50 replies to this topic

[Bloody]

kargush, on 30 November 2011 - 03:01 PM, said:

"Boats"? You mean like the Awesome?

the Awesome mech is canon and fine by me as is the Hollander or the Longbow etc.

[Kargush]

Haeso, on 30 November 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:

Battle value is combat value, they are the same. If you fail to utilize your 'Mechs BV because it isn't say, a one weapon type boat, that's on you the pilot. If you cannot use a mixed arms 'mech, buy a boat 'Mech. The weapons/equipment are what determine BV effectively, since Chassis themselves using TT's system are essentially legos, just legos with distinct aesthetics.

Clearly you didn't actually read what I said. Pilot skill. Let me repeat that. Pilot. Skill. How does that fit into your BV scheme? Because I can tell you, a Hunchback piloted by someone going "Lulz, CHARGE!" isn't going to earn its value the same way one piloted by a good player is.

And once again, some mechs are just crap for the value (which in the TT game can be driven up by stuff like FF, jump jets and electronics).

Bloody, on 30 November 2011 - 03:31 PM, said:

the Awesome mech is canon and fine by me as is the Hollander or the Longbow etc.

Then why complain about boats?

Oh, non-canon boats? Then why not just say "I dun want no non-canon mechs in mah gaem"?

[Kudzu]

kargush, on 30 November 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

Clearly you didn't actually read what I said. Pilot skill. Let me repeat that. Pilot. Skill. How does that fit into your BV scheme? Because I can tell you, a Hunchback piloted by someone going "Lulz, CHARGE!" isn't going to earn its value the same way one piloted by a good player is.

While we know that we can level up our pilot avatars, we have no idea on what that entails-- so at this point it's all speculation as to how to weigh pilot skill into the values. Possible suggestions include ELO, exp points, K/D ratios, not bothering at all, and so on.

Keep in mind that no system will ever be perfect no matter what we try. Even the best pilots will have off days, and the noobiest noob can have a game where they can't help but hit every shot.

Quote

And once again, some mechs are just crap for the value (which in the TT game can be driven up by stuff like FF, jump jets and electronics).

Which is why no one is saying "directly port in the TT system with no changes at all". However, the idea behind BV is a solid one when it comes to balancing, it will require plenty of changes and adjustments but it can work well.

[Dlardrageth]

The ability to customize your Mech some is actually an integral part of BT. Even if you talk "canon", there had been refit packages produced by the houses themself to upgrade certain Mechs. And many a Mech variant is arguably nothing but customization, just naot made by one individual pilot but on a bigger scale.

Having said that, full customization is somewhat different though. I mean, it would make PGI's life much easier going for that. They'd just have to provide one or two fully customizeable chassis for ecach weight class and everybody could add odules/reactor/weapons at their own whim. No need any more for the diversity of BT mechs. Sure as hell would save them a lot of coding/artwork effort. And you could "customize" the hell out of your Mechs with little regards to specific chassis limitations. Okay, nice and well, but that would have nothing to do with BattleTech/MechWarrior any more. Could as well call the game "Mecha World Online" then.

A bit of an issue with the "full customization" in the poll is how far "full" would really go. I personally would favour a system that does impose some limits, forcing the players to always make some compromise. If it were that easy to get best speed, manoeuverability, firepower and armor on any given chassis, well then let's do away with different chassis, not really any need for those any more. Don't know, sounds kinda boring...

One more thing - what the hell would be the point of OmniMechs at all, if you can do the exactly same thing with your standard chassis already? Do they get an extra fancy paintjob for free or are they completely redundant with full customization options?

[Insidious Johnson]

100% full customization of everything! Just add more "everything" to the mix. Most of the "playstyle" problems mentioned here have been the rightful domain of leagues, clans, and players to decide as part of the terms of the battle usually bid beforehand. Variety keeps the whole game from becoming a one trick pony. The whole cone of fire argument amuses me, it is a diversion. By offering people a choice between two things is to limit the field to those two things. Include multiple options for dealing with that issue (1. Fixed Fire from hardpoints, 2. only laser fire and higher end guided missles are convergent, 3.all individually articulated weapons converge, etc) and let the players of that specific match decide it beforehand. Matches are won and lost before they are fought most of the time. But the ability to arrange terms beforehand removes many foregone conclusions. Of course, I'm talking about all players, not just die hard RP clanners.

