47 replies to this topic

[TWIAFU]

Titannium, on 16 June 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

sry, but you are playing too dumb. you dont know what is PUG and premades ? well then...

So, avoiding all questions then.

I asked because your definition and mine might be different. To try and understand your view, I would need to know your definition in context of your post.

Since you cannot or will not answer very basic and simple questions and valid attempts to understand your view, resorted to name calling, there is no point to even attempt a conversation let alone a debate.

One can only conclude this is nothing more then you trolling, badly.

[Mr Hunter]

Gruinhardt, on 16 June 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

Foolish, like thinking CW matchmaker is broken. Maybe you should do some research before you post. CW does not have matchmaker.

Then how are matches formed? I understand there is no skill based system in place I understand that there is no pug/ unit mm in place. It is just plain stupid to think that there is no matchmaker. Dumber than dirt aint ya wolfie?

[KinLuu]

B8hunter, on 16 June 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

Then how are matches formed? I understand there is no skill based system in place I understand that there is no pug/ unit mm in place. It is just plain stupid to think that there is no matchmaker. Dumber than dirt aint ya wolfie?

There is no real matchmaker, because matches are simply formed on a first come, first serve basis.

[HerHareHair]

The matches are formed on a first ready, first served basis. You queue for say attack with your 11 friends. You are in the queue. In the next 10 minutes, random people will start joining defenders. If they manage to assemble full twelve (1/4th usually dropping in trial Mechs) before time runs out, they will leave prequeue and be pitched against you. If by any chance another 12 man forms up and queues before those PUGs manage to get their last man in queue - it's them that you will fight against. It is even possible to play against 12 guys that just installed a game and are playing their first game.

This system will work for 12 vs 12 organised groups. True, you could still be unlucky, and your superb team could fight against some newly formed players. Most likely, they would have someone experienced though, and as they should be organised, they would have a commander who would issue orders and have and plan. They would prove to be some kind of challenge for you. Both teams would have fun. And they would learn a lot, especially by loosing to a much stronger team. The population is too low (too few players in general, and too few premade groups) for this system to work (opinion based on personal observations).

The discussions I see everywhere focus on two aspects of the problem: cause and effect. Cause being the intended way the CW should work (premades), the effect being the way it's being played (randoms). The outcome of the problem is bad games for both sides (premades and randoms). The solution is usually sought in either forcing people to follow the cause (through various restrictions, downside being less players in CW), or adapting to the effect (split queues and matchmaker, downside being lower quality games in general and in case of split queues, fragmented population).

Cause proponents want competitiveness which will only be found in tight communication, training and organisation, while effect proponents want option for more casual CW. They are mutually exclusive which leads to a lot of forum-fighting. From what I understood, CW was supposed to be "hardcore and competitive endgame content" (citation needed).

The population is already too low to put any restrictions, or to split queues or put match maker in place. And so we wait for... Steam release maybe?

Live from CW frontlines,
- HerHareHair

Edited by HerHareHair, 16 June 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Gruinhardt]

My bad. I meant to say ELO based matchmaking. I apologize, happy? Now instead of coming to the forum saying PGI "fix this", come up with a working solution that satisfies everyone. For me the simple solution was disbanding my current small team and joining a larger unit. I didn't want to, but I believe this was PGI's intention from the beginning. MWO CW does not have the population numbers for a complex solution.

Split the queue, no way to stop large units from sync dropping.
Don't allow anyone with a unit tag in solo CW, defeats the purpose of having CW. Might as well just add dropship mode to public queue. Then you might as well disband all units and stop work on CW. MWO will be right where it was 6 months ago. Solo and group queue, with dropship mode added.
No disrespect H8hunter. Post your ideas on how to fix CW. Please keep in mind, population numbers, skill level, group sizes, and anything else that sound good to a few players but wouldn't upset others.

[Mr Hunter]

HerHareHair, on 16 June 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

The population is already too low to put any restrictions, or to split queues or put match maker in place. And so we wait for... Steam release maybe?

Live from CW frontlines,
- HerHareHair

This sums it up fairly well however that last bit I cant support even if we had steam release I want everyone to understand that the steam community is full of idiots. Generally MWO is a more intelligent community, while we have idiots they don't last long on account of they cant get past the learning curve and have all their weapons bound to mouse 1. Just imagine a MWO where the only thing anyone ever did was alpha strike.. at every range with every weapon (sniping with ac 20 or srms for example)

[Mercules]

Titannium, on 16 June 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

There is only one problem....

PUG , vs 12 premades, every f. game.

This and only this is destroying whole CW. But here you see a lot of defending bois, that say 48-10 score every match is absolutely fine and ok. (ofc they are in the team with 48).

I say CW in current form is total CRAP.

