104 replies to this topic

[AEgg]

Dirk Le Daring, on 20 June 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

Not a bad idea 50/25, and remember there is the LFG function now.

Yeah, but nobody ever uses it.

It's really difficult to try to build community in a game with matchmaking. Before matchmaking, people would typically stick to one or two servers, and thus get to know the people/communities they played with, and move to more organized play from there.

With matchmaking, you never see the same player twice (or rarely do), and nobody really wants to just go "group up" with randoms. You're still a group of randoms at that point so why bother grouping at all? The only thing it's accomplishing is throwing you against the pool of groups that are already organized.

[Dirk Le Daring]

AEgg, on 20 June 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Yeah, but nobody ever uses it.

It would be a good way to let the function be known to all players though.

AEgg, on 20 June 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

With matchmaking, you never see the same player twice (or rarely do), and nobody really wants to just go "group up" with randoms. You're still a group of randoms at that point so why bother grouping at all? The only thing it's accomplishing is throwing you against the pool of groups that are already organized.

I often see the same people in the solo queue, fail to see how groups would be different. In fact in the group queue when I have been there we have seen the same team at least twice in the session.(not CW queue's)

Besides, you gotta start somewhere. Just like VOIP, (where people said it would never be used, and it is used) the LFG function will become known, and used more often.

Edited by Dirk Le Daring, 20 June 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Quaamik]

A few suggestions here are good, some are not. But since everyone has an opinion, here is mine:

- Lock CW out until the new player has reached 30 games AND 1500 game points (30 games x 50 points / game).
-----This ensures the new player at least knows how to move, fire, control weapons.

- Make the CW maps accessible in the other three game modes (modify them as needed and put them in the rotation).
-----This, coupled with the first one gives the new player a chance to fight on these maps and see the terrain,

- Institute an ELO based multiplier in CW.
----Compare the average ELO of the opposing team to the player:
----------- if its greater than 1.5x then give the player a 50% (1.5x) bonus on match earnings.
----------- if its greater than 2x then give the player a 100% (2x) bonus on match earnings.
----------- if its greater than 3x, then give the player a 200% (3x) bonus on match earnings.

The last rewards low ELO players when the match maker screws up.

[ccrider]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Technically it would help, but CW comes with a much higher skill floor to begin with. So it's better they learn to pilot a mech, and build a mech in the public queue. The only skills that exist in CW, and don't really get learned as well in CW are teamwork skills, and if you use the group queue, you can train those effectively. Getting a pilot that doesn't know how to set up weapon groups yet into CW is bad, on every account.

Not to mention that at least in the public queue there's Elo matching that helps lessen the blow of running into better mechs. You're also more likely to run into mechs that aren't optimized out the wazoo in the public queue. People will run non-meta builds, people will run derp builds, and will even run troll builds in the public queue. In CW, none of that should happen.

So you teach the new players in the public queue, because it's like being at the gym, you can spar, you can train, and you can try anything crazy you want. You don't get a rookie and toss them into the olympics, when don't even know the basic stance yet.

You also don't train new pilots in the middle of a very competitive battlefield. Even though the planets are technically inconsequential, your teammates will still be very pissed off if they lose, because they had 3 or 4 pilots on the team that needed to be hand held, needed to be told how to disable 3PV, how to chain fire, and what torso twisting is.

So in short: No, it wouldn't be better to train them in CW itself.

The public queue is where people go with their training wheels, and where they practice new things. CW is where they go to compete, and see how much they've improved.

I'll give you a real life example that works with this situation:

Should a white belt, who had just joined the dojo be put in a duel against black belt? NO!

The guy doesn't even know the rules yet, let alone how to kick and punch.

You don't train the white belt by tossing him at the black belts every day, unless you're training him in how to get his @ss kicked. No, you show him how the moves are done. You let him train by himself, maybe against a training dummy, and once the white belt passes the tests required of them, they can move up in rank, rinse repeat, until they are a black belt and can compete against other black belts.

