52 replies to this topic

[Tincan Nightmare]

Ok, so from their first iteration into MWO, quirks were explained as a 'balancing' tool PGI was implementing to level out performance between the various mechs. They created their Tier List, ranking all of the mechs from both factions from 1 to 5 (best to worst), with the stated intention that quirks would be used to bring up the lower performing 3 to 5 tier mechs to the level of tier 1 and 2 mechs. As it was put forward, the high end tier 1 or 2 mechs would get little to no quirks while the bottom tier 5's would get a hefty 'help'.

Now when the quirks first came out, not surprisingly there were issues. Some mechs were soon labeled 'OP', some were considered to be subpar from not receiving quirks, while some complaints were that the quirks a mech received were wrong for that chassis/variant. Honestly, not to surprising since it was the first attempt.

The concern I now have though, is that the basic 'purpose' behind quirks has become lost, and that quirks have now spiraled far away from PGI's original intent. Instead of trying to create a level playing field between the various mechs, the ever changing quirks now simple shuffle which mechs are 'tier 1' and the new 'meta'. The 9S Thud is a perfect example, given a brief reign as the 'best' mech with 'op' PPC quirks, only to fall back into rarity when those quirks were reduced.

Another concern is how new mechs, such as the resistance mechs, got quirks when they were not yet even in the game, and their viability had yet to be determined. I really feel that the quirk system has started to run amok, especially as people now determine whether a mech is good or bad based solely on its quirks.

I accept and understand that there will never be 'true' balance, with all mechs of equal tonnage being equal in performance. But I do believe that if done right quirks could have helped reduce the gap in performance between 'bad' mechs and 'good', without simply creating an ever shuffling change in which mech is the top 'at the moment'.

So does anyone else share these concerns and feel that PGI has let the quirk system run out of control?

[Soy]

duh

[El Bandito]

Tincan Nightmare, on 14 June 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

So does anyone else share these concerns and feel that PGI has let the quirk system run out of control?

Just look at these Zeus-5S quirks. Mind you, Zeus 5S is already a decent mech in terms of firepower and size.
ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 10.00 % ADDITIONAL ARMOR (CT): 20.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LT): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RL): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LL): 13.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (CT): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LA): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LL): 7.00 MISSILE VELOCITY: 5.00 % LRM 5/10/15/20 SPREAD: -5.00 % BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 5.00 % BALLISTIC VELOCITY: 5.00 % UAC/5 JAMCHANCE: -30.00 % ENERGY RANGE: 5.00 %

Edited by El Bandito, 14 June 2015 - 02:44 AM.

[Yosharian]

Quirks are a perfect balancing tool, it's just the way PGI is using them makes it clear they have never balanced a multiplayer game before.

They'll (probably) get it right eventually, it's just taking too much time.

[michaelius]

Speaking about quirks what happened to we will do multiple more often smaller changes ?

[LordKnightFandragon]

El Bandito, on 14 June 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

Just look at these Zeus-5S quirks. Mind you, Zeus 5S is already a decent mech in terms of firepower and size.
ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 10.00 % ADDITIONAL ARMOR (CT): 20.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LT): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RL): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LL): 13.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (CT): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LA): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LL): 7.00 MISSILE VELOCITY: 5.00 % LRM 5/10/15/20 SPREAD: -5.00 % BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 5.00 % BALLISTIC VELOCITY: 5.00 % UAC/5 JAMCHANCE: -30.00 % ENERGY RANGE: 5.00 %

Yeah, Zeus is armored like a DW and can shield better then that Greek Phalanx. IT gets 2 layers of over quirked shielding on its right side. THen, if you try to dig your way through its actual important parts, you gotta dig through what amounts to a Dire Wolf, but a mech that has significantly better hit boxes and mobility and ability to twist away that damage. I have taken unholy amounts of fire in my ZEU and still been left standing.

Have had no less then about 7 mechs focusing fire on me and I managed to get away. Once I did die, cuz it was me vs the entire enemy team of about 9 of the 12 remaining enemy, but still...the pounding I took was insane.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 14 June 2015 - 02:53 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Quirks were a stupid idea from the day it was conceived.

They're just band-**** fixes, that don't do anything more than **** things up even more.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

michaelius, on 14 June 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:

Speaking about quirks what happened to we will do multiple more often smaller changes ?

Yes. I remember them saying that. I even stopped selling mechs I disliked just in case they'll change quirks.
I'd like to see the next iteration here.

