59 replies to this topic

[Biggs McIntosh]

What it comes down to, for me at least, is that they are trying to create an evolving timeline. For that to work, the players need to believe their actions have weight. And for me, if losing a battle outside the simulator doesn't have consequences, then it hurts the immersion for me. I don't think anyone is suggesting enemy mechs be "lootable." As much as you don't want this to me an MMORPG, I don't want this to turn into Team Fortress 2. Throwing random people into teams and telling them to frag the enemy works for FPSs like TF2, Halo, Counterstrike, etc. because they aren't trying to create a world. All of those games have strong communities, or leagues, or what have you, but that all exists outside the game. What I am hoping for is that what I do will have some repercussions in a tangible way withing the game, not on some outside site keeping score.

[feor]

Renegade Mitchell, on 30 November 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

I just do not want this to become some MMORPG. Where you hover over a dead mech and decide within a group need, greed, or pass over some salvage.

No ones suggesting that, anything salvage related would happen at the end of the battle,

But you get questions in battle like "OOooo He has an Annihilator, I always wanted on of those. Do I take the extra time to try and hit his cockpit so that I can salvage the mech, while hoping he doesn't destroy me first since the head's so hard to hit. Or do I just focus on center of mass and try to put him down before he can finish me off?"

[Haeso]

I just wanted to mention again my desire to keep this, for the user, as simple and easy as possible. I'm all for super deep customization and micromanagement, but at it's core the system needs to be accessible. Ex: After match salvage should take no more than a minute if that, custom variants if customization is available should be easily saved and replaced (assuming you have the C-Bills).

[Red Beard]

Chances are more than strong that there will be NO after match salvage. The 2009 IGN interview with Russ and Jordan gives good cause to believe that they have a different plan for how salvage works.

[Red Beard]

Biggs McIntosh, on 30 November 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

What I am hoping for is that what I do will have some repercussions in a tangible way withing the game, not on some outside site keeping score.

While I do not disagree with that premise, I have to say that I think that idea would fail to include a large enough player base to make work on a large scale. I have a feeling that this is why the devs have made the statement that this game will not be an MMO. Just a hunch though.

[Velo]

Haeso, on 30 November 2011 - 01:39 PM, said:

My point is the things you buy like this wouldn't necessarily be things you could lose, though some would. If you wanted to buy a combat advantage, you'd have to effectively buy non-combat items/currency and trade that to another player in exchange for C-Bills which preserves economy. The idea is to allow those that want to buy an advantage a way to do it while also giving the average player something to want, and whether he buys it by trading C-Bills to someone with real money currency or through the shop directly doesn't really matter as far as the game is concerned. As long as money/equipment isn't being magicked into the economy.

Just my two cents here, and btw hi, I'm new here:
buying an item with real money doesn't necessarily have to exclude it from salvage, I mean people without disposable income would be joyed in accidentally picking up something they would otherwise have to pay for. So I propose this, as someone who plans on spending real money, once some luxury item is bought it is "unlocked" and the player receives one unit of this item. if it is lost to salvage, they have to buy it back using game credits and don't have to spend real money to unlock it again. To add to this, such items should not be trade-able (if there is any player market) since then one player who unlocked it could just keep buying it for other players.

Also I like the idea of the salvage trucks, sounds fun. I'm for the winners getting all the salvage which is left at the end, regardless of the number of trucks each team has.

[Haeso]

Velo, on 06 December 2011 - 11:56 AM, said:

Just my two cents here, and btw hi, I'm new here:
buying an item with real money doesn't necessarily have to exclude it from salvage, I mean people without disposable income would be joyed in accidentally picking up something they would otherwise have to pay for. So I propose this, as someone who plans on spending real money, once some luxury item is bought it is "unlocked" and the player receives one unit of this item. if it is lost to salvage, they have to buy it back using game credits and don't have to spend real money to unlock it again. To add to this, such items should not be trade-able (if there is any player market) since then one player who unlocked it could just keep buying it for other players.

Also I like the idea of the salvage trucks, sounds fun. I'm for the winners getting all the salvage which is left at the end, regardless of the number of trucks each team has.

But they would not be overjoyed at the prospect of dying to something they have to pay for. The ability to take the paid exclusive item from this person would soften the blow of it somewhat, but it creates a balance of power dynamic that I'm decidedly against. Many F2P games have proven that simply helping circumvent the grind and aesthetics is all you need to do for people to pay for a game they enjoy. Hell some games have even shown with a good enough game, people will pay for just aesthetics, no grind circumvention or power for sale at all!

[Red Beard]

If the devs decide to have salvage turn into a post match reward,(which I am doubting they will), then, in order to balance things out a bit, it would be only fair that you could destroy piles of salvage. If you know you are going to lose, then running back to the salvage piles in your Jenner to ruin said salvage before you are destroyed would be a positive battlefield tactic.

[Haeso]

Red Beard, on 06 December 2011 - 01:44 PM, said:

If the devs decide to have salvage turn into a post match reward,(which I am doubting they will), then, in order to balance things out a bit, it would be only fair that you could destroy piles of salvage. If you know you are going to lose, then running back to the salvage piles in your Jenner to ruin said salvage before you are destroyed would be a positive battlefield tactic.