So what we need is:

1- Tutorials

2- Entry restrictions for CW (at least 100 matches, all 4 mechs with full basics at least)

3- More recorded matches of CW for new players to see.

4- a Mentor mode, where I can help teach a new player how to do things, without needing to sink premium time, and costing them their 1 day of premium time.

Not to mention your suggestion of Elo dropping in CW randomizes which planets we're hitting, and invalidates any choice the players have of what they want to fight for. We're restricted enough as is in CW. Now I'm gonna wonder if I'm dropping on a defense mission for the FRR, when I want to hit Marik, or that we'll lose a planet because we have only low Elo pilots defending a Davion world?

Randomization in a competitive environment is NEVER good. Especially when it comes to player choice.

I think part of the problem is that people expect CW to overtake the public queue. It never will, and it never should. If we end up with more people playing in the competitive queue than in the public queue then something has gone horribly, HORRIBLY wrong.

I like everything you said, except the match restriction before entering CW part. I've played with (and subsequently recruited to my unit) a few guys who were running 2-3 trials in CW. But, and here's the BIG but, they jumped on TS when we asked them too and played with the group. They weren't able to put up gaudy numbers, but both guys broke 1000 dmg. The only thing holding people back from enjoying CW is this stubborn idea that it HAS TO BE SOLO FRIENDLY. It's not, it probably shouldn't be(at least in the ways that have been presented) and probably never will be. What really needs to change is this overwhelming need to be anti-social. You don't need to join a unit or even talk on TS. Just mute your mic and listen to what's said. How many people have lost entire waves because you say "go heavy" or "go light" and fully a fourth of the team goes against the grain and now you can't light rush to leg targets, you can't grind with assaults to try and wipe them out through attrition, your a mixed bag of 'mech classes that don't work well together against a coordinated group. Just listening to the group will help you win almost half your matches and that is what most people should be hoping for; sure, some of the top units will win 90%+ matches, but a PUG group that doesn't train together isn't gonna get that high. But 50/50 is both achievable and a solid win % and that's what communication will net you after you get used to CW, the style of play and the maps and win conditions. But the only way to get used to CW is to actually play CW. Match restrictions would hurt this.

Edited by ccrider, 20 June 2015 - 08:06 PM.

[Bill Lumbar]

Simbacca, on 19 June 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

For this Summer Heat Event (which I liked the free stuff), it is undeniable that the InnerSphere teams I played on were constantly loosing (only 1 win out of all the drops) due to:
=Trial Mechs
=Really Green Mechwarriors

I suggestion that a player needs 150 drops in solo or group queue before being permitted into CW. That way they have experience especially against Clan mechs, and hopefully have a decent drop deck of fully elited (or mastered) mechs.

Hopefully this will balance the teams better or the very least stop the unending slaughter.

I hate to break it to you, but 150 matches just wouldn't get most if not anyone a fully mastered drop deck needed for CW.... IMO. I had 4000+ matches in this game and around a year and a half invested into this game, and still didn't have all my modules for my drop deck. Several months ago I just got the main ones knocked out, 4 seismic and 4 radar derp. I am still short some weapons modules I want, not many but a few to cover all the mechs I like to play. Its a very long and hard road given the snails pace progression we have all endured in this game. Seems like this is the way PGI wants it, so we get it.

[IraqiWalker]

ccrider, on 20 June 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

I like everything you said, except the match restriction before entering CW part. I've played with (and subsequently recruited to my unit) a few guys who were running 2-3 trials in CW. But, and here's the BIG but, they jumped on TS when we asked them too and played with the group. They weren't able to put up gaudy numbers, but both guys broke 1000 dmg. The only thing holding people back from enjoying CW is this stubborn idea that it HAS TO BE SOLO FRIENDLY. It's not, it probably shouldn't be(at least in the ways that have been presented) and probably never will be. What really needs to change is this overwhelming need to be anti-social. You don't need to join a unit or even talk on TS. Just mute your mic and listen to what's said. How many people have lost entire waves because you say "go heavy" or "go light" and fully a fourth of the team goes against the grain and now you can't light rush to leg targets, you can't grind with assaults to try and wipe them out through attrition, your a mixed bag of 'mech classes that don't work well together against a coordinated group. Just listening to the group will help you win almost half your matches and that is what most people should be hoping for; sure, some of the top units will win 90%+ matches, but a PUG group that doesn't train together isn't gonna get that high. But 50/50 is both achievable and a solid win % and that's what communication will net you after you get used to CW, the style of play and the maps and win conditions. But the only way to get used to CW is to actually play CW. Match restrictions would hurt this.

