53 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Targetloc, on 18 June 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

http://rustyblog.com/jumpjets/

Hold space. Release.

I...

Wow.

While this would be great in a number of games, I'm just not sure it works at all for MWO.

For one, this entails ripping out the current jump jet code completely and starting over from absolutely-nothing scratch, which is a bigger time investment than we're going to get for this project. Second of all...this would make it almost impossible to actually land on top of things. Remember, we're not going to be using a top-down view for plotting actual jumps. if you have to steer a 'land here' reticle with your movement keys, then not only are you removing your ability to control the 'Mech while plotting the jump, but you can't accurately place the jump on anything which is above your current location. Which, to my mind, largely defeats the purpose.

This also makes jump jets a really awkward mid-match minigame you have to perform under fire, rather than being a simple function of the 'Mech. I'm certain some folks would be able to master accurately plotting lateral jumps in mid-firefight, but for the rest of us? Reflexively hitting the jump jet button in the middle of a fight to try and get somewhere would end up with our 'Mech doing some manner of spastic war dance before getting its face blown off because rather than jump, the system engaged the "Please plot your course now" minigame.

I just do not think this is a good fit for a real-time cockpit game. For a 'MechCommander game, or something similar? This would be a great start to a cool jet interface...but when I tell my 'Mech to jump, I do not want it to ask how high first.

[Ted Wayz]

Make them reflect reality. Oh wait, that would make them worse. Unless someone can explain how a reactor generates power that can be converted to vertical thrust.

And be specific, I know a bit about reactors.

[Hit the Deck]

1453 R, on 18 June 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

...Second of all...this would make it almost impossible to actually land on top of things. Remember, we're not going to be using a top-down view for plotting actual jumps. if you have to steer a 'land here' reticle with your movement keys, then not only are you removing your ability to control the 'Mech while plotting the jump, but you can't accurately place the jump on anything which is above your current location. Which, to my mind, largely defeats the purpose.
....

From what I envision is, the game will show your trajectory when you hold the jump button not unlike lobbing grenade in some FPS games.

[InspectorG]

All i know, is my Summoner with 6 tons devoted to JJ, needs to fly through the air all confident and sexy like Elena.



Spider V should be twice as aerial.

I would like:

Moar boost.

Lower end of each weightclass should get more out of their JJ.

Worries about poptart can be met with more JJ cooldown-time and/or heat penalty.

Reticle shake on descent? No thanks.

1-2 JJ should do less than they do now, but not be pointless.

Quirk the finer details, that seems to be PGI's method these days.

[Gas Guzzler]

Isn't it 5 tons for the Summoner? Not 6.

[Targetloc]

1453 R, on 18 June 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

I...

Wow.

While this would be great in a number of games, I'm just not sure it works at all for MWO.

For one, this entails ripping out the current jump jet code completely and starting over from absolutely-nothing scratch, which is a bigger time investment than we're going to get for this project. Second of all...this would make it almost impossible to actually land on top of things. Remember, we're not going to be using a top-down view for plotting actual jumps. if you have to steer a 'land here' reticle with your movement keys, then not only are you removing your ability to control the 'Mech while plotting the jump, but you can't accurately place the jump on anything which is above your current location. Which, to my mind, largely defeats the purpose.

I intended that you still have some vector thrust while in-flight, especially on the way down. The idea being as long as you jumped in the right general direction and height, you can adjust your landing on the way down. Right now, you can hardly jump onto anything. With this you could jump above a building and steer yourself down onto it, or know consistently how high a ridge you can jump up to, instead of ramming into the side of it and praying you ski up it cleanly.

1453 R, on 18 June 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

This also makes jump jets a really awkward mid-match minigame you have to perform under fire, rather than being a simple function of the 'Mech. I'm certain some folks would be able to master accurately plotting lateral jumps in mid-firefight, but for the rest of us? Reflexively hitting the jump jet button in the middle of a fight to try and get somewhere would end up with our 'Mech doing some manner of spastic war dance before getting its face blown off because rather than jump, the system engaged the "Please plot your course now" minigame.

Very good points. You lose the ability to use JJ's as twitch reaction to incoming fire to bounce your hitboxes, or a way to quickly change facing after taking your shot. They would be much harder to use reflexively. Definitely more of a tactical/sim feel than twitch/action.

[Krivvan]

Targetloc, on 18 June 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

http://rustyblog.com/jumpjets/

Hold space. Release.

That kind of mechanic doesn't really belong in a multiplayer shooter imo. Not when you need to do an action quickly.

