68 replies to this topic

[cSand]

Madcap72, on 17 June 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Did that awhile back when I had no buildings, structures or other crap. blasting away at dudes and my buddy who was spectating "Are you mad at that apartment?"

"rent reduction strategy"

[Madcap72]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 June 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

fo?

FO Forward Observer. Directs fire support for MLRS, Airstrikes/CAS, Arty strikes, mortars and the like . In the case of this game, locks targets visually, with tag, UAV or possibly NARC though that is pushing it since FO's need to stay alive to keep the fire support working at max.

Also, in regards to ERPPC/ERLL using their standoff distance to shoot at enemies that's support by fire, which is different than fire support (Which is indirect fires LRM's/ Aistrike, Arty strike)

[Madcap72]

That's one of the shortcomings of this game, the lack of "role warfare". It's not PGI's fault though, it's the playerbase. Given the constraints of the game, there is every single analogous piece of weaponry, equipment, and physics models needed to conduct combined arms operations utilizing real life tactics that would smoke check all the "meta" play. The hold up is lack of knowledge base, which leads to no one trying anything new/ developing outside the box tactics.

[627]

If you want to give fire support, do this:



The rest, go shoot mechs!

[bad arcade kitty]

"a german soldier lighting his cigarette with a flamethrower"

[Kiiyor]

Ted Wayz, on 17 June 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Last night watched a guy repeatedly firing his ERPPC and LRMs into rocks as he ducked in and out of cover. He and two others were about 500m away from the rest of us. When asked to move up he said, "We are providing fire support".

First, if the terrain were our enemy I might half agree. But sitting on the far end of the map is not fire support. Fire support needs to be able to move with the unit and stay within a reasonable distance. Why?

You are a dead duck if their lights find you. You will be too far away for the team to fall back to support you. If the rest of your team is engaged they won't take fire for 500m just to help you out. Stay within a couple 100m and tings could be different.

If your team pushes you will be too far back to support. And by the time you realize this either the battle will be over or they will be killed, because you couldn't support. With your team dead you are dead. Stay within a couple 100m and you can move with your team without being on the front line.

LRMs arm at 180m. If you stay at just past that range from your team your rain will be incredibly effective against enemy brawlers as your payload will reach just as the next one is ready. If your missiles have to travel 500 plus meters the other team can finish the job before your first payload hits.

TLDR, if you are immobile 500m away from your team you are not fire support.

I... sort of disagree. Not to that specific example, but in general.

If you're in a faster mech with long range weapons, you can afford to hang back a little. If you've got good eyes on the battlefield, and a little situational awareness, you can afford to hang back a little. If you're in a good fire position, and are out-trading the enemy, you can afford to keep doing what you're doing. If you've got an escape plan, you can afford to be a little snobbish.

If you're keeping an enemy's head down, that means there's at least one mech that isn't shooting at your teammates. If you force more than one mech to move to another position, you've given the rest of your team an advantage. You don't have to be in hugging range of the rest of your team to contribute.

Denial of ground.

Of course it can backfire. If you're at the point where you're no longer shooting at anything, then YE BE USELESS, and should move. If you're set upon by a hungry hungry Huggin, you're doomed also (actually, you're probably doomed if your part of the group and a Huggin sets it's beady little eyes on you). If the rest of the team is committed to finishing as many laps of daytona as possible, you may just spend the entire match eating the dust of your greedy faster teammates in front of you.

However, if someone is comfortable with that playstyle, let them go. If they get blown to itty bitty pieces, then they'll learn a lesson.

While a death ball is the most common prevailing tactic in PUGS, it isn't the only one that works. I'm a direct fire support kind of guy myself, and my dual gauss Yager can do damage out to 2.5km. While I like to fight at closer ranges, i've had dozens of matches where i've been 300-500 m from the team, and have still cleaned up. If I had a single C-Bill for every time someone had criticized my role on the battlefield before discovering i'd tripled their damage and kills, i'd be able to afford... well, probably a UAV or something like that. Anyhoo, I think of group positioning not in terms of distance, but line of sight. If you can see other mechs on your team, they can probably see enemies attacking you, and unless it's at extreme range (500-1000m) they can probably assist you - and vice versa.

It really bugs me when other pilots decide your tactics suck because they don't fit their own narrative.

[Kilo 40]

One time I was in my LRM5 CAT-A1 on forest colony. There was a light from out team and an enemy mech(I forget what kind) out in the water. Our light was fighting the mech so I decided to provide fire support. so I start streaming LRM5s onto him and he starts pushing up against the rock while our light kept fighting him.

Then some guy starts mocking me how my LRMs are just hitting the side of the rock and what a n00b I am etc, etc.. I briefly thought about explaining to him that my LRMs may be hitting the rock, but that's those LRMs that aren't hitting the enemy are still keeping him pinned up against that rock while our light was strafing him. But then I decided that people like that aren't worth the effort and just because he doesn't know what I'm doing that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ted Wayz, on 17 June 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

TLDR, if you are immobile 500m away from your team you are not fire support.

