop in and destroy an orbital gun, but these guns would be defended by infantry who have been trained to fight battle armor. battle armor has superior armor value so these terminators would stand little chance even just against infantry.

If you can show me how terminators or even just standard power armor is stronger than I have evaluated, please show me. I am more than happy to readjust my conversions if you can show me something new to go off of.

Again I do NOT mean this as demeaning in any way. I merely hope you can show me just how and why the imperium would win.

Sheer numbers? Superior tech means little if your willing to bury your enemies under a mountain of dead. The Imperium could win through simple attrition.

Edited by Vanguard319, 30 May 2015 - 09:42 AM.

[S3dition]

Azeem447, on 30 May 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

I do not mean to sound rude or accusational as I hope this thread will help to flush out as near to the truth as possible.

However, though lore wise you might be right, based off the table top games, numbers do not lie. the Imperium and by extension all of warhammer 40k universe has Inferior range and armor. even there damage is mediocre at best though still a relevant threat.

you say that terminators could easily drop in and destroy an orbital gun, but these guns would be defended by infantry who have been trained to fight battle armor. battle armor has superior armor value so these terminators would stand little chance even just against infantry.

If you can show me how terminators or even just standard power armor is stronger than I have evaluated, please show me. I am more than happy to readjust my conversions if you can show me something new to go off of.

Again I do NOT mean this as demeaning in any way. I merely hope you can show me just how and why the imperium would win.

Where is your evidence that it's "better"? Tactical Dreadnought Armor was designed to withstand the heat of a plasma core. Space marines are genetically engineered, not just selectively bred. Each marine has centuries of combat experience. Titans can withstand weapons that generate black holes.Chain fists can saw through wraithbone.

There is no indication of range in 40k, except the table top, which is compressed to fit on a 4x6 table. Even then, Imperial Guard artillery could hit 320 inches, which is across the length of your house (26 feet). But there is no real world number put on their range. Battletech on the other hand has atrocious ranging. Our tank rounds (ac10 in BT terms) has 10x the effective range and our missiles can reach several kilometers at the shortest range. So if range in 40k is short, it's no shorter than that of battletech.

Furthermore, the inquisition would just nuke the planets they don't care about and then send skitarii down to the surface to recover any usable tech. Anything they wanted would be crushed under the weight of a billion imperial guard (literally, they could just send a billion IG). That doesn't need to be technologically superior.

So... where exactly is your proof that battletech has better tech?

[SnagaDance]

What I see is trying to compare two game systems based on how their stats compare to each other. But remember that those stats values are only valid when compared within the same system!!!

To illustrate my point, lets compare 2 systems that are far easier to compare because they share the same basic make-up. Warhammer 40K versus Warhammer Fantasy. Taking a look at armor values you could see that a 40K Space Marine shares the same armour value as an Empire knight, a 2+ or better to save on a d6. Within each of their own systems that is a valid stat. But if you try to compare them they become meaningless. Otherwise Tactical Dreadnought Armour = Full plate + Shield on a Barded warhorse. And I think we can agree that would be silly.

So you can't just say which armour or weapon or whatever is better based upon the stats, they only apply within their own system. You could only extrapolate effects from them versus known quantities which you read about in the fiction. What a weapon's impact does versus a brick wall for instance, or versus an unarmoured man. Or how a piece of armour protects versus a falling steel plate or something (and this is assuming all those materials are normal as well, but with terms like ferro-crete or plasteel that are slung around even this is questionable).

And even here, like the OP has already stated, the fiction can differ wildly. Some makes the Space Marines seem unstoppable, other makes it look like a well slung crude Ork choppa might easily lob of the limbs of a Marine.

So there's not much left to compare the two fictional universes with. Except that they take place in the same galaxy (the Mily Way). And here the Imperium of man covers the whole width and length of that galaxy (granted, contested) and BattleTech occupies but a meager little slice by comparison.

So I'm going to back up other posters their opinion on this one. Regardless of tech the Imperium would win out. They have endless manpower and production capacity in comparison, and even better/worse are completely ruthless enough to throw endless lives into the grinder in order to defeat a foe.

[ExArcK]

Whether we're talking about lore/fluff, or stats - you're right, they don't lie - your numbers are bias. You yourself stated the original conversion wasn't even fair. Warhammer 40k numbers converted are superior. So much so that even a Space Marine bolter is roughly equivalent to a Mech's LBX-5/AC5.

Fundamentally, as the guy above me stated - really it's comparing to separate systems, in which, basically apples/oranges, until they're compared to each other via both sytems. Regardless, your own original conversion showed statistical superiority on damages and power thoroughput in favor of W40K.


Across the board, the stats are the same - Warhammer40k on the tabletop dominates, there just as well as it does in lore/fluff. Most of the ranges are similar, if not better for W40K. You realized this, and then modified your conversion process, to attempt to skew in favor of Battletech. I love battletech. It's a cool universe, but lets not pretend on the tabletop or lore that it somehow vastly is superior to W40K, because, as power ranges go, it's not.