That being said, on to the everything. The alpha strike argument is another hot topic. Again, implement multiple solutions that a team leader can pick from a menu to apply to the whole match. The clans bid honor, let the IS bid C-Bills(lol). In effect, that is what they are doing.. with mercenaries, inter house politics, Solaris,etc. Its all about the C-bills.

I have no idea what the the starting mech for new players will be. But it should be the biggest piece of rusted junk ever to disgrace a mech bay. It should have many failures in matches and be something desired to be left behind quickly. Everything possible you can throw Cbills at to make it better or get a better one should be in the game. Every improvement should be markedly noticable. New players get farmed in every game. Every learning curve is its own, exploitation happens. Give the new players the tools they need to succede, they'll motivate themselves to play or not. New players could offset their circumstances by having many options and being able to "bid" terms of combat: where, when, environmental conditions, tech limitations, respawn, mech bay, hidden resources, etc.

In short, demand more from devs and happily allow them to time to NAIL it the first time, since we know anything not nailed down at release will linger and linger.... and linger. Don't fall for any cheesy two option dilemma. Recognise it AS limited logic that is false, there are more than two options. We want everything from which to choose.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Nice troll Johnson

[Darkmoose]

Kudzu, on 30 November 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

While we know that we can level up our pilot avatars, we have no idea on what that entails-- so at this point it's all speculation as to how to weigh pilot skill into the values. Possible suggestions include ELO, exp points, K/D ratios, not bothering at all, and so on.

Keep in mind that no system will ever be perfect no matter what we try. Even the best pilots will have off days, and the noobiest noob can have a game where they can't help but hit every shot.


Which is why no one is saying "directly port in the TT system with no changes at all". However, the idea behind BV is a solid one when it comes to balancing, it will require plenty of changes and adjustments but it can work well.

You will have kills you will have been killed, you will have dealt damage and you will have taken damage, turn that into a mathematical equation and poof Pilot skills. As your ratio of damage dealt vs damage taken goes up you get a higher rating or modifier, against whatever combat value system they decide to use.

[Darkmoose]

Dlardrageth, on 30 November 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

The ability to customize your Mech some is actually an integral part of BT. Even if you talk "canon", there had been refit packages produced by the houses themself to upgrade certain Mechs. And many a Mech variant is arguably nothing but customization, just naot made by one individual pilot but on a bigger scale.

Having said that, full customization is somewhat different though. I mean, it would make PGI's life much easier going for that. They'd just have to provide one or two fully customizeable chassis for ecach weight class and everybody could add odules/reactor/weapons at their own whim. No need any more for the diversity of BT mechs. Sure as hell would save them a lot of coding/artwork effort. And you could "customize" the hell out of your Mechs with little regards to specific chassis limitations. Okay, nice and well, but that would have nothing to do with BattleTech/MechWarrior any more. Could as well call the game "Mecha World Online" then.

A bit of an issue with the "full customization" in the poll is how far "full" would really go. I personally would favour a system that does impose some limits, forcing the players to always make some compromise. If it were that easy to get best speed, manoeuverability, firepower and armor on any given chassis, well then let's do away with different chassis, not really any need for those any more. Don't know, sounds kinda boring...

One more thing - what the hell would be the point of OmniMechs at all, if you can do the exactly same thing with your standard chassis already? Do they get an extra fancy paintjob for free or are they completely redundant with full customization options?

Inner Sphere mech would take longer to customize, say it take 4 hours to change a weapon on an IS Mech it would take 2 hours for an Clan Ominimech.

[Agasutin]

Haeso, on 30 November 2011 - 08:41 AM, said:

Balance shouldn't be done with making everything equal arbitrarily. It should come from it's BV amount and it's C-Bill pricetag, complete with an economy of risk/reward. Imo.

Full Custom + Battle Value...

End Transmission...

[Datum]

I say allow full weapons customization, but keep the drawbacks similar to the TT game, so if you swap out weapons ***** nilly it would be detrimental. Say you put the Hunchback's autocannon on the arm, it should unbalance the thing, as its arm actuators are not made to support a gun like that, and it would be harder to maneuver and be more susceptible to recoil, etc.

Darkmoose, on 01 December 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

Inner Sphere mech would take longer to customize, say it take 4 hours to change a weapon on an IS Mech it would take 2 hours for an Clan Ominimech.

Also, you can refit Omnimechs without risk of ******** it up. Standard mech refits run a risk of penalty to accuracy and mech stability as well as cost more.

Edited by Datum, 01 December 2011 - 01:25 PM.

[UncleKulikov]

Somewhere between option 2 and 3.