49 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Dracol, on 17 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

As I recall, you are incorrect.

Now, with that said, when you factor in double basics, at 14 (maybe it was 13, been over a year since I did the math) DHS (10 internal, and 4 placed either in engine or external) they are more than double efficient. Once you go past that point though, than the ROI starts going below 2.0 average per DHS.

But it is only the 10 default DHS that receive the boost over other DHS. Easily to confirm. Take a mech with a 300 engine and add some weapons to bring down the heat figure below the default 2.0. Then add 2 DHS to any place out side the engine and take note of the heat efficiency. Then, remove those 2 DHS and then place within the engine and not the heat efficiency. You will notice the figure is exactly the same.

When people talk about Poordubs versus Trudubs, we're talking about things like this:

8 Trudubs, 2 Poordubs

10 Trudubs

6 Trudubs, 4 Poordubs

[Gas Guzzler]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 June 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

My best performing Twolf was and still is the gauss/5 ERML build. By best performing build with the Swaguar is the gauss/5 ERML build.

My gauss/5 ERML Timby is still better than my gauss/5 ERML Swaguar.

Timby still King.

Agreed.

Do you run high mounts or low profile?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 June 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Agreed.

Do you run high mounts or low profile?

Low. Having those high mounts are akin to having ears on the Timby.

[Dracol]

Mcgral18, on 17 June 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

That number is 17. But, we're talking out of the box TrueDubs.


Maths:
Cool Run is a 15% heat dissipation bonus.

(10) 0.2 heatsinks dissipate at 2 heat per second.
Coolrun brings that to 2*1.15
=2.3 H/s
or, 0.23 dissipation per heatsink

For a mech with 17 heatsinks, it's 2+ (0.14*7)
=2.98
*1.15
=3.427
0.215 per heatsink

18DHS:
2+(0.14*8)
=3.12
*1.15
=3.588
or 0.199 H/s dissipation per heatsink


Efficiencies make doing math annoying, but until that 18 heatsink mark, the buffed TrueDubs make up for the gimped PoorDubs.

There's also the opposite effect; a Firestarter with 10 heatsinks performs better than a Cute Fox, Myth Lynx or Urbie with 10 heatsinks.
Those lesser robots need 12 heatsinks to match (and exceed) the Firestarter, costing them 2 tons to be on equal terms, while being lighter will less pod space.

FupDup, on 17 June 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

When people talk about Poordubs versus Trudubs, we're talking about things like this:

8 Trudubs, 2 Poordubs

10 Trudubs

6 Trudubs, 4 Poordubs

Looking back through the discussion, I missed the point where it went from talking about Mad Cats to talking about engines that require heatsinks outside of the engine in order to meet the the min. 10 HS rule. My apologies. I am so used to responding to those you never figure in the pilot skills within their math.

With that said:

Mcgral18, on 17 June 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

There's also the opposite effect; a Firestarter with 10 heatsinks performs better than a Cute Fox, Myth Lynx or Urbie with 10 heatsinks.
Those lesser robots need 12 heatsinks to match (and exceed) the Firestarter, costing them 2 tons to be on equal terms, while being lighter will less pod space.

This statement seems to have incomplete information in order to convey the point properly. Is it the chassis that is making the difference, IE. quirks (which is weapon dependent) OR, does it have more to do with the engine size, which is chassis independent and delves into the less than 250 rating engine issue?

I ask for clarification mainly to help ensure readers are properly informed of why that difference exists.

[Alistair Winter]

Alwrath, on 17 June 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

EBJ's are good, but die just like any other 65 tonner, and its pretty quick.

Too bad it doesn't have the skinny phase-shifting hitboxes of the Doomcrow. Instead, it got fat cankles

[Kiiyor]

KHETTI, on 17 June 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

EBJ can't tank anywhere near aswell as TBR and lacks the TBR's mobility, i think the TBR's crown is safe for now.

Yep, this. I've mastered my EBJ's, and I think their performance is best described as a Clan Jagermech.

