3
Narcissistic Martyr, on 16 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:
You're being far too reasonable and articulate to be a member of these forums. I think I like you. Also, I must appologize for the disorganized and rambling nature of my earlier comment, I'm afraid my brain think good pills hadn't kicked in yet. Anyways, I'm going to put the main conclusion that I forgot to include here at the top and the rest will be more or less general commentary on your comments which you may ignore if you so choose.
Thank you kindly. I appreciate the good discussion over the concepts I laid out.
Narcissistic Martyr, on 16 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:
I think speed tweak is the problem. It limits the differentiation between chassis by forcing a maxium speed of 150kph before speed tweak and it greatly reduces the opportunity cost of extra speed. On an XL300 Jenner you gain the equivallent of 2.5 tons of extra speed. On one of the 55 ton triplets, speed tweak gives you the same speed boost you'd get out of 4.5 tons more engine if you have an XL325 (common engine in a lot of builds). On the Timberwolf? You get more than 6 tons of extra speed for free.
A number of light mechs could afford to shed a bit of armor, or a DHS, to fit that larger engine without too much trouble. Or they can go for more guns but sacrifice a bit of their ability to get in and get out. Medium mechs would seriously compromise their firepower, either due to heat or having to use fewer LPL and LL. Heavies and assaults would be the worst off with IS heavies and asasults in particular getting slowed down. This would slow the game down a fair bit, give those who chose to invest in speed a chance to scout.
A number of light mechs could afford to shed a bit of armor, or a DHS, to fit that larger engine without too much trouble. Or they can go for more guns but sacrifice a bit of their ability to get in and get out. Medium mechs would seriously compromise their firepower, either due to heat or having to use fewer LPL and LL. Heavies and assaults would be the worst off with IS heavies and asasults in particular getting slowed down. This would slow the game down a fair bit, give those who chose to invest in speed a chance to scout.
That I'm in pretty much complete agreement. I remember when I first started out . . . when I learned that you could grind out a skill to actually increase your speed I flipped out. That is a lot of tonnage, in engine, for free that you get just by having speed tweak. Now it's just part of the grinding to make a mech "useful". Whenever I go back to grind a new mech it is always a mindblowing experience to play those first matches to even get basics . . . the handling is just THAT different. It makes me wish I could afford to just GXP out everything I get. I think it also contributes to problems with the new player experience, as well as the game balance.
Narcissistic Martyr, on 16 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:
After rereading your suggestions, I think I agree with you. I think this attitude partially goes back to the lagshield era where more speed meant you got hit less which made you mighty. After that got fixed we lost a huge number of light mech pilots because they couldn't adapt. Personally, I've run an AC20 raven 4x with single heat sinks since closed beta and I think slower lights are fine. You really just need to play them like a medium mech, supporting the assaults and the like. In my AC20 Raven, I'm another 20 pinpoint damage whereever my big buddy needs it. At 100kph, I'm still fast enough to stay in range of fleeing lights and I hit hard enough to scare them off. However, the biggest reason fast lights are prefered is that it's really hard to scout with a slower light mech without ECM because you will die instantly.
No kidding. Adapting after the massive improvements to hit registration (around the same time we were "rewarded" with the 170kph speed cap) I remember so many people from my old unit giving up on lights; and seeing the light population plummet in general. It hasn't been easy to adapt to. It's also fed more and more into the mentality that speed is everything, especially for a light.
I just think it's sad that, because of the ultra-fast mediums and whatnot, that people are playing the slower lights more like mediums then the people piloting most of the mediums.
Narcissistic Martyr, on 16 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:
In lore they didn't want to have to source new gyros, new myomer muscles, redesign the legs, etc. That's why very few mechs got a speed boost. Once you get later in the time line you end up seeing a fair number of 50 ton 7/11/X mechs because that maximizes the availble free tonage for weapons and stuff at that speed. The ideal weight for a STD engine 5/8/x mech is 55 tons, which is why the Wolverine, Shadow Hawk, Griffin, and Dervish were all pretty darn good mechs in TT. Without JJ, a 5/8 STD engine mech is best off at 60 tons, one of the reasons why the PPC equipped dragon 1G was so good. I think my initial objection partially came more from my hatred of how stupidly they design mechs in TT. (Let's make the AC5 a primary weapon on a mech instead of using a PPC+2 heatsinks, let's make the light mech stupidly slow, etc)
Working backwards here, as soon as you made the remark about the AC/5 vs. PPC the only thing I could think about was the Clint. I love that mech, and I want to see it in MWO. It would make a great contrast to the Cicada and Fenris/Ice-Ferret for the 40 ton bracket, which are just oversized lights. However I think it's funny in TT that one of the first upgrades to the mech dumped the AC/5 for a new lostech ERPPC.