And you are wrong.

Quote

Fire support is long-range firepower provided to a front-line military unit. Typically, fire support is provided by artillery or close air support (usually directed by a forward observer), and is used to shape the battlefield or, more optimistically, define the battle. Warships, for example, have long provided naval gunfire support. Artillery observers allow adjusting fire. Fire support has been used since the advent of cannons in warfare as artillery. Fire support, as an extension, is the marriage of artillery to the forces in contact. It is the direct ability to properly utilize artillery. It is distinct from direct fire, which is provided by the forces in contact.

Line companies in standard Heavy Brigade Combat Teams of In the US Army often utilize Fire Support Teams, or FST mounted in forward support vehicles to observe and adjust fire.

Whens the last time a a naval warship was on the field of battle with infantry? Artillery is usually a mile or more behind the fight as well.

Now the fact they were shooting helpless landscapes... Just means they are boots and need to get more experience providing Fire Support.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 June 2015 - 01:38 AM.

[Ursh]

In my 2.5 years of playing, most people who call themselves fire support or snipers lack the skill to do either effectively. They're the ones who say "Shut up dead guy" while they slowly maneuver and fire the occasional shot before they get ganged up on by the 7 mechs who are left, and end the match with half or a quarter of the damage of people who actually contributed. Lots of these guys just want someone else to tank for them so they can unload on an enemy without being harassed. Occasionally they'll get in a match where a good pack of flankers or brawlers draw the enemy out and they get to rain down their damage freely, and unfortunately they'll look at the end of round score and think they were the big reason for the victory, ignoring that the exact same tactic fails when they're on a team full of players as timid and inaccurate as they are.

At least flankers/strikers and brawlers tend to know what they are, and act accordingly...with some notable exceptions.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ursh, on 18 June 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

In my 2.5 years of playing, most people who call themselves fire support or snipers lack the skill to do either effectively. They're the ones who say "Shut up dead guy" while they slowly maneuver and fire the occasional shot before they get ganged up on by the 7 mechs who are left, and end the match with half or a quarter of the damage of people who actually contributed. Lots of these guys just want someone else to tank for them so they can unload on an enemy without being harassed. Occasionally they'll get in a match where a good pack of flankers or brawlers draw the enemy out and they get to rain down their damage freely, and unfortunately they'll look at the end of round score and think they were the big reason for the victory, ignoring that the exact same tactic fails when they're on a team full of players as timid and inaccurate as they are.

At least flankers/strikers and brawlers tend to know what they are, and act accordingly...with some notable exceptions.

As a former Fire Support Mech Pilot, What makes it harder for good fire support to be provided is lack of target locks. Because the team is so worried about getting the kill, that they refuse to use real teamwork.

[Mudhutwarrior]

In solo its a crapshoot to bring a support mech especially LRM boats. Better to be multi role if you want to be effective.

I enjoy getting ragged for having a sniper build when they say move up into the brawl. You want my armor points?

Just drive what you like and to hell with the tryhards whining. It's a game, not real life and your not going to get laid being a hero in MWO.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 18 June 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

In solo its a crapshoot to bring a support mech especially LRM boats. Better to be multi role if you want to be effective.

I enjoy getting ragged for having a sniper build when they say move up into the brawl. You want my armor points?

Just drive what you like and to hell with the tryhards whining. It's a game, not real life and your not going to get laid being a hero in MWO.

QFT

[Kilo 40]

Ursh, on 18 June 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

In my 2.5 years of playing, most people who call themselves fire support or snipers lack the skill to do either effectively. They're the ones who say "Shut up dead guy" while they....

so you die quickly, then spectate LRM/sniper players and back seat pilot them. got it.

[Rushin Roulette]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 June 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

And you are wrong.

Whens the last time a a naval warship was on the field of battle with infantry? Artillery is usually a mile or more behind the fight as well.

Now the fact they were shooting helpless landscapes... Just means they are boots and need to get more experience providing Fire Support.

Actually, most artillery platforms are immobile. Only in the past few years have the pinpoint cannons been replaced by mobile rocket launchers (mostly since the Stalin Organ during WW2). Most artillery is well outside of 1 KM, however, most infantry weapons also have a better range and accuracy than the weapons ingame here, so if you want to compare RL fire support with MWO fire support you also need to adjust the scales. In MWO that would roughly translate to an effective range for fire support well within the 500 meters mark to the opponents.

To be able to hit with LRMs and PPCs, you should ideally be between 200 and 500 meters to your target. and also mobile enough to be able to position yourself for maximum effectiveness. From the OP I read, that the player in question was 500 meters behind the own team. Usually even in a brawl, this means that the enemy was another 100 to 200 meters further away, leaving the support up to 700 meters and more from the opponents. This is not support, as the exceedingly slow travel of the LRMs means that the opponents have several seconds to reposition themselves to the next cover from the LRMs (note also that cover from the LRMS does not automatically also mean that they can not shoot at the rest of your team). Real fire support also makes sure that the rockets hit the opponents, or at least that the opponent is forced to take cover where they can not shoot at your teammates.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's one of the shortcomings of this game, the lack of "role warfare". It's not PGI's fault though, it's the playerbase. Given the constraints of the game, there is every single analogous piece of weaponry, equipment, and physics models needed to conduct combined arms operations utilizing real life tactics that would smoke check all the "meta" play. The hold up is lack of knowledge base, which leads to no one trying anything new/ developing outside the box tactics.

