53 replies to this topic

[Bohomit]

The best solution to this is to make clan tech unable to be repaired. Anyone can have them but clan mechs and weapons once destroyed must be re purchased, where IS can be repaired. It makes it fair to everyone, people only playing with c-bills can have them but the cant be reckless with them and if you are using cash you will have to pay every time you are reckless with your clan tech. Do this with both mechs and weapons, the only thing that can be "repaired" is reloading fresh ammo.

[Stexe]

An easy way to balance Clan vs IS tech is to reduce the number of players on the Clan side. Make the match 9 vs 10 or something -- it would give the Clans the ability to have more firepower and technology, but also allow the game to be balanced.

[Aeryk Corsaer]

I would prefer them to make Clan tech early on very rare and very expensive. Not even have a full list of equipment but random or what is not destroyed on te Clanner you took down. Repairing damaged Clan stuff should also be expensive.

[Schtirlitz]

I don't think it would be rare, but certainly expensive.
Or they can make every bit of technology available for everybody and no one will have the advantage.

[Dymitry]

stick clanners with clanners by default? everything is going to be more expensive on the clan side, so up to a player, you want to pilot madcat? (as the spheroids call it ) pay 2 and a half atlases, and you get to use your advantage only if both sides agree, or maybe in some staged events where terrain, fortifications etc. would give IS the tactical advantage. But underpower the clan stuff is not the way to go. Clanner and clantechs are -lore wise- god-like entities on the battlefield and they should remain so. Plus it is part of the fun, to fight against a greater foe and defeat it (from an IS perspective) or to fight with as a little force as possible and triumph (Clanners).

[famguy1]

Bohomit, on 04 July 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

The best solution to this is to make clan tech unable to be repaired. Anyone can have them but clan mechs and weapons once destroyed must be re purchased, where IS can be repaired. It makes it fair to everyone, people only playing with c-bills can have them but the cant be reckless with them and if you are using cash you will have to pay every time you are reckless with your clan tech. Do this with both mechs and weapons, the only thing that can be "repaired" is reloading fresh ammo.

I don't think that's a good idea, since at some point you are going to die anyway and that defeats the purpose of buying clan weapons. I think that, when the Clan invasion starts, Clan's technology will be rare(limited), very expensive and not as strong as in MW4 or something like a rare reward.

Als i doubt it would be possible to be fair, since players with Founder's Program are going to be richer that many other players. The devs said that they don't want players to buy dominance on the battlefield.

[Dymitry]

famguy1, on 05 July 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

The devs said that they don't want players to buy dominance on the battlefield.

But I guess that eventually in some aspects it will be possible, as paying players are effectively paying for themselves and whoever plays for free. Clan tech could be one of the ways... by the way if you think it was too strong in mw4, you should have played 2/3

[UnexpectedDmg]

well, this is going to be very difficult for devs to balance and avoid a major gear race...
clan tech:
1. "salvage/find rare" and the players that farm/play 24x7 will have a significant gear advantage (farming does not == better or deserving)
2. as this IS a free to play game they could "sell" clan gear which makes it a "must buy" option, those with more money gear up quickly

either way, its the start of nasty trend of gear/power escalation that tends to let the strong get stronger and drive new players away do to an inability to compete. Of the two option I believe #2 would be best as it provides the most effective path to balancing the combat field (and its a good business model for the devs)

[Jakob Knight]

famguy1, on 05 July 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

I don't think that's a good idea, since at some point you are going to die anyway and that defeats the purpose of buying clan weapons. I think that, when the Clan invasion starts, Clan's technology will be rare(limited), very expensive and not as strong as in MW4 or something like a rare reward.

Actually, at the start of the Invasion, Clan tech would be absolutely unavailable. The Inner Sphere was unable to obtain battlefield salvage in most cases because the Clans won 99% of the battles they engaged in, and when the IS won anything, the salvage was battered beyond recognition. What salvage and Clan items they did manage to obtain eventually took them years to figure out how they worked, and it was decades before they could begin making repair parts (well past the scope of MWO and into the Republic era). So, at the minimum, any Clantech gained by IS forces should be unrepairable and lost when damaged.

We're talking a couple of centuries difference in technology here, not just a few tweaks and innovation. The IS repair bays are simply not going to be able to fix stuff like this.

