126 replies to this topic

[Poisoner]

I know its a TT rule that IS mechs with XL motors die from losing a side torso, but since PGI likes to pick and choose what rules they enforce, why continue to enforce this one?

My reasoning is, if IS mechs need huge buffs to armor and structure while having to take an XL to keep up with lightning fast clan mechs in order to stay relevant, why not just make both the clan and IS XL engines have to lose both side torsos or the CT before dying?

I think it could be a positive thing.

[Cyborne Elemental]

What would be the point of STD engines then?

I hear what you're saying, and IS will eventually get Light Fusion engines that will be exactly like Clan-XL.

I don't think you'll ever get PGI to even acknowledge the thought of making standard XL's work like that though, even with as much balance as it could bring to the game.

Edited by Mister D, 13 June 2015 - 07:18 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

I am ready for IS's LFE.

[FupDup]

Basically, the issue is that IS STD engines would be invalidated on most builds.

I think that whatever we do with the IS side, that the Clan XL does deserve a 10% speed reduction for losing a side. This value basically cancels out speed tweak, which I think is manageable enough that the sub-par Clan chassis can survive it well enough, while still being kinda noticeable.

[Poisoner]

STD engine would still have a place in heavy and assault mechs that need the crit space for large weapons.

Laser vomit might become more of a problem but atleast the size of the IS Double Heatsink makes it harder to spam them as the clans can.

[Pjwned]

Actually, clans just need an actual penalty that does anything at all for losing 20% of their engine instead of it being pretty much nothing, which PGI acknowledges but is too lazy & incompetent to do anything about it.

Poisoner, on 13 June 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

STD engine would still have a place in heavy and assault mechs that need the crit space for large weapons.

Laser vomit might become more of a problem but atleast the size of the IS Double Heatsink makes it harder to spam them as the clans can.

The only weapon in IS mechs restricted by crit slots in the torso is the AC20, that's it.

Edited by Pjwned, 13 June 2015 - 07:31 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

is mechs have massive advantages as a compensation already and i dont mean armor quirks, they can freely choose their engine, their endo is dynamic and they can pick it on any mech etc

[Andi Nagasia]

remember that Clan are also Limited in what they can do,
they do have XLs but they are locked so they cant change Engine size or even Upgrades,
making IS XLs Engines act like Clan XLs would not only render IS STD useless,

yes you could argue they take up 6 more Crit slots, but unless you want to mount an AC20 in a ST,
Chances are your not gonna have a problem giving up Ferro for an XL Engine, even for Heavies and Assaults,

now with all that Clan wont have the Ability to Counter most IS Builds,
so Clan will have to be Fully rebalanced with Quirks that Rival IS to make them work,

[Moldur]

I have no issue with making Innersphere XL engines survive a destroyed ST. As the above posts state, there's still room for balance and a place for standard engines. There's a myriad of possible balances to make it an OK thing to do.

Plus it's one less thing for Innersphere-biased balance **** to hold over clans' heads during balance "discussions." Maybe clan mechs could stop getting nerfed through the basement if people weren't allowed to scream "XL ENGINES OP XL ENGINES OP!!!! CLAMS HAEIAOPWEAHSD XL ENGINES!!!!"

Edited by Moldur, 13 June 2015 - 07:34 PM.

[FupDup]

Pjwned, on 13 June 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

The only weapon in IS mechs restricted by crit slots in the torso is the AC20, that's it.

Well, I guess that 2 UAC/5 or 3 AC/5 might also count, but that's really pushing it...

[Soy]

Poisoner, on 13 June 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

why not just make both the clan and IS XL engines have to lose both side torsos or the CT before dying?

No thanks.

[Poisoner]

Soy, on 13 June 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

No thanks.

I'm the type who hardly ever puts an XL in my IS mech. I know this is a fine line towards even more power creep but I am sick of our clan mechs getting their nuts roasted over the fire in the name of balance when the issues isn't the clans, its the bandaid upon bandaid of balance adjustments to a balance system thats been broken since closed beta.

[One Medic Army]

IS XL engines are well balanced vs IS standard engines on IS mechs.