@ topic:

Yes, the quirk system has started on an average level and evolved into the wrong direction. But I stopped worrying some time ago and continued playing anyway.

Edited by Sthtopokeon, 14 June 2015 - 03:00 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

The reason the original purpose of quirks has been lost is because the Stormcrow, Timberwolf and Dire Wolf completely changed the scale. They raised the bar. Previously, it would have been enough to balance all Inner Sphere mechs around the previous Tier 1 IS mechs, such as the CTF-3D and Shadowhawk or whatever else. There would be a number of Tier 1 IS mechs and quirks would be applied only to the underperformers, like bringing the RVN-2X and RVN-4X in line with the RVN-3L, for example.

But because the Holy Trinity was so blatantly superior, quirks couldn't just be used to balance the Inner Sphere mechs internally. Quirks become the tool to balance IS and Clans, and now all the Tier 1 IS mechs are dominating the meta precisely because of their quirks. And it's probably too late to change right now, unless they completely revamp the game.

I think it's funny because the word 'quirks' implies minor, interesting characteristics. It doesn't quite convey the monumental impact quirks have on the game. And for the life of me, I can't understand why PGI decided it was time to stop adjusting the core statistics (e.g. torso twist, arm movement, engine cap) for mechs in this game, or why they have refused to touch the number of hardpoints - despite blatant hardpoint inflation - since 2012.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 14 June 2015 - 03:01 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

El Bandito, on 14 June 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

Just look at these Zeus-5S quirks. Mind you, Zeus 5S is already a decent mech in terms of firepower and size.
ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (LOW SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (MED SPEED): 10.00 % TURN RATE (HIGH SPEED): 10.00 % TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 10.00 % 10% increased acceleration and deceleration speed, 10% increased turn rate and 10% increased torso twist rate, that only looks impressive when you list it as ten separate quirks. ADDITIONAL ARMOR (CT): 20.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RT): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LT): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LA): 10.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (RL): 13.00 ADDITIONAL ARMOR (LL): 13.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (CT): 10.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RT): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LT): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LA): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RA): 5.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (RL): 7.00 ADDITIONAL STRUCTURE (LL): 7.00 That's just under 20% additional total health, making this the only set of quirks that actually have a meaningful effect. MISSILE VELOCITY: 5.00 % LRM 5/10/15/20 SPREAD: -5.00 % Big deal, -5% LRM spread is practically nothing. BALLISTIC COOLDOWN: 5.00 % BALLISTIC VELOCITY: 5.00 % UAC/5 JAMCHANCE: -30.00 % There is only one ballistic hardpoint, who in their right mind would waste it on a UAC/5? ENERGY RANGE: 5.00 % All these weapon quirks are incredibly weak.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 14 June 2015 - 03:02 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Satan n stuff, on 14 June 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

I don't think that was the point of the post.
It's not that the quirks are too strong, but because there's so many of them and that they're a complete and utter convoluted mess that has no place in this bloody game.

Yes. I'm angry.
I'm always bloody angry.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 14 June 2015 - 03:08 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tincan Nightmare, on 14 June 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

Ok, so from their first iteration into MWO, quirks were explained as a 'balancing' tool PGI was implementing to level out performance between the various mechs. They created their Tier List, ranking all of the mechs from both factions from 1 to 5 (best to worst), with the stated intention that quirks would be used to bring up the lower performing 3 to 5 tier mechs to the level of tier 1 and 2 mechs. As it was put forward, the high end tier 1 or 2 mechs would get little to no quirks while the bottom tier 5's would get a hefty 'help'.

Now when the quirks first came out, not surprisingly there were issues. Some mechs were soon labeled 'OP', some were considered to be subpar from not receiving quirks, while some complaints were that the quirks a mech received were wrong for that chassis/variant. Honestly, not to surprising since it was the first attempt.

The concern I now have though, is that the basic 'purpose' behind quirks has become lost, and that quirks have now spiraled far away from PGI's original intent. Instead of trying to create a level playing field between the various mechs, the ever changing quirks now simple shuffle which mechs are 'tier 1' and the new 'meta'. The 9S Thud is a perfect example, given a brief reign as the 'best' mech with 'op' PPC quirks, only to fall back into rarity when those quirks were reduced.

Another concern is how new mechs, such as the resistance mechs, got quirks when they were not yet even in the game, and their viability had yet to be determined. I really feel that the quirk system has started to run amok, especially as people now determine whether a mech is good or bad based solely on its quirks.