Besides, all of this is somewhat redundant. The Inner Sphere eventually produced its own versions of many Clan battlemechs, and it would not be impossible to just introduce those designs to satisfy the 'gotta-have-ma-Clanmech' crowd. Especially because those -could- be repaired since they used IS tech.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 July 2012 - 04:29 AM.

[Fire for Effect]

Jakob Knight, on 04 July 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

So no. 10 vrs 12 battles are not unreasonable. If anything, the sides should be 8 vrs 12. Yes, Clantech is that deadly.

I just copy paste what I had already said in another topic :

10 to 12 does not hit it,
*added* a weight limit is also quite useless as is 8 vs 12 a mood discussion


Example:

Clan side:

6 Mad Cat A 6 x 6330 = 37980 (6 x 75 tons)
2 Uller A 2 x 1939 = 3878 (2 x 30 tons)
2 Black Hawk A 2 x 3823 = 7646 (2 x 50 tons)

since the Mad Cat is probably the most well-loved Clan mech thats a good estimation. For comparision Daishi Primary 8901 Value 100 tons

Combined Clan Value: 49504

take note: note a single Assault Mech in the Clanner setup.



Inner Sphere:

4x Atlas AS7D 4 x 5371 = 21484 (4 x 100 tons)
4x Marauder MAD-3R 4 x 3556 = 14224 (4 x 75 tons)
2x Raven RVN-1X 2 x 1390 = 2790 (2 x 35 tons)
2x Hunchback HBK-4G 2 x 2334 = 4668 (2 x 50 tons)

combined IS value: 43166

comparision:
IS : 43166
Clan : 49504

So the IS has less that 90% combat potential of the Clans although Clans have 610 tons IS has 870 tons. the Clan force is also much more mobile than the IS Force, and all of the above are Omnis so that will also be an advantage that the IS cannot counter.

This Gap can close somewhat if and when advanced technology is more widespread, the IS Mechs above are more or less 3025 designs but in 3049 most Mechs are still without any advanced Tech also most of our Mechs will be without any real advance Tech changing Weapons from IS to pure Clan Weapons typically results in about 5% Combat potential increase, but IS weapons even advanced ones are inferior to pure Clan designs.... To make it even the force above would need another Marauder and an additional Hunchback or advanced Tech an Atlas AS-7K model with 2 Md pulse laser, XL Engine,2 ER Large laser, gauss rifle, AMS and CASE has t 5961 points but would still be far from the Clanners combat potential.

*added* tonnage is not exactly equivalent combat value is....

[Jakob Knight]

Fire for Effect, on 05 July 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

I just copy paste what I had already said in another topic :

10 to 12 does not hit it,
*added* a weight limit is also quite useless as is 8 vs 12 a mood discussion


Example:

Clan side:

6 Mad Cat A 6 x 6330 = 37980 (6 x 75 tons)
2 Uller A 2 x 1939 = 3878 (2 x 30 tons)
2 Black Hawk A 2 x 3823 = 7646 (2 x 50 tons)

since the Mad Cat is probably the most well-loved Clan mech thats a good estimation. For comparision Daishi Primary 8901 Value 100 tons

Combined Clan Value: 49504

take note: note a single Assault Mech in the Clanner setup.



Inner Sphere:

4x Atlas AS7D 4 x 5371 = 21484 (4 x 100 tons)
4x Marauder MAD-3R 4 x 3556 = 14224 (4 x 75 tons)
2x Raven RVN-1X 2 x 1390 = 2790 (2 x 35 tons)
2x Hunchback HBK-4G 2 x 2334 = 4668 (2 x 50 tons)

combined IS value: 43166

comparision:
IS : 43166
Clan : 49504

So the IS has less that 90% combat potential of the Clans although Clans have 610 tons IS has 870 tons. the Clan force is also much more mobile than the IS Force, and all of the above are Omnis so that will also be an advantage that the IS cannot counter.

This Gap can close somewhat if and when advanced technology is more widespread, the IS Mechs above are more or less 3025 designs but in 3049 most Mechs are still without any advanced Tech also most of our Mechs will be without any real advance Tech changing Weapons from IS to pure Clan Weapons typically results in about 5% Combat potential increase, but IS weapons even advanced ones are inferior to pure Clan designs.... To make it even the force above would need another Marauder and an additional Hunchback or advanced Tech an Atlas AS-7K model with 2 Md pulse laser, XL Engine,2 ER Large laser, gauss rifle, AMS and CASE has t 5961 points but would still be far from the Clanners combat potential.