I agree with everything you said 100%. I do have one comment though: Those few players you mentioned that were running trials, and showed up on TS, if we had the restriction, they'd still show up on TS when they had the chance to do CW. Because as you hinted in your post, they're not focused on being anti-social, or not working with the team. The restriction could have been 300 matches, and they still would have showed up on TS when it was time for them to play CW.

Bill Lumbar, on 20 June 2015 - 08:14 PM, said:

I hate to break it to you, but 150 matches just wouldn't get most if not anyone a fully mastered drop deck needed for CW.... IMO. I had 4000+ matches in this game and around a year and a half invested into this game, and still didn't have all my modules for my drop deck. Several months ago I just got the main ones knocked out, 4 seismic and 4 radar derp. I am still short some weapons modules I want, not many but a few to cover all the mechs I like to play. Its a very long and hard road given the snails pace progression we have all endured in this game. Seems like this is the way PGI wants it, so we get it.

That's a completely mastered deck, it's not what we're talking about. Getting full elites on 4 mechs is doable within 150 drops. No one has mentioned that they must have modules. I have no seismics yet, and only ONE radar Dep module, plus some weapon modules, but I would still qualify to drop, because my mechs have double basics, which are the single biggest improvement you can do to your mech. Plus, there's enough ECM in CW to compensate for lack of radar dep.

EDIT: We even talked about lowering the restriction to at least full basics on the four mechs in the deck.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 20 June 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Nightshade24]

I know the feels, I can't remember the last time I won a match in CW; I think it was back in the tukayiid event. I only ever crawl back to CW for hte events and I already got 20/20/20/2/0 + 32 cool offs from the summer heat event. So I do not have much reason to force myself to play CW.

Wait times, near 100% loose times only to face off entire teams of stalkers or firestarters or (recently thanks to hero event) spammed duel gauss jagers and huginns...

Those huginns scare me @-@

[Bill Lumbar]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

I agree with everything you said 100%. I do have one comment though: Those few players you mentioned that were running trials, and showed up on TS, if we had the restriction, they'd still show up on TS when they had the chance to do CW. Because as you hinted in your post, they're not focused on being anti-social, or not working with the team. The restriction could have been 300 matches, and they still would have showed up on TS when it was time for them to play CW.



That's a completely mastered deck, it's not what we're talking about. Getting full elites on 4 mechs is doable within 150 drops. No one has mentioned that they must have modules. I have no seismics yet, and only ONE radar Dep module, plus some weapon modules, but I would still qualify to drop, because my mechs have double basics, which are the single biggest improvement you can do to your mech. Plus, there's enough ECM in CW to compensate for lack of radar dep.

EDIT: We even talked about lowering the restriction to at least full basics on the four mechs in the deck.

I agree, just getting to elites is doable, however, many just don't do it because of the "Grind" we have. I have always tried to buy enough to master out my mechs, and I make sure I do. It is a painful process at times, and many don't do it even to get the X2 elite bonus. It does make all the difference in the world, but many just do not do it because it is just to much for them to do.

On some mechs having the extra slot is a very big advantage, when you pick up derp and seismic.... knowing which way a enemy mech is coming when in a brawl on a city map gives you a very nice edge in this game. I completely agree that modules are not required, but another part of me that has played 5000+ matches says that they are.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 20 June 2015 - 08:24 PM.