I accept and understand that there will never be 'true' balance, with all mechs of equal tonnage being equal in performance. But I do believe that if done right quirks could have helped reduce the gap in performance between 'bad' mechs and 'good', without simply creating an ever shuffling change in which mech is the top 'at the moment'.

So does anyone else share these concerns and feel that PGI has let the quirk system run out of control?

Well the more they listen to us, the further this game will get from their vision. How do you balance a 40 ton Mech with a 55 ton Mech? The 55 ton can carry more/bigger weapons more armor but a lower top end speed. That goes for ever weight class. The bigger Mechs will always have a durability advantage, quirking can do nothing to fix that. And lets look at the top dogs. What are they? 55 ton, 75 ton 100 ton.

And for some reason folks think that is wrong!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 June 2015 - 03:26 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Juodas Varnas, on 14 June 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

I don't think that was the point of the post.
It's not that the quirks are too strong, but because there's so many of them and that they're a complete and utter convoluted mess that has no place in this bloody game.

Yes. I'm angry.
I'm always bloody angry.

No I don't think that was the point, I think the point was that the 5S came prebuffed, though it isn't quirked to anywhere near the level of some mechs.
The Zeus is tough for an 80 ton assault, but "tough" in this case means it can sometimes survive one more hit than another 80 ton assault. As I stated before, that is it's single biggest advantage and it isn't much.
If you want to complain about a convoluted mess, blame the system that requires this many quirks for a relatively minor buff.

[Appogee]

Whatever PGI said was the goal of Quirks when they were first introduced, it's clear what they actually are now...

They are:

• a means of ensuring we all need to buy and keep one of every variant, in order to keep up with the deliberate manipulation of the Meta.
  
• a substitution for weapon balance.

How many Thud 9S's and Thud Mastery Packs were sold during that brief period when it was the best ERPPC sniper in the game? How many Dragons have been sold once the 1N was uberquirked, and STK-4Ns?

When crap variants can become the best Mechs in the match, you need to be a Pokemaster to keep up with the meta.

[Satan n stuff]

Appogee, on 14 June 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

Whatever PGI said was the goal of Quirks when they were first introduced, it's clear what they actually are now...

They are:

• a means of ensuring we all need to buy and keep one of every variant, in order to keep up with the deliberate manipulation of the Meta.
  
• a substitution for weapon balance.

How many Thud 9S's and Thud Mastery Packs were sold during that brief period when it was the best ERPPC sniper in the game? How many Dragons have been sold once the 1N was uberquirked, and STK-4Ns?


When crap variants can become the best Mechs in the match, you need to be a Pokemaster to keep up with the meta.

Or you could be like me and be a pokemaster who doesn't care either way.

[EvilCow]

A travesty of proper balance, since inception.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Quirks were just a creation to increase sales on new packs.

Because nobody can actually think bandaids ontop of bandaids is an actual acceptable way to balance.

Edited by DV McKenna, 14 June 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

DV McKenna, on 14 June 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

Because nobody can actually think bandaids ontop of bandaids is an actual acceptable way to balance.

Well, if there were people in PGI that thought Ghost heat was a good idea, i'm sure there were people that thought quirks were a good idea too.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Juodas Varnas, on 14 June 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

Well, if there were people in PGI that thought Ghost heat was a good idea, i'm sure there were people that thought quirks were a good idea too.

I'd suggest they were the same people.

[Kiiyor]

Tincan Nightmare, on 14 June 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

Another concern is how new mechs, such as the resistance mechs, got quirks when they were not yet even in the game, and their viability had yet to be determined. I really feel that the quirk system has started to run amok, especially as people now determine whether a mech is good or bad based solely on its quirks.

While it is a concern, I can see how the quirks would come about from a little science being applied to unreleased variants.

PGI would know the exact dimensions of each mech, the exact positions of all their weapon hardpoints, the size of their hitboxes, and their mobility and maneuverability. If they looked at released mechs with similar shapes, loadouts and weapon placement, they would probably have a good idea of the shortfalls of each chassis.

As far as the quirks spiraling out of control, I don't think it's all doom and gloom. Many mechs were absolute rubbish without them, and are now competitive.

Things are better with quirks now, IMHO.

The biggest issue for me, are those chassis that are so irredeemably poorly designed that no amount of quirks will save them. I imagine the Awesome and Victor are sitting in a corner, hugging their knees and remembering times of yore when they weren't outclassed by every other mech on the battlefield.