I would have no issue with scorched earth being a viable tactic. That's we're about lose 101. Burn what you can't bring with you, don't let them have it.

Edited by Haeso, 06 December 2011 - 01:48 PM.

[Velo]

has the possibility of a used parts market been discussed? what i've got in mind is this:
the salvage trucks are owned by the teams not players and each truck contributes to the teams salvage. for simplicity purposes anything which is salvaged by the trucks is recorded by the game as being in one of a few conditions; lets say fair, functional, and broken. the total salvage value of all these parts is split among team members in the form of C-bills and the parts themselves are sent to an online used parts market accessible by all.

condition for this to be fair:
-the portion each player gets is based on their performance during the match, so sitting back not risking much won't return much salvage value.

complications (and possible solutions)
-if someone were to retreat mid-game, their share would have to split at that moment in time.
-the parts from the match aren't put on the used market until after the match has finished, so players have a chance to buy it back.

[Red Beard]

For my part, I hope there is no used parts or salvage market. That would alter too much of the gameplay of this, so far, exciting sounding video game.

[Matz05]

Ooh, spare parts... salvage... raiding...
...I've got to get a mech with hands...

In all seriousness, I think that the idea of paying people having easier access to something (Rare consumables? The ability to buy weapons not sold in most places?) that exist for other players with greater scarcity is a good idea.

It can be justified as black market contacts and leads to a reward for gunning for them rather than chasing newbies.
If this guy gets LBX AC-20 shells half price, then if I shoot him I might get some nice shotguns/shells for my Atlas...

It also does not get "lost forever" if your mech gets jacked. Yes, you lost the fancy prototype weapon you were using; but your supplier happens to have stolen a whole shipment of them. Scraping up the C-Bills is the only problem...

[Zevious]

MW2: Mercs and all MW titles (Mw3 & Mw4 series) that incorperated the same salvage system thereafter (except Mechcommander 1 & 2) appeared to have no scripting for acutal combat tracking. While Fasa did claim "get a headshot, save the reactor and keep it as salvage" just ended up being a complete let-down.

Other than objective requirments, none of the the systems could say "ok this Jenner had its left leg blown off", "this Javelin took a headshot" and base salvage accordingly. All of the titles that incorperated salvage would just throw out some random salvaged items based on whichever opponents/mech classes where used for that completed scenario.

I am keen to see someone 'take the next step' and incorperate a legitimate salvage system that is actually interactive between the lobby/resource management UI and the actual gameplay combat statistics (Which mech? was it destroyed? if so did it go critical? if not what % of damage allocated to bodyparts? can this part be salavaged? what % of damage allocated to weapons & systems of this part? can this weapon/system be salvaged?) .

So that when that Pirate or Merc next steps onto the MWO battlefield, their fighting with a purpose. The lazy approach to scrpting the salvage allocation in previous MW titles always took quite a chunk of the game immersion away for me.

Edited by Zevious, 07 December 2011 - 04:30 PM.

[Red Beard]

Zevious, on 07 December 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

I am keen to see someone 'take the next step' and incorperate a legitimate salvage system that is actually interactive between the lobby/resource management UI and the actual gameplay combat statistics (Which mech? was it destroyed? if so did it go critical? if not what % of damage allocated to bodyparts? can this part be salavaged? what % of damage allocated to weapons & systems of this part? can this weapon/system be salvaged?)

Way too complex. Dizzyingly complex. Too much time to code and too much for the average player to care about. IMO

Quote

The lazy approach to scrpting the salvage allocation in previous MW titles always took quite a chunk of the game immersion away for me.

Immersion has no value to me. This is just a video game. Just a guess, but more than 90 percent of the gamers that will play this game will not give a hoot about any level of immersion. They just want to play the game.

[Haeso]

Zevious, on 07 December 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

MW2: Mercs and all MW titles (Mw3 & Mw4 series) that incorperated the same salvage system thereafter (except Mechcommander 1 & 2) appeared to have no scripting for acutal combat tracking. While Fasa did claim "get a headshot, save the reactor and keep it as salvage" just ended up being a complete let-down.

Other than objective requirments, none of the the systems could say "ok this Jenner had its left leg blown off", "this Javelin took a headshot" and base salvage accordingly. All of the titles that incorperated salvage would just throw out some random salvaged items based on whichever opponents/mech classes where used for that completed scenario.

I am keen to see someone 'take the next step' and incorperate a legitimate salvage system that is actually interactive between the lobby/resource management UI and the actual gameplay combat statistics (Which mech? was it destroyed? if so did it go critical? if not what % of damage allocated to bodyparts? can this part be salavaged? what % of damage allocated to weapons & systems of this part? can this weapon/system be salvaged?) .

So that when that Pirate or Merc next steps onto the MWO battlefield, their fighting with a purpose. The lazy approach to scrpting the salvage allocation in previous MW titles always took quite a chunk of the game immersion away for me.