*added* tonnage is not exactly equivalent combat value is....

One problem with the above is that the Combat Value system was designed for the TT game, and actual simulation warfare is very difficult to rate the same way, since it is not turn-based or as random. I'd hesitate to use CV to determine matches in MWO, especially since they are tweeking the performance of weapons systems (regular lasers now having a variable damage due to DoT, ect).

Also, alot of people reading the Forums probably don't have experience in CV and wouldn't have a basis for understanding how the numbers compare or are calculated. They probably will look at the numbers at the end and say "they are both near 45,000...must be fair enough".

Bottom line: Clantech is a major shift in combat capabilities beyond simple tonnage or numbers. Introduction into the game where PVP is the majority of the gameplay would result in a radical change in the combat environment in favor of Clantech-possessing players and further disadvantage players just starting in the game at that point (who will have to go up against these mechs with only starting units).

[MeiSooHaityu]

Well, one thing I was thinking, is that if Clan tech is introduced a year after launch per se, maybe what Mechs will be available will be a frankenstein of parts due to a lack of availablity of components or support (because it is all salvage).

Example: A Vulture/Mad Dog will not have dual heat sinks available or clan weapons. You will basically have a Mech running IS heat sinks and IS weapons. Maybe even an IS engine. The Mech might still have a small weight advantage or armor advantage, but it wouldn't be incredibly overpowered. Even if clan weapons were available, running a IS engine and heat sink config. would be enough to limit its potential (especially heat production, more limited weapon space due to single heat sinks and larger engine, etc..)

Just an idea.

[KuruptU4Fun]

famguy1, on 05 July 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

Als i doubt it would be possible to be fair, since players with Founder's Program are going to be richer that many other players. The devs said that they don't want players to buy dominance on the battlefield.

If a founder is in an IS house or a merc corp., it's not possible to bring his character into a clan. He'd have to start a new character without founders advantages.


But we still know several things in canon that balance the clans vs. IS to some degree. Fewer numbers on the battlefield. Rarity to actual clan technology in terms of supply and demand. Large expence in maintaining clan mechs. The eventuality of clan on clan infighting that allows the IS to recover.

So yes it's a good idea to limit the availability of clan technology. It's a good idea to make objectives for clans to conquer certain worlds before they gain a large quantity of clan tech. They have to reach planet D, but shipping lanes require they have to conquer and maintain superiority control of planets A/B and C to get that supply drop.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 05 July 2012 - 07:06 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

BTone, on 04 July 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

So Clan tech won't be available for a little while. All right, but when it does appear how will it be handled as far as pricing and availability? I'm pretty sure that even after the Clan invasion, Clan tech was widely unavailable. Now I'm sure many people remember MW4 in which you always had an inordinate amount of both Inner Sphere AND Clan tech available. This model seems obviously flawed for MWO. Be honest, whenever you visited the Free Market for weapons, when did you buy Inner Sphere weapons? Clan tech is more expensive, but not nearly enough to deter myself from buying it. (In MW4 of course.) Besides, the tonnage/damage ratio is superb to Inner Sphere alternates and is really just "better." So this would be pretty biased in MWO. People would just outfit their mechs with Clan tech and Inner Sphere technology would almost be phased out. (Especially with the introduction of Omnimechs.) I would have to say making Clan tech SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive and maybe adding a daily limit of Clan tech available would be a cool way of handling Clan tech. Right after the Clan invasion, the technology would be very rare and expensive and then as the timeline progresses, the Clan tech would get more available and affordable. Others' thoughts?

Well, If I were going to do it, it would be a multi-tiered approach.

1.) Numerical disparity: Clan vs IS matches would be set to one binary (two stars, a total of 10 Clan 'Mechs) versus one company (three lances, a total of 12 IS 'Mechs).

2.) Increased IS prices for Clan equipment: Canonically, many Clan item are listed as having the same cost, in C-bills, as the equivalent/comparable IS items (e.g. both the IS ER Large Laser and the Clan ER Large Laser are listed as 200,000 c-bills). Instead, the prices of all clan items would be triple that of the equivalent/comparable IS items (e.g. the IS ER Large Laser would cost 200,000 c-bills, but the Clan ER Large Laser would cost 600,000 c-bills).