If there's any problem, it's that there's no balance between clan XL and clan Std. Which is completely irrelevant because all clan mechs use XL engines.

Or in other words, no reason to change it. And if you do change something, change clan XL engines, not IS ones. And if you change clan XL engines, you ought to de-nerf some of their weapons as compensation. Most clan mechs are not OP.

[Mystere]

Moldur, on 13 June 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

I have no issue with making Innersphere XL engines survive a destroyed ST. As the above posts state, there's still room for balance and a place for standard engines. There's a myriad of possible balances to make it an OK thing to do.

Plus it's one less thing for Innersphere-biased balance **** to hold over clans' heads during balance "discussions." Maybe clan mechs could stop getting nerfed through the basement if people weren't allowed to scream "XL ENGINES OP XL ENGINES OP!!!! CLAMS HAEIAOPWEAHSD XL ENGINES!!!!"

Don't be fooled. That is what their constant and endless whining is all about -- make you and PGI give in in frustration. Don't fall for it. Be resolute. We already know PGI is very weak-kneed.

Poisoner, on 13 June 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'm the type who hardly ever puts an XL in my IS mech. I know this is a fine line towards even more power creep but I am sick of our clan mechs getting their nuts roasted over the fire in the name of balance when the issues isn't the clans, its the bandaid upon bandaid of balance adjustments to a balance system thats been broken since closed beta.

The same goes for you.

Edited by Mystere, 13 June 2015 - 07:50 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

FupDup, on 13 June 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

Basically, the issue is that IS STD engines would be invalidated on most builds.

I think that whatever we do with the IS side, that the Clan XL does deserve a 10% speed reduction for losing a side. This value basically cancels out speed tweak, which I think is manageable enough that the sub-par Clan chassis can survive it well enough, while still being kinda noticeable.

Should be around 50%, 10% is nothing these clan mechs are running around 20% faster than other IS mechs their size to start with.

[bad arcade kitty]

well, i see the same group of people who again write complete bs trying to justify any clan nerf they could think of, they also like each other posts again

[FupDup]

One Medic Army, on 13 June 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

IS XL engines are well balanced vs IS standard engines on IS mechs.

If there's any problem, it's that there's no balance between clan XL and clan Std. Which is completely irrelevant because all clan mechs use XL engines.

Or in other words, no reason to change it. And if you do change something, change clan XL engines, not IS ones. And if you change clan XL engines, you ought to de-nerf some of their weapons as compensation. Most clan mechs are not OP.

Actually, there are some Omnimechs like the Kingfisher and Stooping Hawk that do come with STD engines. They're pretty poopy because of it...

You're right about most Clan mechs not being OP, but the problem we're getting at here is more about the tech than the mechs. There are indeed some mechs that have big design flaws that counteract their tech advantages...but that goes out the window when we have Clan mechs that don't have shittastic design blueprints.

Right now people refer to the good mechs as the "trinity," but the trinity isn't gonna be just a trinity much longer. As time passes by, more and more well-designed Clan mechs will find their way into MWO as part of preorder packs. Are we going to have to put negative quirks on all of them? If we have to keep negative quirking any Clan mech that isn't poorly engineered, isn't that an indication of some kind of underlying balance issue?


An example I'm going to use here is my Adder, which I prefer to arm with 2 Clan Large Pulse Lasers. As most of us agree, the Adder itself is a pretty underwhelming mech...but the tech it carries is pretty damn good. In this case, the Clan LPL is probably pretty overpowered, and I say this as the guy who practically invented the 4 LPL Warhawk. My 2 LPL Adder can be described as an "underpowered mech carrying overpowered weapons." Something seems off about that...


The point of my rant here is that while most Clan mechs are either balanced or sub-par, the Clan tech itself is mostly outperforming its IS counterparts. The only real exceptions are ACs and LRMs (in the latter case, I consider it almost equal). Having to play whack-a-mole with every Clan mech that doesn't have a bad engine, or bad hardpoints, or bad pod space is a race that doesn't have a finish line. There's gonna be a point when we have to actually balance the guns and equipment themselves.

And after we do that, yes we're darn well gonna have to help out the sub-par ones in exchange.