My unit rarely drops with a full 12. Don't get me wrong, we like to, but often there are 6 or 8 of us around that want to do CW. What happens then is we get into the match and TALK to the other people. If there are a bunch of just random people we take charge and tell them what our plan is and ask them to support it. If there is a another group of the same size we try to figure out a mutual plan with them.

The problem I see is that 12 people playing like 12 people(or maybe 2 teams of 4 or some other less than 12 grouping) think they should have a chance playing against 12 people playing like a team. Just because you didn't pick those other people doesn't mean they are not on your team for the duration of that match.

[Mr Hunter]

Gruinhardt, on 16 June 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

No disrespect H8hunter. Post your ideas on how to fix CW. Please keep in mind, population numbers, skill level, group sizes, and anything else that sound good to a few players but wouldn't upset others.

What I would do

• Add a warning to the faction menu along the lines of "Dropping Solo is a really bad idea"
  
• Add VOIP into the tutorial
  
• Add a "find a faction tutorial"
  
• Add a "find a unit tutorial"
  
• Put streak 6's on the turrets to discourage light rushes

The devs want people to play cw. However if you throw bunch of rookies and or pugs into a environment where 12 man units thrive there going to get their ass handed to them on a Ferro-Steel plate. Currently there is No way in-game that encourages pugs to join a group. The LFG is there yes but only if they use it. CW as a concept is great. Execution... not so much. Voip needs to be shoved down our throats. Grouping up needs to be highly encouraged. If I am missing something please tell me I am open to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

Edited by B8hunter, 16 June 2015 - 02:39 PM.

[Gruinhardt]

B8hunter, on 16 June 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

What I would do

• Add a warning to the faction menu along the lines of "Dropping Solo is a really bad idea"
  
• Add VOIP into the tutorial
  
• Add a "find a faction tutorial"
  
• Add a "find a unit tutorial"
  
• Put streak 6's on the turrets to discourage light rushes

Currently there is No way in-game that encourages pugs to join a group.

Wanting to win should be enough encouragement to join a group. But many players are to lazy or stubborn to join a unit. We also have a small but vocal group that insists there be a solo only queue.
Your unit suffers from the same problem as many other small units. Not enough people for a 12 man, and forced to play the pug lottery. Hoping the pugs you get are willing to work as team. I tried to build a unit, but finally gave in to joining a large unit.

[Araevin Teshurr]

PGI Will eventually fix CW as follows:
1. Offensive / Attacking other planets can only be done by members in units, and possibly in minimum groups of 3.
This makes some logical sense, a group of no unit mech pilots would never take a contract to attack a planet.
2. Defensive / Defend other planets could be done by pugs, but only allow non unit and 2 man or less of same unit groups.
This also makes more sense, as front line units are attacking planets, only contracted mercs or ready reserver (no unit mechwarriors) would be mustered for general defense.

3. Certain worlds will also be off limits to no unit members, allowing or funneling non-unit / pug players to vie for back water worlds where elite skills are not needed.

Give it time MWO will evolve...

[Mr Hunter]

Gruinhardt, on 16 June 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

Wanting to win should be enough encouragement to join a group. But many players are to lazy or stubborn to join a unit. We also have a small but vocal group that insists there be a solo only queue.
Your unit suffers from the same problem as many other small units. Not enough people for a 12 man, and forced to play the pug lottery. Hoping the pugs you get are willing to work as team. I tried to build a unit, but finally gave in to joining a large unit.

You do alot of assuming you know that? Who said my unit has trouble forming a 12 man? (we don't) And if people don't wanna join a unit that's fine by me if they use the conveniently provided communication tools to well communicate.

[stevemac]

I have had some close games against mixed teams or PUGS as you call them... Every House or clan has a dedicated TS server if your getting stomped. Go to one of them join a group for the night and have fun this is not MW 1-4 you cant solo the game and win even in pup games there is still some team work needed.

[Mr Hunter]

stevemac, on 17 June 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:

I have had some close games against mixed teams or PUGS as you call them... Every House or clan has a dedicated TS server if your getting stomped. Go to one of them join a group for the night and have fun this is not MW 1-4 you cant solo the game and win even in pup games there is still some team work needed.

This works. Just remember don't make a fool of yourself of a mod will ban you.

[Gruinhardt]

"You do alot of assuming you know that? Who said my unit has trouble forming a 12 man? (we don't) And if people don't wanna join a unit that's fine by me if they use the conveniently provided communication tools to well communicate."

Your unit can form a 12 man. How many times a week? During what time of the day? Who do you contact if you want to join your unit? Do you have a teamspeak channel? If so, what is the address? Are you a loyalist unit? Are you a merc unit? What is your gameplay style? Casual? Competitive? Are you willing to take in new players. Unit history?