3.) Tech incompatibility: items on a 'Mech of the opposing tech base (Clan tech on IS 'Mechs and IS tech on Clan 'Mechs) increase the post-match repair costs and regular maintenance costs of the 'Mech by a per-item compounding percentage. Complete 'Mechs of the opposing tech base would still have their repair and maintenance costs computed on a per-component compounding basis (where the engine, gyro, each individual weapon, each individual heat sink, and so on are counted as separate components).

4.) Limits on Clan starter 'Mechs: Clan players (both new starters and conversions from IS) would start their careers as Clan Warriors in "second-line Clan 'Mechs" (non-OmniTech BattleMechs built using Clan-grade technologies; examples include the Peregrine, Hunchback IIC, Grizzly, Highlander IIC, Supernova, and others), with use of higher-grade OmniMechs (including the Vulture, Thor, Mad Cat, and Daishi) being a privilege to be earned as a function of "Loyalty Points"/"Honor Points"/"Faction Rank"/etc.

5.) Range matching: Clan equipment and the corresponding IS items would have the same ranges. As an example, the IS ER Large Laser (canonically 570 meters) and the Clan ER Large Laser (canonically 750 meters) would then have the same range (either 570 meters or 750 meters), but both would still out-range the standard IS Large Laser (450 meters). Likewise, both the IS Ultra AC-5 (canonically 600 meters) and the Clan Ultra AC-5 (canonically 630 meters) would have then have the same range(either 600 or 630 meters), but both would out-range the standard IS AC-5 (540 meters). All other aspects of the weapons and equipment are kept in-line with the canon/TT values.

Under this scheme, "cross-teching" is still doable, but it is checked/balanced by it being incredibly expensive to use any tech that does not match one's tech base. (as well as providing a check against immediately filling an IS 'Mech to the proverbial gills with Clan Gear)

Limiting the options for starter 'Mechs also acts as a check on the sheer "ROFL-stomp capability" of the Clans, as well as promote 'Mech diversity (as not everyone and their brother(s)/sister(s) and their umpteen cousins would be starting in a friggin' Mad Cat).
(As a side note, it also keeps in-line with Paul's decree... )

Additionally, the range matching, as described, acts to make slightly decrease the performance gap between like weapons of opposing tech bases,while also ensuring that the Clans still maintain an advantage over the IS since they would still have a number of longer-ranged weapons that the IS just doesn't (canonically) have at the time of the Clan Invasion (e.g. the IS doesn't get the LB 2-X or LB 5-X or LB 20-X until 3058, nor does the IS get the UAC-2, UAC-10, or UAC-20 until 3057/3060, nor does the IS get ER Small Lasers or ER Medium Lasers until 3058, and so on).
Moreover, the Clan gear would still have its other classic advantages (less tonnage, fewer criticals, more damage per salvo) and disadvantage (equal or greater heat generation per salvo).

Overall, I think that it provides a reasonably-balanced method for enforcing a greater measure of balance between the two camps, without taking away too much of the Clans' technological or tactical advantage.

Your thoughts?

[BTone]

Strum Wealh, on 05 July 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Well, If I were going to do it, it would be a multi-tiered approach.

1.) Numerical disparity: Clan vs IS matches would be set to one binary (two stars, a total of 10 Clan 'Mechs) versus one company (three lances, a total of 12 IS 'Mechs).

2.) Increased IS prices for Clan equipment: Canonically, many Clan item are listed as having the same cost, in C-bills, as the equivalent/comparable IS items (e.g. both the IS ER Large Laser and the Clan ER Large Laser are listed as 200,000 c-bills). Instead, the prices of all clan items would be triple that of the equivalent/comparable IS items (e.g. the IS ER Large Laser would cost 200,000 c-bills, but the Clan ER Large Laser would cost 600,000 c-bills).

3.) Tech incompatibility: items on a 'Mech of the opposing tech base (Clan tech on IS 'Mechs and IS tech on Clan 'Mechs) increase the post-match repair costs and regular maintenance costs of the 'Mech by a per-item compounding percentage. Complete 'Mechs of the opposing tech base would still have their repair and maintenance costs computed on a per-component compounding basis (where the engine, gyro, each individual weapon, each individual heat sink, and so on are counted as separate components).