[ccrider]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

I agree with everything you said 100%. I do have one comment though: Those few players you mentioned that were running trials, and showed up on TS, if we had the restriction, they'd still show up on TS when they had the chance to do CW. Because as you hinted in your post, they're not focused on being anti-social, or not working with the team. The restriction could have been 300 matches, and they still would have showed up on TS when it was time for them to play CW.



That's a completely mastered deck, it's not what we're talking about. Getting full elites on 4 mechs is doable within 150 drops. No one has mentioned that they must have modules. I have no seismics yet, and only ONE radar Dep module, plus some weapon modules, but I would still qualify to drop, because my mechs have double basics, which are the single biggest improvement you can do to your mech. Plus, there's enough ECM in CW to compensate for lack of radar dep.

EDIT: We even talked about lowering the restriction to at least full basics on the four mechs in the deck.

That's probably true, but I think the best way to learn to play CW is to jump into the deep end and go for it. Everyone in my unit started out totally terrible in CW, bar like 2 of them. We got ROFL stomped regularly, but we kept seeking out the tougher opponents(notably TCAF) and got better. I don't think you can get better in CW without testing yourself against the best opponents. If you go in with the attitude you want to get better, you will. If you get discouraged by losses (and you'll have losses at first) then no amount of restrictions will change the fact you aren't getting better.

[ccrider]

Nightshade24, on 20 June 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

I know the feels, I can't remember the last time I won a match in CW; I think it was back in the tukayiid event. I only ever crawl back to CW for hte events and I already got 20/20/20/2/0 + 32 cool offs from the summer heat event. So I do not have much reason to force myself to play CW.

Wait times, near 100% loose times only to face off entire teams of stalkers or firestarters or (recently thanks to hero event) spammed duel gauss jagers and huginns...

Those huginns scare me @-@

Give CW a chance, jump on TS and build up a friends list. It's freakin' fun when you do, trust me. And not all of us run meta decks; I run Zeus 9s, Zeus 6s, BJ 1x and Pnt 10k or the two Zeus', ENF 5d and an Urbie. Urbie is OP though, probably gonna get nerfed.

[Nightshade24]

ccrider, on 20 June 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

Give CW a chance, jump on TS and build up a friends list. It's freakin' fun when you do, trust me. And not all of us run meta decks; I run Zeus 9s, Zeus 6s, BJ 1x and Pnt 10k or the two Zeus', ENF 5d and an Urbie. Urbie is OP though, probably gonna get nerfed.

I did quite a few times.

I got my whole unit together: it was still a clobber (we can't get more then 6 people in our group and I am not going to name and shame but some of us run really... questionable builds...)

Ran with CWI, they insisted it's near-impossible to win in a game of trades if you are an attacker, they forced me to modifify my Ice ferret (my beautiful LRM ferret...) into a Medium pulse + 3 SRM 4 generator hunter ferret which I hated...
I now win my matches but it's after 2-3 zerg-ferret rushes to the generators and even with premium time and the ice ferret prime and stuff giving me more c-bills the games still take longer and give less rewards then a lost for a normal public match on assault (excluding contract rewards).

It wasn't fun and it dropped my moral quite a bit more because i know the IS only need 1 wave of firestarters and a few ecm spiders to do what takes us 3 waves of ice ferrets to do.


So I ceased dropping with CWI, I dropped with SWOL a bit, manage to get 12 man teams, but things kinda crashed after the timberwolf and stormcrow nerfs, They were not a meta group or anything, but being forced into mechs with immense beam durrations or using mechs who use FF instead of ES or doesn't have either ES or FF really removes the whole "OP" weapon lightness and savings.. I stopped playing with them when they played CW less often and more in there timezone then mine...


Then I played with 228's a little bit... this is on the meta-skill end of the spectrum and they ROLF-stomp everything in there way reguardless of faction or game mode, however that's the problem. Everything dies before I can even torso turn to look at it. I need to rush right in like an idiot and fire at everything because if I give 1 second hesitation half the enemy wave is already dead.

It wasn't that fun per say but it's nice to get rewards over 1000 damage, however I feel very alienated being the only guy with 150 damage between 4 mechs with like 20+ kill assists.


