22 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

You know, we had Ghost Heat prior to negative weapon quirks, but Ghost Heat is not restricting our freedom of choice, like sized hardpoints or MW4-like sized weapon slots would do - PGI definitely wanted to avoid such a restrictions, cuz they'd kill all the idea of slots+hardpoints MWO system. You still can equip weapons, you want, you still can use them, as you want - you'll just be penalized for improper use. And what now? We give you 'Mech with 5 energy hardpoints, only to nerf energy damage by 20%, i.e. to effectively take one hardpoint away from you? What the point in doing it?

So with implementation of negative weapon quirks PGI crossed the line, behind which restricting our freedom of build choice lays? Ok. Let's extract some positiveness from this negative change. We all got sick of invulnerable Lights campers, equipping ERPPCs and ERLLs. Let's just apply -1000% ERPPC/ERLL heat efficiency to every Light 'Mech in a game. If we are restricting some OP 'Mechs - let restrict them all! It would be fair. Ok?

[Hit the Deck]

I also want to talk about Clan Omnipods if I may. Supposedly you have two Right Arm Omnipods, A and B. Pod-A has 4E and Pod-B has 2E. There are three ways to make Pod-A not the default choice:

• add a couple of moderate negative quirks to Pod-A, nothing for Pod-B
  
• add a couple of small negative quirks to Pod-A, and a couple of small positive quirks to Pod-B
  
• add nothing for Pod-A, a couple of moderate positive quirks to Pod-B

Which one of the three would you choose?

IS mechs don't have Omnipods but IS pilot have mech variants to pick. On some cases, perhaps the above also applies.

[DarthHias]

MrMadguy, on 13 June 2015 - 02:54 AM, said:

We all got sick of invulnerable Lights campers, equipping ERPPCs and ERLLs. Let's just apply -1000% ERPPC/ERLL heat efficiency to every Light 'Mech in a game. If we are restricting some OP 'Mechs - let restrict them all! It would be fair. Ok?

What are you talking about? the invincible Light Snipers clogging the Light Que?

[Alistair Winter]

Ideally, I think they should have used core stats (e.g. torso twist, arm movement range, etc) and movement-based quirks to balance the TBR and SCR. Don't rob them of their firepower, but make them more difficult to handle. However, when PGI tried to do this with the Victor and the Highlander, it didn't work out very well.

I do think it's very positive that more people are using ballistics on their Stormcrow though. Laservomit is still king, but things are headed in the right direction. Now they just need to reduce heat, to give mixed builds (e.g. SRM, laser, CUAC) more DPS than boating builds. Unfortunately, this will lead to lower TTK overall, but I'll be happy to trade a slightly lower TTK in order to avoid the mindnumbingly boring laservomit meta.

[NephyrisX]

Alistair Winter, on 13 June 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

Ideally, I think they should have used core stats (e.g. torso twist, arm movement range, etc) and movement-based quirks to balance the TBR and SCR. Don't rob them of their firepower, but make them more difficult to handle. However, when PGI tried to do this with the Victor and the Highlander, it didn't work out very well.

I do think it's very positive that more people are using ballistics on their Stormcrow though. Laservomit is still king, but things are headed in the right direction. Now they just need to reduce heat, to give mixed builds (e.g. SRM, laser, CUAC) more DPS than boating builds. Unfortunately, this will lead to lower TTK overall, but I'll be happy to trade a slightly lower TTK in order to avoid the mindnumbingly boring laservomit meta.

While I have never been slave to the meta, considering I use 2xALRM10s, 4XCERML and 1x CERPPC with the TBR-PRIME, in light of the laser nerfs and AC buffs, I have been messing with the Timby lately.

I found out that 2XCUAC-2s are hilariously troll-ey, although dual CUAC-5s does have potential.

[Bishop Steiner]

Only thing Alarming is that they haven't been used before as needed.

Some mechs are stupidly OP. Instead of globally nerfing weapons, or Global Buffs that just lead to Power Creep and future problems, selectively Nerfs on certain Chassis and Pods is an intelligent way to manage it.