4.) Limits on Clan starter 'Mechs: Clan players (both new starters and conversions from IS) would start their careers as Clan Warriors in "second-line Clan 'Mechs" (non-OmniTech BattleMechs built using Clan-grade technologies; examples include the Peregrine, Hunchback IIC, Grizzly, Highlander IIC, Supernova, and others), with use of higher-grade OmniMechs (including the Vulture, Thor, Mad Cat, and Daishi) being a privilege to be earned as a function of "Loyalty Points"/"Honor Points"/"Faction Rank"/etc.

5.) Range matching: Clan equipment and the corresponding IS items would have the same ranges. As an example, the IS ER Large Laser (canonically 570 meters) and the Clan ER Large Laser (canonically 750 meters) would then have the same range (either 570 meters or 750 meters), but both would still out-range the standard IS Large Laser (450 meters). Likewise, both the IS Ultra AC-5 (canonically 600 meters) and the Clan Ultra AC-5 (canonically 630 meters) would have then have the same range(either 600 or 630 meters), but both would out-range the standard IS AC-5 (540 meters). All other aspects of the weapons and equipment are kept in-line with the canon/TT values.

Under this scheme, "cross-teching" is still doable, but it is checked/balanced by it being incredibly expensive to use any tech that does not match one's tech base. (as well as providing a check against immediately filling an IS 'Mech to the proverbial gills with Clan Gear)

Limiting the options for starter 'Mechs also acts as a check on the sheer "ROFL-stomp capability" of the Clans, as well as promote 'Mech diversity (as not everyone and their brother(s)/sister(s) and their umpteen cousins would be starting in a friggin' Mad Cat).
(As a side note, it also keeps in-line with Paul's decree... )

Additionally, the range matching, as described, acts to make slightly decrease the performance gap between like weapons of opposing tech bases,while also ensuring that the Clans still maintain an advantage over the IS since they would still have a number of longer-ranged weapons that the IS just doesn't (canonically) have at the time of the Clan Invasion (e.g. the IS doesn't get the LB 2-X or LB 5-X or LB 20-X until 3058, nor does the IS get the UAC-2, UAC-10, or UAC-20 until 3057/3060, nor does the IS get ER Small Lasers or ER Medium Lasers until 3058, and so on).
Moreover, the Clan gear would still have its other classic advantages (less tonnage, fewer criticals, more damage per salvo) and disadvantage (equal or greater heat generation per salvo).

Overall, I think that it provides a reasonably-balanced method for enforcing a greater measure of balance between the two camps, without taking away too much of the Clans' technological or tactical advantage.

Your thoughts?

This is a pretty neat idea. As a side note, will Inner Sphere pilots eventually have access to Clan mechs or will Clanners only get Clan mechs?

[Engineering]

Seems like the real solution is both simple elegant and just common sense. Clans vs Clans and IS vs IS are default. Clan vs IS is optional.

Lets be honest. Most players who want clan mechs don't want them so they can fight against equivilent foes they want them to ROLFstomp IS weaklings. If your not that kind of clanner than this option is fine for you. You'll be playing against others with the same equipment and if you do get a game vs IS forces you'll most likely be facing the best IS players who want the challenge rather than rank newbies.

This means everyone gets to be happy except the wannabe ROLFstompers who should never be happy anyways.

[Jakob Knight]

Strum Wealh, on 05 July 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Well, If I were going to do it, it would be a multi-tiered approach.

1.) Numerical disparity: Clan vs IS matches would be set to one binary (two stars, a total of 10 Clan 'Mechs) versus one company (three lances, a total of 12 IS 'Mechs).

As I have posted before, 10 to 12 is not nearly good enough to offset Clan advantages. Two Clan mechs concentrating their fire can reduce any IS mech to scrap in short order, while it would take twice that number of IS mechs to do the same to a Clan mech. Stop trying to use canon formations as a basis for setting up battles where there is no canon. The circumstances in MWO will be completely different than in the setup that gave rise to those formations (and cannot be replicated in MWO).

Strum Wealh, on 05 July 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

2.) Increased IS prices for Clan equipment: Canonically, many Clan item are listed as having the same cost, in C-bills, as the equivalent/comparable IS items (e.g. both the IS ER Large Laser and the Clan ER Large Laser are listed as 200,000 c-bills). Instead, the prices of all clan items would be triple that of the equivalent/comparable IS items (e.g. the IS ER Large Laser would cost 200,000 c-bills, but the Clan ER Large Laser would cost 600,000 c-bills).