[Blue Boutique]

I would have every mech able to jump, not high if around 3-6 meters, but the ones with the JJ can use the jump as a boost with decreasing rate of rising.

[InspectorG]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 June 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Isn't it 5 tons for the Summoner? Not 6.

Feels like 10 wasted...

[Choppah]

I don't have all the exact numbers worked out, but here is my JJ reworked:

• Engine size determines max amount (copy values from TT)
  
• 90% of fuel is used by tapping the jump key once (no longer need to hold down to avoid exploiting).
  
• Last 10% is used to feather fall by tapping again. Can be used to increase distance instead of slowing decent.
  
• Crosshair shake during entire flight.
  
• Less than 3 JJ allows horizontal jump only. Approx accent angle of 15 degrees.
  
• 3 or more JJ allows for vertical jump (simplest way to implement would just have the player look up for vertical, down for horizontal). Approx accent angle of 75 degrees.
  
• JJ amount and engine size affects how quickly the fuel recharges. More JJ = slower recharge. Heavier engine = faster recharge.

How it would feel like (Edit, redid example):

A Summoner with 5 JJ is on the ground near the outer wall of HPG. The player looks up (roughly past neutral point/horizon, there will be a indicator on HUD), and taps the JJ key. Summoner immediately rockets a few meters above the wall, reaching its zenith in 2 seconds. Depending on how far away from the ground the mech was, the player will land on top of the wall or on the ground on the opposite side. Either way, the player hits the JJ key again a few meters before landing which zeros out the mech's velocity. Total time in the air is approx 4 to 6 seconds.

After 7 seconds the JJ fuel is recharged (simple formula subject to change: (Engine Size / Amount of JJ) / 10 = Seconds to recharge). Assuming the player decided to land on the wall, the player moves the mech near the edge of the wall and aims slightly down. Player hits the JJ button and rockets across the chasm, tapping the JJ key one more time before coming to a smooth landing on top of the ramp leading to the central platform (satellite column area). Total time in the air is approx 2 to 3 seconds.

How would such powerful JJ be balanced?

• Players can no longer control their ascent, and therefore can no longer choose when to cut power to duck behind cover. If you jump-snipe, you are very exposed.
  
• Mechs have to invest in at least 3 JJ in order to get its main benefit. No longer is 1 JJ worth taking all the time, for every mech that can.
  
• Engine restrictions mean mech builds would have to sacrifice weaponry for JJ/engine tons and slots. Assaults, with tonnage to spare, will still not reign supreme. With 5 JJ they could only muster about 2/3 to 3/4 the distance, depending on tonnage, of the Summoner above.

Edited by Choppah, 18 June 2015 - 10:23 PM.

[pyrocomp]

Gladewolf, on 18 June 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

.....Another failed attempt at a physics argument, with another attempt to nerf players that have learned how to fight while airborne. It isn't an "immersive" mechanic. It's a blatant attempt to remove a tactic from players that have taken the time and energy to make it work despite the repeated bad treatment.

You want to see something like this?

Quote

Mech's a_y_max=(Number_of_JJs * ( JJ_Class * 5 tons + 20 tons) - Mech_mass)/Mech_mass*10 (m/s^2 or 32 ft/s^2)
If directional keys pressed a_y=a_y_max*0.9, a_x=a_y_max*0.1
full_burn_time = (JJ_Class/3+2) secs
Rectile_shake_range = JJ_Class * sqrt(Number_of_JJs) / Mech_mass * Scale_factor
Mass=JJ_Class * 0.5 tons
Trust biuld-up time 0.5-0.9 secs, thrust die time 0.5 secs
Crits and heat and all the numbers scale (plus some overall restrictions on JJs class on specific chassis plus quirks to JJs) to balance according what should jump where in TT (or near it).

Then, I'm afraid, not in this incarnation of this game.

[Joseph Mallan]

5 Meters of height per jet
30 meters of distance per jet

Fixed.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 June 2015 - 05:21 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I would like them to max out jump jets for one day only without telling anyone. Watching spiders launch into space would be fun.

[Gladewolf]

All I want is for players to use their combat skills to beat other player's tactics instead of their lawyer skills and made up physics on these forums, constantly asking for nerfs(how many upright tanks do you see running around??). Jump Jets were fine once they were scaled to number of jets....they were jacked up, BECAUSE of BS arguments over whether or not someone should be able to shoot while airborne.......well guess what, now those players that made that play style infamous are now just beating your tails with other tactics. So we nerf this, that and the other thing too.(seriously, just fill in the blank)