Also, there aren't Negative "weapon" quirks. It's Negative Quirks assigned to Pods and Chassis. Sorry if people can't build around those (and most good clan players are doing just fine in the TBRs and SCRs still) but if people need ridiculous Meta-Crutches, I don't feel too sorry for them.

NephyrisX, on 13 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

While I have never been slave to the meta, considering I use 2xALRM10s, 4XCERML and 1x CERPPC with the TBR-PRIME, in light of the laser nerfs and AC buffs, I have been messing with the Timby lately.

I found out that 2XCUAC-2s are hilariously troll-ey, although dual CUAC-5s does have potential.

I've been running 2x ERLL in my Left Arm and a UAC10 in the RA with 3 MG in th eTorsos, and actually have a good ol time in my TBR-Prime.

Alistair Winter, on 13 June 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

Ideally, I think they should have used core stats (e.g. torso twist, arm movement range, etc) and movement-based quirks to balance the TBR and SCR. Don't rob them of their firepower, but make them more difficult to handle. However, when PGI tried to do this with the Victor and the Highlander, it didn't work out very well.

I do think it's very positive that more people are using ballistics on their Stormcrow though. Laservomit is still king, but things are headed in the right direction. Now they just need to reduce heat, to give mixed builds (e.g. SRM, laser, CUAC) more DPS than boating builds. Unfortunately, this will lead to lower TTK overall, but I'll be happy to trade a slightly lower TTK in order to avoid the mindnumbingly boring laservomit meta.

And with the minmax meta, who wouldn't be running 3x ERLL or 3x LPL on the LT of every TBR? No thanks, we had that concept with ERPPCs on the TDR-9S and seeing 90% of dropdecks running that was boring as heck.

[NephyrisX]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

I've been running 2x ERLL in my Left Arm and a UAC10 in the RA with 3 MG in th eTorsos, and actually have a good ol time in my TBR-Prime.

Tried a UAC10, 2xCMPL and 2xLRM10 build. Pretty fun, and those missiles serves as that extra bit of screen-shake annoyance.

[Hit the Deck]

Hit the Deck, on 13 June 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

I also want to talk about Clan Omnipods if I may. Supposedly you have two Right Arm Omnipods, A and B. Pod-A has 4E and Pod-B has 2E. There are three ways to make Pod-A not the default choice:

• add a couple of moderate negative quirks to Pod-A, nothing for Pod-B
  
• add a couple of small negative quirks to Pod-A, and a couple of small positive quirks to Pod-B
  
• add nothing for Pod-A, a couple of moderate positive quirks to Pod-B

Which one of the three would you choose?

IS mechs don't have Omnipods but IS pilot have mech variants to pick. On some cases, perhaps the above also applies.

I'm quoting myself because I think I wasn't clear so I want to say more. The first option is usually done because it's the easier way. If you pick option 2 or 3, then you must adjust a lot of things (pods or chassis) and therefore it's just make more sense to nerf the few superiors rather than adjust all or buff the masses (inferiors). This obviously has a drawback that it has bigger potential to create complaints because negative or red numbers never look good.

[Coolant]

still hurting over the Timberwolf and Stormcrow nerfs, eh? Advice for the future: don't pilot an overpowered mech, then you don't have to worry...

[Gremlich Johns]

Negative weapon quirks are PGI's way of getting players to purchase modules which will compensate.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 13 June 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

I do think it's very positive that more people are using ballistics on their Stormcrow though.

3 or 4 CERMED + Gauss wasn't a thing?

It was always a good platform... it was simply that the rest of the Clan Ballistics were terribad.

Coolant, on 13 June 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

still hurting over the Timberwolf and Stormcrow nerfs, eh? Advice for the future: don't pilot an overpowered mech, then you don't have to worry...

I still run them and still win. I'm not sure I feel the nerfs.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 13 June 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

3 or 4 CERMED + Gauss wasn't a thing?
It was always a good platform... it was simply that the rest of the Clan Ballistics were terribad.