Won't have any impact if the Clantech is in the hands of Clan players, as seems to be assumed by many in this thread. The idea that players will be able to join a Clan and therefore get instant access to Clan mechs and tech free of penalty is what alot of them are banking on. Also, why would that matter to an IS pilot who has Clantech? They will be generating three times the income by getting three times the number of kills/objectives with their mechs, so all it will do is offest the huge gains in combat performance, not control it.

Strum Wealh, on 05 July 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

3.) Tech incompatibility: items on a 'Mech of the opposing tech base (Clan tech on IS 'Mechs and IS tech on Clan 'Mechs) increase the post-match repair costs and regular maintenance costs of the 'Mech by a per-item compounding percentage. Complete 'Mechs of the opposing tech base would still have their repair and maintenance costs computed on a per-component compounding basis (where the engine, gyro, each individual weapon, each individual heat sink, and so on are counted as separate components).

In addition to the situation I described for 2) above, I will say that this would require additional coding and complication to the economics in the game, something I'm pretty sure is a low priority for devs trying to keep the game combat-focused, fix the ton of bugs that will inevitably come out with each update, and keep balance with the IS units by themselves. I just don't see this kind of per-component computational code going in without causing more problems with the game code than it will solve in balance (which I doubt it would do anyway).

Strum Wealh, on 05 July 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

4.) Limits on Clan starter 'Mechs: Clan players (both new starters and conversions from IS) would start their careers as Clan Warriors in "second-line Clan 'Mechs" (non-OmniTech BattleMechs built using Clan-grade technologies; examples include the Peregrine, Hunchback IIC, Grizzly, Highlander IIC, Supernova, and others), with use of higher-grade OmniMechs (including the Vulture, Thor, Mad Cat, and Daishi) being a privilege to be earned as a function of "Loyalty Points"/"Honor Points"/"Faction Rank"/etc.

The only difference between a second-line 'mech and an Omnimech is the ease of changing out weapons between missions. Indeed, many 'second line' units outclass similar Omnimechs (compare the Rifleman IIC and Warhammer IIC with the Omnimechs of the same range). They hit just as hard, are often even tougher to kill, and in MWO would have no difference in operational parameters (the mechlab makes changing weapons just as easy for regular mechs as Omnimechs between battles). There would be no disadvantage here, only advantage.

Strum Wealh, on 05 July 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

5.) Range matching: Clan equipment and the corresponding IS items would have the same ranges. As an example, the IS ER Large Laser (canonically 570 meters) and the Clan ER Large Laser (canonically 750 meters) would then have the same range (either 570 meters or 750 meters), but both would still out-range the standard IS Large Laser (450 meters). Likewise, both the IS Ultra AC-5 (canonically 600 meters) and the Clan Ultra AC-5 (canonically 630 meters) would have then have the same range(either 600 or 630 meters), but both would out-range the standard IS AC-5 (540 meters). All other aspects of the weapons and equipment are kept in-line with the canon/TT values.

Then the question comes up...why introduce Clan tech and Clan mechs at all? There are IS versions of almost all Clan mechs, and altering Clan tech items to be identical to IS tech would be no different than just introducing the IS versions of those mechs. If you don't, then you -still- have advantages that will put the Clan mech well over their IS counterparts (much harder to kill, more weapons per mech, more heat sinks, ect). Ranges are only a fraction of why Clan items would dominate the battlefield, especially if MWO is set up such that range isn't as important (as in the Ice City map recently revealed). It might help slightly, but I don't see just nerfing ranges as anything near enough to balance out their impact on the battlefield, and any change enough to do so would result in zero differences between IS and Clan units.


Sorry if I seem harsh in my criticism of your proposals, but I just don't see any way of putting Clan tech into players' hands without it becoming unbalancing. Some seem to think players will abide by arbitrary rules of engagement, when we know gamers will always seek any loophole or advantage to get kills, and could care less about 'it isn't canon'. Some think that if we limit the number of Clan vrs IS mechs, it will work out, not understanding that a ) there are no Clan factions, so everyone will be an IS warrior fighting for an IS faction using IS tactics, and b ) that matches are 12 vrs 12. Period. Try telling a player that just got booted out of a battle because they had a Clan mech that they can't play. End result is alot of players crying that they only lost because they were outnumbered, and having those players without Clan mechs quit the game because they feel they are not being given a fair chance to win when they do end up facing one.

