53 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Water Bear, on 18 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Ok wait. The only time I see jump jets used in a brawl are when a jumper is so close to his target that they jump high enough to prevent the target from getting torso weapons on the jumper. At those short ranges reticle shake won't prevent you from hitting the guy you're jumping over, it just makes your shots less accurate, which seems OK.

Other than that I can't think of a use for jump jets in a brawl other than tapping to abuse the animation. 99% of the time someone uses their jets at short range, it doesn't make them much more difficult to hit than twhen they were on the gorund.

Pretty well described below, but yeah, using the maneuverability of jump jets in a brawl is one of the best reasons to take JJs, and implies that you can actually aim and shoot at something while using said maneuverability, for at least part of the time. In this case when you are not thrusting.

Krivvan, on 18 June 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

JJs give you turn rate bonuses and allow for you to maintain a vector preserving momentum while still turning. It's much more apparent when you watch a Light mech fight as you need to keep a direction but you also need to prepare for a sudden course change or you hit your torso twist limit.

They're also crucial for taking terrain shortcuts and being able to disengage from fights easier. On other maps like Canyon it means getting into closer range much faster and, like you mentioned, allows you to take advantage of height differences against mechs that are mostly torso-based (like how the Urbanmech is able to be closely matched to a Firestarter even though it has less firepower on paper).

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 June 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Adding to much allowed height will provide even Assault Mechs, with 66+ Alpha strikes with 800m optimal range builds (EXE as example) to pop and tart. Been there. No one liked it then, what has changed since exactly...

[Krivvan]

Almond Brown, on 18 June 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Adding to much allowed height will provide even Assault Mechs, with 66+ Alpha strikes with 800m optimal range builds (EXE as example) to pop and tart. Been there. No one liked it then, what has changed since exactly...

What has changed are quirks and clan mechs. Those same exact poptart builds, if transported to today, would not be the meta. They simply do not have the firepower to make up for the poptart advantage and a direwolf could pick them off easily.

PGI staff have said things (on streams and in-game and stuff, not an announcement) about how they're more afraid of how strong poptarts would be against less skilled players.

Edited by Krivvan, 18 June 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[cSand]

what I really want is to see a DWF-S rocketing over mountain tops

[Gas Guzzler]

Almond Brown, on 18 June 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Adding to much allowed height will provide even Assault Mechs, with 66+ Alpha strikes with 800m optimal range builds (EXE as example) to pop and tart. Been there. No one liked it then, what has changed since exactly...

What 66 pt alpha are you talking about that can be effectively be used in the air? If you say lasers, yeah right. You can do that a couple times before your legs are open...

A little height increase might be nice, but the big thing for the assault JJs is quicker accel

[Water Bear]

Krivvan, on 18 June 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

JJs give you turn rate bonuses and allow for you to maintain a vector preserving momentum while still turning. It's much more apparent when you watch a Light mech fight as you need to keep a direction but you also need to prepare for a sudden course change or you hit your torso twist limit.

They're also crucial for taking terrain shortcuts and being able to disengage from fights easier. On other maps like Canyon it means getting into closer range much faster and, like you mentioned, allows you to take advantage of height differences against mechs that are mostly torso-based (like how the Urbanmech is able to be closely matched to a Firestarter even though it has less firepower on paper).

Pay attention to point blank duels like this one:



Then pay attention to the jump jet gauge throughout it. I am constantly using the jump jets for every little turn, for when I want to prolong my position at a certain height, when I want to move up the hill faster, exploit the lack of torso pitch on Firestarters, and etc. Without the JJs, there's no way my Urbanmech would win any close range fights against SPL Firestarters.

That video is also an example of a case where I put on more than 1 JJ.

If you're saying that this only applies to Light mechs then, well, you're somewhat right. The benefits of JJs on heavier mechs just aren't where they should be.

EDIT: Added video

Bear in mind I'm talking specifically about how jets are used in a brawl, here, not all their applications. Basically what I'm thinking is that ranges are so short during a brawl that reticle shake is more or less irrelevant in deciding whether you hit your target or not, only whether or not you can focus one component.

Gas Guzzler, on 18 June 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Pretty well described below, but yeah, using the maneuverability of jump jets in a brawl is one of the best reasons to take JJs, and implies that you can actually aim and shoot at something while using said maneuverability, for at least part of the time. In this case when you are not thrusting.

I might be starting to repeat myself, but at brawl ranges the reticle shake doesn't seem to be a deal breaker, and would seem to be a fair trade off in exchange for whatever increased mobility you get.

I definitely wait for the reticle shake to stop before firing, but if you had a decreased amount of shake while falling that would suffice to prevent long range sniping while jumping. I have fired during reticle shake at short range in my life, it is possible.

But I see your point, the extra maneuverability is a nice thing to have that I wasn't accounting for.