Monkey Lover, on 13 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

Should be around 50%, 10% is nothing these clan mechs are running around 20% faster than other IS mechs their size to start with.

That might sound good on-paper, but in gameplay that would seriously suck to play. For example, an Adder or Kit Fox would be restricted to 58.3 kph...ouch.

A Clan XL nerf should absolutely be a part of the solution, but just nerfing the CXL alone can't solve our issues. Technically, if we look at it on-paper, you could say that even making the Clan mech DIE with its side loss would still be superior to an IS XL engine, because it only takes 2 critical slots per side torso instead of 3...that's a pretty dangerous line of thought to embark upon.

[Khobai]

No. IS XL should not be buffed.

LFE should be added instead. That would give IS their own heavier version of CXL.

Quote

Should be around 50%, 10% is nothing these clan mechs are running around 20% faster than other IS mechs their size to start with.

No. There should be no speed loss at all from losing a side torso. Because that makes shooting legs off pointless. You want to make clan mechs go slower you shoot their legs not their side torsos. Legging clan mechs is a valid strategy. The last thing the game needs is even more bias towards shooting mechs in the torso. There is enough of that as is. If anything we need more reasons to shoot locations other than the torso.

Edited by Khobai, 13 June 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[Mystere]

Monkey Lover, on 13 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

Should be around 50%, 10% is nothing these clan mechs are running around 20% faster than other IS mechs their size to start with.

Sigh! Clan Mechs do not have a choice that they are faster because they have fixed engines. Maybe Clan Mechs should also have the same level of customization as IS. What do you think?

FupDup, on 13 June 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Actually, there are some Omnimechs like the Kingfisher and Stooping Hawk that do come with STD engines. They're pretty poopy because of it...

You're right about most Clan mechs not being OP, but the problem we're getting at here is more about the tech than the mechs. There are indeed some mechs that have big design flaws that counteract their tech advantages...but that goes out the window when we have Clan mechs that don't have shittastic design blueprints.

Right now people refer to the good mechs as the "trinity," but the trinity isn't gonna be just a trinity much longer. As time passes by, more and more well-designed Clan mechs will find their way into MWO as part of preorder packs. Are we going to have to put negative quirks on all of them? If we have to keep negative quirking any Clan mech that isn't poorly engineered, isn't that an indication of some kind of underlying balance issue?


An example I'm going to use here is my Adder, which I prefer to arm with 2 Clan Large Pulse Lasers. As most of us agree, the Adder itself is a pretty underwhelming mech...but the tech it carries is pretty damn good. In this case, the Clan LPL is probably pretty overpowered, and I say this as the guy who practically invented the 4 LPL Warhawk. My 2 LPL Adder can be described as an "underpowered mech carrying overpowered weapons." Something seems off about that...


The point of my rant here is that while most Clan mechs are either balanced or sub-par, the Clan tech itself is mostly outperforming its IS counterparts. The only real exceptions are ACs and LRMs (in the latter case, I consider it almost equal). Having to play whack-a-mole with every Clan mech that doesn't have a bad engine, or bad hardpoints, or bad pod space is a race that doesn't have a finish line. There's gonna be a point when we have to actually balance the guns and equipment themselves.

And after we do that, yes we're darn well gonna have to help out the sub-par ones in exchange.


That might sound good on-paper, but in gameplay that would seriously suck to play. For example, an Adder or Kit Fox would be restricted to 58.3 kph...ouch.

A Clan XL nerf should absolutely be a part of the solution, but just nerfing the CXL alone can't solve our issues. Technically, if we look at it on-paper, you could say that even making the Clan mech DIE with its side loss would still be superior to an IS XL engine, because it only takes 2 critical slots per side torso instead of 3...that's a pretty dangerous line of thought to embark upon.

Sigh! Screw the IP then. Maybe MWO should just be shut down and replaced with a generic shooter with walking tanks. That should fix things.

[Poisoner]

Monkey Lover, on 13 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

Should be around 50%, 10% is nothing these clan mechs are running around 20% faster than other IS mechs their size to start with.

When hell freezes over.