No the problem is weapons like indirect LRMs that require two mechs to use (spotter and LRM boat) arnt anymore powerful than weapons that only require one mech to use. In fact theyre less powerful because of how obnoxious ECM is.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The OP is sorta right and sorta wrong.

Fire support mechs should be positioned well a enough to be able to move with the team and not be left behind. Poor fire support units are often so bogged down with heavy weapons that they are too slow to react to team movements and too slow to keep up.

Fire support mechs should be a bit quicker and be able to move quickly to new firing positions as new opportunities present themselves.

Where I disagree with the OP is saying that a Fire Support mech should stay within a couple hundred meters of the group. I can understand a long range mech staying farther out. If I'm running ERPPCs, Gauss, LRMs, ERLLasers, etc... I can use range as protection from incoming firefire while doing good damage yourself. That makes sense.

Again though, if you are a player that likes playing at those more extreme ranges, you still need to have a build quick enough to move with the team.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rushin Roulette, on 18 June 2015 - 03:49 AM, said:

Actually, most artillery platforms are immobile. Only in the past few years have the pinpoint cannons been replaced by mobile rocket launchers (mostly since the Stalin Organ during WW2). Most artillery is well outside of 1 KM, however, most infantry weapons also have a better range and accuracy than the weapons ingame here, so if you want to compare RL fire support with MWO fire support you also need to adjust the scales. In MWO that would roughly translate to an effective range for fire support well within the 500 meters mark to the opponents.

To be able to hit with LRMs and PPCs, you should ideally be between 200 and 500 meters to your target. and also mobile enough to be able to position yourself for maximum effectiveness. From the OP I read, that the player in question was 500 meters behind the own team. Usually even in a brawl, this means that the enemy was another 100 to 200 meters further away, leaving the support up to 700 meters and more from the opponents. This is not support, as the exceedingly slow travel of the LRMs means that the opponents have several seconds to reposition themselves to the next cover from the LRMs (note also that cover from the LRMS does not automatically also mean that they can not shoot at the rest of your team). Real fire support also makes sure that the rockets hit the opponents, or at least that the opponent is forced to take cover where they can not shoot at your teammates.

Horse crap. I do that with my brawler Atlas. That is Front line range sir. Second line would be anything over 500M. Its why there are 2 lines of battle. I also don't want my Fire Support being engaged by the enemy lights easily like they would be within 500M. After all LONG range Missiles should not be used when the enemy is danger close! It's kinda in the name.

[Lugh]

Slepnir, on 17 June 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

being 800-1000m back is fine so long as you are aware of you surroundings and are in range to support the team.

Nope. It's not. Anytime you are more than 500m (that's one square) from your team you are not in range to support the team.

Why? The enemy will be ~500m from your team when the engagement begins. Which leaves YOU at 1300m to 1500m from the enemy.

This means that the precious time you spend 'repositioning' the enemy team's support is pouring fire on your guys while you are not.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lugh, on 18 June 2015 - 04:38 AM, said:

Nope. It's not. Anytime you are more than 500m (that's one square) from your team you are not in range to support the team.

Why? The enemy will be ~500m from your team when the engagement begins. Which leaves YOU at 1300m to 1500m from the enemy.

This means that the precious time you spend 'repositioning' the enemy team's support is pouring fire on your guys while you are not.

well if you have team work actually happening your allies will draw the enemy into the cover fire and I continually move up slowly to stay relevant.

That said, 800+ is pretty far off as slow as missiles are concerned.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 June 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 June 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

Horse crap. I do that with my brawler Atlas. That is Front line range sir. Second line would be anything over 500M. Its why there are 2 lines of battle. I also don't want my Fire Support being engaged by the enemy lights easily like they would be within 500M. After all LONG range Missiles should not be used when the enemy is danger close! It's kinda in the name.

Umm. there is no danger close for LRMs. The only danger close situation you get in MWO at all is for consumable Airstrikes and Artillery strikes. Everything else is pinpoint damage (Even if it is spread out with missiles, each missile still targets the mech and not the aproximate area where the mech is standing).

If you want to play LRMs effectively, you are not sitting in the back lobbing bottels at locks, you are actively in the fight repositioning yourself accordingly, depending on how the fight commences. If you are 500 meters behind your own team, you are more in danger of hitting your teammates who cross your LRM line of fire that you would be if you had direct line of sight to the enemy (As you would also see if any teammate were in danger of crossing the flightpath before he actually does this).

Your danger close argument is therefore invalid in the particular situation of MWO (not in real life though, as the immense ranges of modern artillery fire support means that it takes more than 10 seconds for the opponents to reach the artillery position )