You mentioned a tutorial for choosing a unit. How can anyone join your unit. I looked in the unit registration pages and 1COG did not appear. I tried entering 1COG and Coalition of Greatness into MWO search, and received no information about your unit. A couple posts mentioned the name 1COG. And results for the event challenge.

[stevemac]

B8hunter, on 17 June 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

This works. Just remember don't make a fool of yourself of a mod will ban you.

why would a mod ban me??

[Tarl Cabot]

Titannium, on 16 June 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

There is only one problem....

PUG , vs 12 premades, every f. game.

This and only this is destroying whole CW. But here you see a lot of defending bois, that say 48-10 score every match is absolutely fine and ok. (ofc they are in the team with 48).

I say CW in current form is total CRAP.

You are looking at it through the wrong lense, thus not offering possible solutions.

• Clan Defender VS IS Attacker
  
  • Any Clan warrior (GB/W/JF/SJ/etc) vs Specific House military, ie Any/All Clans vs DCMS/Kurita
• Clan Defender VS Clan Attacker or IS Defender vs IS Attacker
  
  • Specific Clan vs Specific Clan, ie Clan Wolf vs Clan Ghost Bear or FWLM/Marik vs CCAF/Liao

Aggressors/Attackers tend to be Units more often than not, unless specific minor factions are grouping up on their House/Clan TS (or using the LFG tool/hidden-out of sight/out of mind Faction Chat channel)

It makes sense that the attackers should be from only one minor faction, as it would not make any sense for a Davion unit, employed by AFFS/Davion, to attack a Clan world that is on the Kurita border and win it for the Draconis Combine/House Kurita.

Now if an pug Ghost Bear members select a non-Clan world to attack, or join an ongoing assault, while a full group IS unit is part of the defending force, that full unit will generally be queued up first. And if there are 22 defenders on planet, once that full group finishes and readies up again, they are queued up next since the other 10 defenders do not have a full deck yet.

As mentioned in several posts, there is no MM based on Elo, it is first come (full unit), first served.... (/smacks self, thinks of one of the History of the World-Part 1, begins to turn that phrase around... /chuckles) Bad, bad....

An option would be that any drops are not made up all of the same unit but with the current pre-Stream population that would likely cause more issues than it is worth.

Of course I have seen drops where the opposing full unit was either really not a competitive unit or extremely inexperienced and would get spanked by a pug group with 3-man unit and the rest pugs, and had two of the pugs provide directions that most followed. It is times like that that I wished there was some sort of mechanism that would allow people to create an ad hoc unit without having to jump through tons of hurdles.

What if you took the solo queue and on specific mode (skirmish) allowed 2-3 drops to become one, would your approach, your setup, your expectations change? Think about that. What if the solo queue had dropship mode but each player was restricted to one weight class. Pete takes a light so his other mech or two also have to be lights, either his own and/or trials?

Would people elect out of the skirmish mode? Right now in the normal queues (MM w/Elo) with just one mech people complain about being dropped with people who do not do what they think they should be doing (without communicating, of course!!!!) and the team being rolled. Now put those same people (no MM w/Elo) in a queue where it is both units and pugs, what do you really expect? Someone or someones have to step up and lead/provide direction, or it becomes the solo queue all over again. Faction TS allows those of like mind to form ad hoc units so they do not have to deal as much with those who only want to play the game like everyone else is an NPC.

[Tarl Cabot]

stevemac, on 17 June 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

why would a mod ban me??

I believe he is referring to the faction TS. A few people can be very, hmm, energetic, when providing direction, at times thinking they are a colonel (an almost general - a sgt said that to me once ) giving commands to privates and not knowing when they have gone overboard, or just plain making an excrement of themselves

[Mr Hunter]

stevemac, on 17 June 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

why would a mod ban me??

I wasn't talking about you in particular....

Now I also am thinking of 2 stars v 3 lances. Am I crazy? Probably! Oh and heres where clan weapons come into play they are better however there are fewer clans.

Edited by B8hunter, 17 June 2015 - 11:18 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Ace Selin, on 15 June 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

This.

As a long time PUG advocate, the best thing i did was join a unit. Win or lose we do it together, we have fun, talk crap and have fun playing together.

It's a shame though that more don't think like you do my friend and are determined to not interact in a mode designed around just that.

Wildstreak, on 16 June 2015 - 03:40 AM, said:

The last sentence here has some value but most of this post just further defines one of several problems with CW. This is not opinion, it is proven. Anyone defending this is defending bad game design.

Agreed to some extent. Though many of the issues I raised there are solvable by some attitude re-adjustment from the playerbase. All I feel expect the last one, I'm not sure what could be done about that.
I'm not defending the design as is, as obviously it has some flaws but the one issue that people keep whining about is caused by them and their poor attitude rather than PGI I'm afraid.

[Mr Hunter]

The worst thing about mp games is the other players.