Now, besides the cost expenditures, it also came down to what you wanted the mech to do. For most mechs it was cranking out as much firepower as possible. You wanted to drop your enemy before you started taking too many crits; which was one reason why the "hole punchers" (AC/10 or 20, PPC, LL) were so popular . . . and are so popular in MWO. Of course, in MWO we can have mechs do that AND carry huge engines, because there's nothing stopping mechs from getting all the upgrades in the world; and because we're giving so many mechs (especially the newer ones) such huge engine caps with no differentiations.
Narcissistic Martyr, on 16 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:
From a mwo perspective I see your point though. The engine swapping allows you to adapt your mechs way more than in TT. It gives these quick mediums multiple roles depending on build. Build 7/11/X with an XL and you're a striker, a scalple aimed at any damaged mech, and anti light unit. Build 5/8/X with a std engine and you're a durable fire support unit that can move fast enough to deal with flankers and exploit gaps in the enemy lines. (or just keep up with the damn timberwolves). Build slower and you're extra guns working with the assaults. Basically IS medium mechs are the flexible workhorses of the team that can choose which role they want to play. I'm not certain I'd want to take this flexability away and eliminating speed tweak would help a lot. However, reducing the range of available engine sizes a bit like you suggested, I don't see a problem with. I'd probably consider doing an engine minimum as well to allow the slower mediums to have a better defined role. Agility across the board may need to be increased though.
Yeah, despite the fact that there is so much that MWO can pull from BT Lore, there are some things that just don't translate. Mediums should be flexible, but at the same point we don't want every medium being so flexible that there's no choice involved. Why EVER touch a Kintaro (despite being a good mech that I like) when you can grab a Shadowhawk that can do pretty much all the same stuff AND have Jump Jets AND have shielding arms?
Comparing that "medium trinity" that we keep going back to, there'd be more variety if there were reasons to choose different chassis, besides quirks. The Shadowhawk has JJ, but of course certain Wolverines have been "superquirked"; and both have solid shielding arms. Meanwhile the Kintaro languishes because it doesn't have anything unique. They need more differentiation, and engine caps should be a way of addressing that.
That applies to a lot of mechs, across the board. Why do the Zeus and Battlemaster have such high engine caps? It takes away from the uniqueness of the Victor and Awesome 9M, which were meant to be more agile. Maybe Orions wouldn't be considered junk if people didn't feel compelled to sacrifice all of their weapons space for a massive STD engine. People leave in the stock STD300 and feel "inadequate". Of course, the fact that people expect the Orion to perform like a Mad Cat is kind of a kick in the teeth to the mech.
Narcissistic Martyr, on 16 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:
While, I've never been that scared of fast mediums (I'm still fast enough to get away, or can leg one of their fat legs before they can kill me) I see your point. I can definitely see a new light player who doesn't have tweak yet freaking out because this big thing is right on their butt. Especially since they're going to have to start with a STD engine so their jenner will be going 110 or so and a commando, raven, or firestarter is even slower.
This is truer then you know, and not just for brand new STD engine mechs. A Commando 2D with maximum engine is only running at 136 before speed tweak. That leaves it prey for all kinds of mechs, especially if it's not running in a straight line, because you're trying to avoid weapons fire.
That's another thing so many people look past . . . the serpentine or zig-zag evasion maneuvers. They're pretty necessary to make sure your rear torso isn't immediately shot out from under you. However, they cause a mech to bleed off a LOT of speed. Sure, a Locust or non-ECM Commando/Spider variant might run at 170kph . . . but a mech running 110-120 can keep very good pace with them when they're not running straight lines, for quite a distance . . . enough to do very serious damage. Also, you'll never lose a mech doing 135 or more unless you just bolt; and then you run the risk of getting straight cored out the back.