I always thought that was such a shame, it's not even that complex to keep track of. Given the nature of the game, the backend for keeping track of things between matches already exists Stat tracking. Make a similar system for tracking damage, the information is already there you just need to carry it over from the end of the match to the salvage screen, not hard at all.

Red Beard, on 07 December 2011 - 05:49 PM, said:

Way too complex. Dizzyingly complex. Too much time to code and too much for the average player to care about. IMO

It wouldn't be complex at all on the user end and it's not complex on the code end either. It wouldn't take long to code at all, please don't speak about things you don't understand. It's very simple, in fact. All it requires is tracking what happens to a 'Mech compared against a table. CT destroyed? No salvage. Arm destroyed? No weapons from that arm salvaged. Leg(s) destroyed? Full salvage. With corresponding repairs.

It wouldn't be any more complex than MW4 was for the user. If you're going to keep posting, try to do it without posting utter nonsense.

Quote

Immersion has no value to me. This is just a video game. Just a guess, but more than 90 percent of the gamers that will play this game will not give a hoot about any level of immersion. They just want to play the game.

You're dead wrong about 90%, do some research, I'm not going to waste my time trying to educate you when you're willing to say things like this that are so blatantly wrong. And once more I'll remind you of the original first paragraph and now second paragraph.

Haeso, on 30 November 2011 - 05:42 AM, said:

Please keep on the topic of how salvage would work, how you'd like it to work, etc. and not on whether or not you think it should be in the game, this: http://mwomercs.com/...c/1846-salvage/ thread serves that purpose.

This thread isn't about whether or not you want salvage.

Edited by Haeso, 08 December 2011 - 07:13 AM.

[Taw Jackson]

Zevious, on 07 December 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

MW2: Mercs and all MW titles (Mw3 & Mw4 series) that incorperated the same salvage system thereafter (except Mechcommander 1 & 2) appeared to have no scripting for acutal combat tracking. While Fasa did claim "get a headshot, save the reactor and keep it as salvage" just ended up being a complete let-down.

Other than objective requirments, none of the the systems could say "ok this Jenner had its left leg blown off", "this Javelin took a headshot" and base salvage accordingly. All of the titles that incorperated salvage would just throw out some random salvaged items based on whichever opponents/mech classes where used for that completed scenario.

I am keen to see someone 'take the next step' and incorperate a legitimate salvage system that is actually interactive between the lobby/resource management UI and the actual gameplay combat statistics (Which mech? was it destroyed? if so did it go critical? if not what % of damage allocated to bodyparts? can this part be salavaged? what % of damage allocated to weapons & systems of this part? can this weapon/system be salvaged?) .

So that when that Pirate or Merc next steps onto the MWO battlefield, their fighting with a purpose. The lazy approach to scrpting the salvage allocation in previous MW titles always took quite a chunk of the game immersion away for me.

While I agree with you that previous titles didn't explore the salvage aspect as thoroughly as it should have been, here there is a golden opportunity to do it right. However that is accomplished..........I'm sure we can beat this dead horse until it's sawdust.

[Fluffinator]

Every 10 lines you must have a picture its the rules...

[Opus]

Red Beard, on 30 November 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

Wait, wait, wait. Chicken and waffles?

MMMMmmmmmmMMMMMmmmmm.....

Chicken And Waffles After Mardi Gras...

[Wyzak]

I was under the impression that MW2 Mercs Titanium Edition and MW3 did have dynamic salvage. I remember salvaging some rare mechs and I assume it was because I achieved a cockpit shot. I doubt we can afford that level of granularity here. I think it's still more likely you will get a bonus for engaging in activities likely to generate salvage (legging mechs, cockpit shots, shooting off limbs) and use that bonus to purchase components/upgrades. If they choose to track what parts of the mech you shoot at beyond game physics.

[slide]

Haeso,

I think this is a well thought out and viable plan and I think the devs should take note.

I also love the idea of the in mission salvage truck, another aspect of that would be that your team could recover your mech take it back to your dropzone and maybe (if the missions are long enough) get it somewhat functional so you can rejoin the fight after an appropriate delay (not respawning). This would add another level to possible tactics on the field, however it shouldn't be too easy. This leads to the question of on field repairs/reloads but that's another thread.

My opinions:

BT without salvage is not BT it's another online shooter with big robots and BFG's

Simulator for practice is a must (I believe devs have already confirmed this in one of the Q&A's)

Big risk (losing a mech) for big rewards in also a must (but we're not going to see it)

Salvage = cbills. Boring you get what you get or can buy from the team at end of mission, if given a specific item you can keep or sell, your choice.

There are definitely 2 sides on the salvage issue. Red Beard both here and on my own thread on this issue, has repeatedly stated that the immersion side of things doesn't interest the "gamers" and there are insufficient "BT fans" to keep it going. I only have this to say "When you get bored of having 100,000,000,000 c-bills in the bank, and have killed every other player twice and move on to the next flashy MP game, it will be the fans who stick around and keep this franchise going, and we want a bit more from our games than c-bills, kill/death ratios and online bragging rights". Nuff said (apologies to Haeso if I've over stepped).