And, whoever it was that mentioned issues with a Titan - their vales exceed 100 ton mechs. Not only for armor value, but damage thoroughput, and even size - the smallest of Titans are roughly some 14-17m in height, at some 400~ tonnes (some of the larger ones 40-50m, more than 2-3times bigger than the largest mechs) – standard ranges of 24". They even have weapons that would, as far as power go – nearly (and in some cases, totally) one-shot armor, such as the Mars Pattern Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Disregarding Titans, even the imperial guard with Baneblades would put out enough power thoroughput, with enough overarching armor to sustain against more than one battlemech at a time of Heavy or Assault class.

[DesiDioN]

Definitely agree with Warhammer 40k coming out on top, on the table. (No puns of any kind, intended.) I noticed above there as mentin of Terminators. Not even including massive armor bonus, and bonus against penetration, they also get multiple invulnerability saves. A base on which is 4/5+, an inherent save of 2+ against everything, and depending on certain weapon/gear they have - i.e. carrying Storm Shields, gives them a separate save of 3+ to all. This allows them to (on the tabletop even) save against planet cracking weapons. That's how powerful Termie armor is, alone.

[The Lost Boy]

The biggest battlemech is how tall? 10 meters or so? In 40k they litterally have walkng skyscrapers called titans. The smallest titans alone would ravage most battletech formations. The battle tech universe understands thier own tech, but the sheer massive scale that war is waged in 40k would bury the forces in Battletech. Whole worlds in 40k are FACTORIES(Mars) and ARMY BASES(Cadia). The humans in 40k dont know how most of it works but the capacity to field and wield what they have is not fathomable. And an elemantal would probably stand no chance against a marine. A marine can turn off half thier brain to fight without sleep for well over a week. A 40K dreadnaught has a guy inside(mostly a brain really) that may be THOUSANDS of years old. Some of the vehicles used, a Land Raider for example could be that old too. Some Mechs may be hundreds of years old but wouldnt match well with new stuff. The humans in 40k have FORGOTTON more than whole Battletech universe knows by a factor of at least 1000.

[The Lost Boy]

Azeem447, on 30 May 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

I do not mean to sound rude or accusational as I hope this thread will help to flush out as near to the truth as possible.

However, though lore wise you might be right, based off the table top games, numbers do not lie. the Imperium and by extension all of warhammer 40k universe has Inferior range and armor. even there damage is mediocre at best though still a relevant threat.

you say that terminators could easily drop in and destroy an orbital gun, but these guns would be defended by infantry who have been trained to fight battle armor. battle armor has superior armor value so these terminators would stand little chance even just against infantry.



If you can show me how terminators or even just standard power armor is stronger than I have evaluated, please show me. I am more than happy to readjust my conversions if you can show me something new to go off of.

Again I do NOT mean this as demeaning in any way. I merely hope you can show me just how and why the imperium would win.

Terminators have an INVULNERABLE save. In game terms that means 1/3 of the time that they would die, they simply dont. From ANY type of attack. Oh look and that one has a Melta(hot lava) gun. Or a Plasma(little bit of the sun in a gun)Cannon! They are usually deployed by Teleporting(beam me down Captain). Most regular attacks that might wound them are ignored 5/6th of the time. IE machine guns, flamers, laser rifles, heavy machine guns, cannons up to an AC 5, knives, clubs, pointed sticks. And they have 2 wounds. The real weapons that can wipe out a termie are, a plasma and melta gun/cannon, laser cannon, cannons like an AC 10 or higher, still allow they guy not to die 1/3 of the time.

Edited by Lemming of the BDA, 01 June 2015 - 01:18 PM.

[process]

For tabletop, you can't compare the two since each game is using different units of measurement.

From lore, WH40K is absurdly overpowered, which I think is a lot of the appeal of the franchise. There's really no competition with the Battletech universe, and I don't think it's important to make the comparison.

[Gladewolf]

....please remember that you are attempting to compare a universe that contains force-fields, lightsabers, blackhole tech weapons and dudes that can blow stuff up with their minds to a universe that is entirely conventional and far less given to the fantastic(and that's on the table-top) ...it's literally 40,000 vs the year 3050. There is 0 point in comparison and no logical way for a BT unit to be assigned In anything more strenuous than the Imperial Guard(where they would die the horrible death expected of any good cannon-fodder).

[Memnon Valerius Thrax]

guys.

First: The Emperor reks all.

Second: If the Emperor is away,call some Titan Legions and our Battlemechs are nothing against that.

Third: Space Marines is Master Race. 2 of them vs a Mech and the SM wins. Cuz they jump on it and one Powerfist into the Cockpit, thats it.

so dont compare BT with WH.

Fight for the Emprah, he protects.

[IraqiWalker]

Azeem447, on 30 May 2015 - 03:39 AM, said:

I do not mean to sound rude or accusational as I hope this thread will help to flush out as near to the truth as possible.