Sorry, I should have been specific about non-gauss ballistics. I don't really count the gauss when I talk about ballistics, because it's the one ballistic that has been in a good place for a long time. The problem has always been the UACs, ACs and LBXs. And now we're finally seeing people use CUACs on their Stormcrows with regularity, which is good. Hopefully, ACs and LBXs will follow, but I'm kind of worried that PGI isn't going to touch them, because they're just placeholders untill they can work out the ammo-problem... in 2018.

But yeah, it drives me up the walls when people say "Ballistics have been good for a while. Just look at the gauss, for example." The gauss is the exception to the rule, it's not an example of how good ballistics have been.

It's actually kind of funny, because when you look at the Stormcrow stock builds for the different variants, you'll see just how much MWO rewards boating and punishes mixed builds. It shows how weapon synergy is almost non-existant in this game.
Specifically, the SCR-PRIME is a laserboat with good heat efficiency. The SCR-D is a missile boat with a mix of SRMs and LRMs, also good heat efficiency. The SCR-A, SCR-B and SCR-C are all mixed builds, and they all have horrendous heat efficiency.

PGI made ballistics hot to prevent ballistics boating. And they got laser boating instead.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 13 June 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[-VooDoo-]

I don't even play either of those mechs anymore. Regardless of what side of the fence your on...it really isn't fair to effectively destroy the mechs because of this, that or the other. Should just go down as a learning lesson on what to do and what not to do when creating mechs.

In any case, I have moved on and play other still functional mechs. Holding onto my hat for the hellbringer nerf bat...

-50% ecm range.
+300 heat generation.
+80% chance of omni pod popping off per hitreg.
+75% chance of "water in the knee" condition at launch which reduces movement speed by 50%.
Etc..

[One Medic Army]

If the choice is between negative weapon quirks, and power creep (and let's face it, it is). I'll take the neg quirks any day of the week.

Now, they could have given the Crow and Twolf negative maneuverability quirks, or negative armor/structure quirks, but let's face facts: it's entirely the laser builds that were the issue. To nerf all Crows and Twolves wouldn't have fixed the power gap between the laser and non-laser builds. The simplest way to do that was to nerf lasers directly on those chassis.

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 June 2015 - 12:28 PM.

[Mcgral18]

I found it funny they have the Crow -20% E quirks, without touching the +25% torso twist quirks.


It's still more agile than the Clam Lights.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 13 June 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

I found it funny they have the Crow -20% E quirks, without touching the +25% torso twist quirks.


It's still more agile than the Clam Lights.

I think the thinking behind that is for some the longer beam duration will hurt your effectiveness vs Lights.

It's like running IS LPL vs Clan ERLL vs Lights. You know which one is going to be more effective generally speaking vs those critters.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 June 2015 - 12:36 PM.

[MechaBattler]

You can't fix balance while keeping your NerfHammer locked in the toolbox. It's unpopular because people don't want their "favorite thing" to be nerfed. But it can be necessary.

[Escef]

MrMadguy, on 13 June 2015 - 02:54 AM, said:

So with implementation of negative weapon quirks PGI crossed the line, behind which restricting our freedom of build choice lays?

Your freedom is unimpinged. There are no mechlab ninjas that will sneak in and remove excessive energy weapons from your mech.

Just as laws against murder don't actually stop you from killing people. Oh, sure, there will likely be repercussions, so what? If you are willing to deal with the consequences than you are still perfectly free to do it. Me? I don't kill people because I don't want to. The consequences if I do factor into my decision making from time time (so glad I didn't carry a gun back when I worked with the public, I'd have been WAY too tempted to use it).

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quirks shoulda been used as a trait accentuating tool, more like makeup, bring out the best in the mech a little more and make it look better overall, but nothing like the current SCR/TBR negative quirks, or what they did to the VTRs......-20% to all mobility....lol.

More like what thye did to the CLan quirks. slight boosts to certain key traits on certain mechs. WHK-P and its +PPC Velocity and PPC heat gen. Not like what they did to the TDR9S, -50% heat -50% CD, -50% heat generation........

[Yosharian]

You're right, let's just revert the Timber Wolf nerfs and let one or two mechs reign supreme.

Face it, it's a fairly clunky method but SOMETHING had to be done about those OP mechs.

The alternative is worse.