Double edit: Basically what I'm saying is, you need to make the case to me that, as you said in your first reply, reticle shake during falling somehow destroys the usefulness of jump jets in a brawl. I don't really see that, even given all the examples at hand.

Edited by Water Bear, 18 June 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Reticle shake is a perfectly logical and immersive mechanic. If you think about, even for a second, you are going to realize that once propelled into the air, the only thing keeping the mech orientated for a landing would be stabilizing jets. Otherwise every landing would be ass-over-teakettle. The only way not having reticle shake on the way down makes any iota of sense is if collisions and ragdoll flight physics are implemented.

As soon as someone presents an good idea for balancing non-jump capable mechs against jumping mechs, I’ll reconsider my stance, until then I prefer not to go back to the days when poptarts ruled the skies, and a 15 tons of engine could be replaced with 2 tons of jump jets.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 18 June 2015 - 12:04 PM.

[cSand]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 18 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

Reticle shake is a perfectly logical and immersive mechanic.

so once the jets are done burning, all targeting computers and gyroscope just lose functionality and the mech flails a bunch?

Love ya buddy but that ship, thankfully, will never sail

[Lightfoot]

My idea would be to restore high agility/ mostly height in exchange for a longer recharge. That way you could use jump jets when needed and have them work well, but you couldn't go bunny-hopping across the map as seen in some videos on poptarting.

[Moldur]

Ryokens leap, on 18 June 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Get an independent contractor to do a redesign of the entire game.

fix'd


My suggestion: revert jump jets and make gauss unable to charge or fire while more than 2 jump jets are active and ppc's unable to fire while more than 2 jump jets active. You can be a ****** poptart or you can use jets.

Edited by Moldur, 18 June 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[Water Bear]

cSand, on 18 June 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

so once the jets are done burning, all targeting computers and gyroscope just lose functionality and the mech flails a bunch?

Love ya buddy but that ship, thankfully, will never sail

It makes pretty good sense as a mechanic, fluff aside. Besides, you could make just as fluffy and argument that severe turbulence is realistic.

[1453 R]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 June 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

JUST FIX THE CLASS 1s. Don't distract it with others... the others are really not bad...

Its just the Class 1s that are terrible and extra heavy.

And for the love of god stop suggesting reticle shake on the way down, I don't want that idea in their head. I would literally rather leave all how they are then take away the ability to use JJs effectively in a brawl.

Shake decaying on the way down is an excellent idea, though. In a brawl you should be close enough, and descending shake should be mild enough, to land shots on the target, if not on the precise pixel you need, and it's also an instantaneous fix to jump sniping.

Now. As for my notions on what to do with jump jets...I'm going to post what I assume, having not seen their code, would be a fairly simple numbers-tweak fix, with as little need to code in new behavior as possible. Numbers are easy; we all know Piranha hates having to work new behavior. That said...

1.) Double jump jet acceleration. At least. The word is 'jump', not 'serenely float'. As it stands jump jets are near useless for vertical mobility unless you're riding a ramp with them rather than properly jumping. This needs to change.

2.) Halve (if necessary) or cut by a third (preferable) jump jet fuel. Cutting fuel balances higher acceleration with lower burn times, keeping the overall jump height roughly the same. I would prefer a bit more height to my jets, thus the two-thirds rather than half gauge, but this is negotiable once we have jump jets that jump.

3.) Add an increasing percentage modifier to jump jets, such that the number of jets taken impacts their performance. One jump jet is given a 1x effectiveness modifier, two jump jets are each given a 1.1x effectiveness modifier, so on and so forth. This incentivizes taking greater numbers of jets without unduly penalizing two-jet Heroes or the slobbering horde of players who still, to this day, insist that taking anything more than one jump jet is a waste of space. 'Mechs such as the QKD-4G, which have seven jet slots and pay in weapon hardpoints for the purpose, would end up with seven jump jets which are each 1.7x as effective as a base jump jet, and thus would be able to fly - but that's okay. 7+ jets should indeed allow someone to fly.

4.) Increase heat as necessary during jumps, and implement decaying reticle shake, to prevent easy weapons use during a jump. Jump-brawling should still be possible but it would come at an accuracy penalty, while jump sniping as it existed before would be effectively removed. To jump snipe, or to accurately jump-brawl, one would have to let the jets rest for (likely) half a second or so in order for the crosshair to stabilize, similarly to how M.A.S.C.'s shake doesn't snap off immediately upon deactivating the system. This would require a jumping 'Mech to expose itself long enough for quick counterattack if it wanted to fire from the air, eliminating the primary issue with the Toaster Pastry Days and allowing jump jets to be made much more powerful. Increased heat for their use, as well as less accurate fire while in the air, is as much to balance jumpers against non-jumpers as anything else - jump jets, if fixed, would be an enormously potent utility tool and should come with some equally hefty drawbacks to use if we want jetless 'Mechs to still be worth taking.