However, though lore wise you might be right, based off the table top games, numbers do not lie. the Imperium and by extension all of warhammer 40k universe has Inferior range and armor. even there damage is mediocre at best though still a relevant threat.

you say that terminators could easily drop in and destroy an orbital gun, but these guns would be defended by infantry who have been trained to fight battle armor. battle armor has superior armor value so these terminators would stand little chance even just against infantry.

If you can show me how terminators or even just standard power armor is stronger than I have evaluated, please show me. I am more than happy to readjust my conversions if you can show me something new to go off of.

Again I do NOT mean this as demeaning in any way. I merely hope you can show me just how and why the imperium would win.

Your numbers are off by several orders of magnitude. First off, how on earth does an emperator titan, have the same AV as a 55 ton medium battlemech? Let me put this in a comparison that makes sense:

The Atlas, which is the tankiest assault mech out there, has roughly as much armor on it, as the big toe on an Emperator titan.

AV vlues aside, let's look at weapons:

What did you compare the Space Marine bolter to? It's literally a handheld RAC5.

The Hellstorm cannon mounted on the bigger titans is the rough equivalent of at least a Naval AC 100,000. That's ONE arm mounted weapon, and I'm still low-balling it here. Lore-wise a single salvo from an Emperator titan can level gigantic swathes of landmass. Weapons, and fire power like that doesn't exist in BT. The biggest boom you can get is from capital weapons, and nukes, and both of those qualify as small weapons in 40K.

The armor on a space marine is the equivalent to that of a 20 ton light mech, at least, and that's on a soldier.


The scale between the two universes is too wide, to make an honest comparison where combat would be fair. You're taking BT, which has a significantly more realistic approach, and comparing it to 40K, the universe that literally created grimdark, and everything is turn to 11, and THEN turned to 11 again.

That Lasgun the Guardsman packs (mockingly referred to as "flashlight") is the equivalent of an ML. Hand held ML. You need protomechs to pack that firepower, or at least elementals. In 40K, that is literally the most common weapon in the imperium's infantry (A squad of 20 guardsmen, packs 20 MLs, without any heat penalties, or problems). Even the Guardsman flack armor (card box), is stronger than most BT infantry protection, short of powered suits, and even then, barely.


BT is awesome, it's realistic too. WH40K isn't. When a single cruiser from 40K is worth about as much as the entire battlefleet of clan wolf, comparisons don't work that well.

[Anjian]

I remember reading that the Space Marines would chop off the testicles of their dying but most valiant soldiers in order to preserve their genetic legacy. That is just so freaking bad ass.

[IraqiWalker]

Anjian, on 03 June 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

I remember reading that the Space Marines would chop off the testicles of their dying but most valiant soldiers in order to preserve their genetic legacy. That is just so freaking bad ass.

No, not testicles, in fact, we're not sure they even have testicles after the bio engineering process takes over. Their geneseed is what gets taken. For someone unfamiliar with the setting, yeah I can see how you'd think it's the testicles. The geneseeds are implanted glands that help mutate their body from human to Space Marine, and at set periods of time, they produce genseed. Which is harvested, and stored, ready to be implanted into another body to make another space marine.

In a way, they work as a reproductive organ. Geneseed is the only way to make more space marines.

So when Space Marine A is dying from being hit by 3 dozen 185mm shells, the Apothecary (medic) will extract the genseed from his body. Implant it into a new recruit, and that new recruit now has the legacy of his predecessor to live up to.

Those that are too valuable to die, or will live on, but can't be salvaged medically are taken, and implanted in a powerful war walker called "Dreadnaught". Those guys will live for hundreds, if not thousands of years (Bjorn the Fell Handed has been in the service for 10,000 years), they are usually the most experienced members of the chapter, and are also the deadliest, not just because they are now several tons heavier, with armor rivaling that of a medium battlemech in BT, but also because of their experience.

[Armored Yokai]

Battletech wins hands down.

[DI3T3R]

IIRC, the novel "Gift of the Emperor": A Grey Knight takes a shower with the retinue of an Inquisitor and one of the women smirkingly remarks something like "What a shame."

While surgical castration is nowhere mentioned, the novels indicate that the transformation into a Space Marine kills sexual desires. They aren't sexually attracted to women and in some cases are even unable to discern whether a female is pretty or not.


Comparing BT and WH40k:
Let's say, a Clan Galaxy fields 250 Mechs and 500 Elementals. A Space Marine Chapter fields up to 900 Space Marines, up to 100 Scouts and about 20-50 (?, gut-feeling) battle-tanks. A fair fight.
A RCT fields 108 Mechs, 324 tanks, ~3000 infantry-men, some air-support. A regiment of the Imperial Guard ranges anywhere from 500 to 8000 or more infantry-men, plus tanks. Again, a fair fight.
Fairness ends when we add Waaaghs that are millions of Orks strong. Or Tyranids. Or psykers. Or daemons.

While BT and WH40k have about equal firepower n' stuff, WH40k wins with sheer numbers.