Finally, Clan mechs break the ideas MWO is founded on. A Clan mech can do both Recon -and- Fire Support, or Command -and- Attack/Defense. Put one Clan mech on a team, and you'll have people wondering why they even bothered to join, since the Clan mech will be doing their job.

No, I don't see Clan tech or Clan mechs as beneficial to this game at all. Just drop in the IS equivilants if you need them, and that should do what is needed.

My own opinion, of course. Take it or not, as you wish.

Engineering, on 05 July 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

Seems like the real solution is both simple elegant and just common sense. Clans vs Clans and IS vs IS are default. Clan vs IS is optional.

Lets be honest. Most players who want clan mechs don't want them so they can fight against equivilent foes they want them to ROLFstomp IS weaklings. If your not that kind of clanner than this option is fine for you. You'll be playing against others with the same equipment and if you do get a game vs IS forces you'll most likely be facing the best IS players who want the challenge rather than rank newbies.

This means everyone gets to be happy except the wannabe ROLFstompers who should never be happy anyways.

Hmmm....this I would agree with wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, we know it won't fly with the 'ROLFstompers', and they'll probably scream until they get them inserted into the regular fighting matches eventually.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 July 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[Fire for Effect]

Jakob Knight, on 05 July 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

One problem with the above is that the Combat Value system was designed for the TT game, and actual simulation warfare is very difficult to rate the same way, since it is not turn-based or as random.

no its based on time a turn has 10 seconds no matter what you use for normalization as long as you use the same method of normalization the results are comparible; skill is unimportant since that is not factored in anyway, that why it is combat potential.

Jakob Knight, on 05 July 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

I'd hesitate to use CV to determine matches in MWO, especially since they are tweeking the performance of weapons systems (regular lasers now having a variable damage due to DoT, ect).

well I would not since it is way better than simple tonnage or number Mechs versus number minus die roll

Jakob Knight, on 05 July 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Also, alot of people reading the Forums probably don't have experience in CV and wouldn't have a basis for understanding how the numbers compare or are calculated. They probably will look at the numbers at the end and say "they are both near 45,000...must be fair enough".

well they do not need understanding that since the calculation would be done by the server... using a sword is much easier than understanding its potential and manufacturing process....

*fixed typo*

Edited by Fire for Effect, 05 July 2012 - 08:29 AM.

[HiredGun]

I don't see a problem with having free rain on clan equipment, just at a higher price (as it is better anyways). If it available to everyone equally and just cost more, no biggie. Does it really matter if everyone is switching out their IS weapons for clan weapons? As long as everyone is on the same playing field, then it does not matter. This would also be a way to level up your mech, by upgrading your components when you have the cash.

If all IS mech are sporting clan weapons, then the divide between IS and Clan mech is less significant. At this point, if the clan mechs are significantly more expensive, then less people will be likely to buy them, as the c-bill/ton value would not be as good as a IS mech with clan weapons.Over time as they become more common, then the price could come down to a much more reasonable level.

[Engineering]

Problem with making Clan equipment available to everyone is that it makes Clan equipment mandatory. Why is this bad? Well because all of a sudden there are a huge amount of players who enjoy using level 1 tech that are going to be turned off to playing here and MANY of those people are people who have and will continue to support this game financially.

As to making clan equipment more expensive... that would make it P2W. You have to PAY for a premium account to be able to afford to play clan tech and if you can't afford to pay premium (or don't want to) you lose cause level 1 tech is too weak.

The only way to make the system work is to seperate the two levels except by mutual acceptance. Let the clans play the clans let the level 1 guys play level 1. If both want to play each other all the power to them.

When the clanners find that in 12 v 12 games they can't find opponents and games take too long to find then the IS players will complain that the clanners are OPed and the games will become 12 vs 10. Thus making many more IS players willing to join clan vs IS games.

Now having said all that the reality is that the devs have already given us all the info we need to figure out how the clans will work.

The devs seem to have a "ALL mechs are viable" philosophy to this game. The have also stated that clan units would have a numerical disadvantage. Both of these design philosophies seem to point to clan tech only being available to clan units. So TBH it's all a moot point.