This particular general guideline would, hopefully, result in jump jets which are actually fun and interesting to use, as opposed to the current, extremely frustrating HoverJets. Jets have decent height in this game as it stands - we all want more, of course, but it's tolerable with enough jets equipped. What we need, and what we have always needed, is stronger and more consistent acceleration and proper upscaling of effectiveness with increased jet count. We need a reason to take five, six, eight, ten jump jets on 'Mechs that can do so, and we need those jets to be useful for traversing vertical terrain. If I can't jump over a building in River City, why should I take the things at all?

Anyways. Hopefully that's of help. if not...oh well. I tried.

[Gladewolf]

.....Another failed attempt at a physics argument, with another attempt to nerf players that have learned how to fight while airborne. It isn't an "immersive" mechanic. It's a blatant attempt to remove a tactic from players that have taken the time and energy to make it work despite the repeated bad treatment.

[Felio]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 June 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

* Restore JJ height to original max heights before all the nerfing.

They can't really do that, because it wasn't a straight-up nerf they could just reverse. They made performance per JJ linear rather than diminishing, though the first JJ still gives more thrust than the others. You don't get as high as you used to with just a few JJ, but the SDR-5V can actually soar higher now than ever before.

[Thunder Child]

Since we're suggesting stuff, I'd like to see a one second warm-up before jets fire, but give them a linear scale for number of jets carried. Right now, you get huge buffs for one jet, and less effect for the more jets you mount. More jets are still good in some situations, but it should be that one jet should have minimal effect, and maximum jets should have a huge effect.

I also think that mechs should be able to get more height and a lot more forward thrust. In TT (and yes, I know this is NOT TT, but still) a mech could make a 30m forward jump and 10m of height, per jet. So we should have jets that are great for battlefield maneuverability, and less effective for bouncing on the spot.

And the reason for the 1 sec warm-up is to prevent people spamming Jets to bork hit boxes.

Edit: I like that percentage modifier per jumpjet idea.

Edited by Thunder Child, 18 June 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Water Bear, on 18 June 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Bear in mind I'm talking specifically about how jets are used in a brawl, here, not all their applications. Basically what I'm thinking is that ranges are so short during a brawl that reticle shake is more or less irrelevant in deciding whether you hit your target or not, only whether or not you can focus one component.



I might be starting to repeat myself, but at brawl ranges the reticle shake doesn't seem to be a deal breaker, and would seem to be a fair trade off in exchange for whatever increased mobility you get.

I definitely wait for the reticle shake to stop before firing, but if you had a decreased amount of shake while falling that would suffice to prevent long range sniping while jumping. I have fired during reticle shake at short range in my life, it is possible.

But I see your point, the extra maneuverability is a nice thing to have that I wasn't accounting for.

Double edit: Basically what I'm saying is, you need to make the case to me that, as you said in your first reply, reticle shake during falling somehow destroys the usefulness of jump jets in a brawl. I don't really see that, even given all the examples at hand.

Um reticle shake means I can't shoot something 200m away and hit its CT reliably. So yeah, it does somewhat destroy the combat advantage of having jump jets.

I don't see what value reticle shake on the way down adds. Its not like if Highlanders and Executioners can jump as well as other mechs all of a sudden we will see Dragon Slayers dominating the field poptarting again.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 June 2015 - 12:55 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

1453 R, on 18 June 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

...
2.) Halve (if necessary) or cut by a third (preferable) jump jet fuel. Cutting fuel balances higher acceleration with lower burn times, keeping the overall jump height roughly the same. I would prefer a bit more height to my jets, thus the two-thirds rather than half gauge, but this is negotiable once we have jump jets that jump.
....

The burn time should be coupled with the acceleration if it works correctly. You would still able to get to the same places as before but just quicker. Just want to point out

[Targetloc]

http://rustyblog.com/jumpjets/

Hold space. Release.

[Hit the Deck]

Targetloc, on 18 June 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

http://rustyblog.com/jumpjets/

Hold space. Release.

That's more or less how I envision the "reworked" JJs should work! And it's nice to see how you handle the thrust adjustment!

But as I thought about it before, it does require some "downtime" before initiating the jump.

[Targetloc]

Hit the Deck, on 18 June 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

That's more or less how I envision the "reworked" JJs should work! And it's nice to see how you handle the thrust adjustment!

But as I thought about it before, it does require some "downtime" before initiating the jump.

Yeah, you can't shoot for a second while you input your jump, but it's probably a fair trade-off for gaining the ability to rocket yourself backwards 90-150 meters. Very handy for getting you out of bad situations in the board game.

Allow fast rotation with A and D while in flight so you can control where you face when you land and that's pretty much JJ's working as intended. Massive boost on take-off with lots of reticle shake that decays on the way down. Good for positioning and evasion, but +3 to hit penalty (limited jump sniping potential).