Lots of firepower, but fragile as hell.

[Elizander]

Why don't you place 1 ER Medium from the arm up to the higher mounted torso point?

[Widowmaker1981]

Elizander, on 18 June 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

Why don't you place 1 ER Medium from the arm up to the higher mounted torso point?

I would assume the reason is to avoid the hitbox extension for just 1 higher mounted laser. TBH if you were going to do that, best option would be This so you get 2x high mounted LPLs.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Meta never goes away. It only mutates.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The Timber Wolf will still be a bit better with more armor and JJs for the same speed.

IMO, the Jag seems to be resting comfortably between the Storm Crow and Timber Wolf when it comes to effectiveness. I'd like to remind you that both of those mechs have negative energy quirks.

I think the Ebon Jaguar will see negative energy quirks eventually, but since it is new and PGI doesn't want to tick off it's paying customers yet, it will be a while like it was with the Timby and Crow.

[Widowmaker1981]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2015 - 01:37 AM, said:

The Timber Wolf will still be a bit better with more armor and JJs for the same speed.

IMO, the Jag seems to be resting comfortably between the Storm Crow and Timber Wolf when it comes to effectiveness. I'd like to remind you that both of those mechs have negative energy quirks.

I think the Ebon Jaguar will see negative energy quirks eventually, but since it is new and PGI doesn't want to tick off it's paying customers yet, it will be a while like it was with the Timby and Crow.

im not sure its needed.

1) there are plenty of viable ballistic loadouts for the Jag (2xGauss, 2xUAC10, 3xUAC5 etc) so they wont ALL be laser vomit. only 1 out of 4 of mine is configured like that. (and it will be none if PGI screws its durations up, but at least it wont be scrapheaped like my Timbers are right now, since i dont like missiles much)

2) It has a MUCH worse CT hitbox than either the Crow or the Timber, making it far easier to kill than either. I dont see that as a problem because it needed a drawback.

3) Just because a mech actually competes with Thunderbolts isnt a reason to nerf it into the ground

[MeiSooHaityu]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 June 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

im not sure its needed.

1) there are plenty of viable ballistic loadouts for the Jag (2xGauss, 2xUAC10, 3xUAC5 etc) so they wont ALL be laser vomit. only 1 out of 4 of mine is configured like that. (and it will be none if PGI screws its durations up, but at least it wont be scrapheaped like my Timbers are right now, since i dont like missiles much)

2) It has a MUCH worse CT hitbox than either the Crow or the Timber, making it far easier to kill than either. I dont see that as a problem because it needed a drawback.

3) Just because a mech actually competes with Thunderbolts isnt a reason to nerf it into the ground

I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised. We will see.

Besides, the Timby and the Storm Crow had Ballistic builds, just laser vomit was easier and better. I don't think the EBJ necessarily does it better, I just think A/Cs are now better post A/C buff and that itself makes ballistics a better option.

Also, it is easier to CT core than a Timby, probably because it is 10 tons lighter than a Timber Wolf so it isn't going to tank like a 10ton heavier mech. Is it heavier than a Storm Crow, but I think people play the Crow a bit smarter and sneakier. People are still face tanking with the Jag like they are in their Timby.

As for point 3, I don't get that. The Timby competes with that mech as is anyway.

I'm not crying for nerfs. The JAG is way too new and I have yet to really have a chance to face one. I do know that people are really liking the ERMLaser/LPLaser combo builds because it bypasses the duration restrictions of the Timby and Crow. If this becomes really prevalent and re-enforces a meta PGI was trying to curb, I can see durration nerfs happening to the Jag too.

That's kind of what I was getting at. Just don't be surprised if it happens.

[Xeraphale]

Rest assured the Timberwolf will retain its crown. It can carry jump jets, it has lower arm actuators, carries more cooling, rolls damage better and has more armour. Also, once the C is released for c-bills every Timie will mount the high energy weapons too.

The low profile is very useful and all, but you still have to crest a hill to target the enemy and when you do that, they can return fire just the same.

The best thing about the Cauldron Born is that you can do 3x Cauldron Born 1x Ice ferret in CW.

[Widowmaker1981]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised. We will see.

Besides, the Timby and the Storm Crow had Ballistic builds, just laser vomit was easier and better. I don't think the EBJ necessarily does it better, I just think A/Cs are now better post A/C buff and that itself makes ballistics a better option.

Also, it is easier to CT core than a Timby, probably because it is 10 tons lighter than a Timber Wolf so it isn't going to tank like a 10ton heavier mech. Is it heavier than a Storm Crow, but I think people play the Crow a bit smarter and sneakier. People are still face tanking with the Jag like they are in their Timby.

As for point 3, I don't get that. The Timby competes with that mech as is anyway.

I'm not crying for nerfs. The JAG is way too new and I have yet to really have a chance to face one. I do know that people are really liking the ERMLaser/LPLaser combo builds because it bypasses the duration restrictions of the Timby and Crow. If this becomes really prevalent and re-enforces a meta PGI was trying to curb, I can see durration nerfs happening to the Jag too.

That's kind of what I was getting at. Just don't be surprised if it happens.

TBQFH if PGI dont want everyone running laser vomit they need to buff PPC velocity back to somewhere non ********. Id use PPCs more if they werent restricted to the Adder and Nova only (well, Warhawk too, but PGI made it impossible to get 15% velocity and a lower arm actuator, so that was a non starter for me. If my weapons are going to knuckle drag they had better be actuated).

The timber does ballistic loadouts BADLY. 2xUAC5 is the best you can pull off, you can do 2xUAC10 barely but not enough ammo, mainly due to the extra 2 DHS that ballistic loadouts dont need.

[Joseph Mallan]

The problem I see Widow is if it isn't one thing its the other and if it isnt that then its the third. I have seen players complaining about to many of every weapon system we have, Bulk is better.

[Cat-in-Exile]

This is the problem with nerfing the Timber Wolf's weapons rather than it's manouverability (or at least a combination of both), now many of the players default to thinking it's the loadout itself that needs to be nerfed.

[Almond Brown]

Wintersdark, on 17 June 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

kind of a bad way to put this, as clan Mechs come with all DHS in the engine out of the box.

Yup, 10 internal, extra's external. Strip a TW down. Base has 15 DHS, 10(TruDubs) + 5 (poor dubs).

No "special" Omni stuff at all.

[SpiralFace]

Xeraphale, on 18 June 2015 - 04:00 AM, said:

Also, once the C is released for c-bills every Timie will mount the high energy weapons too.

First, its the A that has the high energy mounts, and second, you might want to check the store. They came out for c-bills with the exact same patch that brought the EBJ.

[Xeraphale]

SpiralFace, on 18 June 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

First, its the A that has the high energy mounts, and second, you might want to check the store. They came out for c-bills with the exact same patch that brought the EBJ.

Thank you for the correction Spiral, I meant the A and noe that they're out for spacebucks then that just reinforces my point!

[Almond Brown]

Dracol, on 17 June 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

stuff

Is it the chassis that is making the difference, IE. quirks (which is weapon dependent) OR, does it have more to do with the engine size, which is chassis independent and delves into the less than 250 rating engine issue?

I ask for clarification mainly to help ensure readers are properly informed of why that difference exists.

Will try and clarify. The Maths shown relates to the Cool Run (Perk) and is directly linked to Dissipation rate. For Engines, each 25 rating increase the internal HS number by one. The increase continues until the 250 rating is reached. Then every 25 over that, get more HS added but they are not Internal to the Engine at that point. MWO places the FREE slots "under" the Engine but they are external for Heat Cap and Dissipation Maths.

So you get a MAX 10 internals, can only run a Mech with a min of 10 so the smaller Mechs have to add extra "externals" (of poor dub value) to reach the min of 10.

AFAIK there is nor other HS perk/buffs other than the Cool Run noted. No quirks have been added that modify HS behavior further...