I practically vowed that I will not play CW (at least a lot) until the clans recieve the buffs that I seek; ranging from increasing the pinpoint and decreasing (or removing) the splash damage of C ER PPC's... better quirks. (the adder, warhawk, summoner, and gargoyle are all T5 mechs on the spectrum of competitiveness... if there was one, half of them are Tier 6... meanwhile they get the same quirks the IS T1 mechs get...)

Because everytime I play CW, I feel like a second class citizen, lacking heroes, champions, quirks, etc...

Reminded how a panther can out do ER PPC's or ER large lasers over an Adder, or how an awesome can out fight my warhawk and has higher range...

Reminded how a Dragon has the same firepower as a 100 ton mech or the Battlemaster 2C have more armour then a direwolf or atlas...

These reminders do not go well for me. I'm not a clan fanboy or anything, I play IS and Clan mechs quite often. However It doesn't make me feel that they are ballanced to the slightest.

I play clans and I feel like a second class citizen, I play IS and I have to avoid half the chassis to avoid feeling dirty with mini gun-nuke launchers for crutches. That or I already mastered all the IS mechs and have all these clans hovering at basics and half way through elites.



To top it all off; the Recent CW changes of the generator locations, armour, and dropships lethality ruined anything to even the games I considered good.

The cases for the generator now makes some weapons 100% impossible to hit such as LRM's, which is hard to do already. LRM's were kind of good for this stuff in games like MW2 ,3, and 4... or MC2... or TT.

The cases was a very hard blow for me. I would understand putting them somewhere more harder to hit. But not in a fashion that is basicly a turky shoot for the deffenders. the Generator that's near the front on boreal vault was nicely concealed...
at least it was awhile ago.

On top of that you got the stupidly awkward dropships with 12 er large lasers with 25% quirks on them snipping your cockpits and centre torsoes as they come down... sometimes i am not even near the enemy spawn or even the generators, I am past the gates and they shoot me as they come in or out.

What annoys me the most about this is the fact that they nerfed the fire power originally from the STOCK weapons for the dropship because the stock had to much firepower. 2 x PPC, 3 x LRM 20, 7 x Medium laser, 5 x Large laser.

It's a mixed range build that would hurt things up close and make people be vary at far, and has 3 LRM 20's providing a spread-damage weapon that would not be to obnoxious.

Instead we got 12 large lasers or er large lasers with 25% quirks for 2 different aspects that's just 100% chance of hitting CT...





The problems kept pilling up.

I loved CW on the first week of it being launched, played it nearly exclusively and can't even remember the game without it because of how fun it was, I had high hopes for the ability to shoot down aerospace fighters, have convoy missions or missions to destroy entire factories and facilities and stuff with AI tanks, aerospace fighters, helicopters roaming about and things like Artillery strike came from ai Long tom launchers which could be destroyed by the enemy and disable your arty...

Instead we got a deffend/ attack game mode which is now modern day assault all over again. the only way to actually capture the base / destroy the generators. is to get your whole team there, and the whole enemy team missing. Which can be achieved via spawn camping/ camping areas near the spawn. Or being in a 100% premade team up against 100% pugs who didn't defend well.

Either way. CW left a rather sour taste in my mouth which affects my normal public match experience. If it wasn't for clan wave III and the fact they are quirk-less, i may have struggled to get more then 5 matches a day...

[ccrider]

I can see how that might be frustrating, but I am kind of in the same boat. We have a unit of 27, at max we've had 7 guys online and in a group at one time. But my friends list is now at 700+ and even removing non-Davions, it's over 400. So I never have to run with just one group, it's almost always a cool mix of different units, playing styles and 'mech builds. No one is told what to run or how to build, we keep it to weight classes, not specific 'mechs. I played with 228 when they spent a week in Davion and they are a great unit, but we ran 8 perma Davs and 4 228 members so I think my experience differs from yours in that respect. I guess what I'd say is add a bunch more friends, run whatever builds you can both enjoy and be competitive in and then roll CW because shooting the **** on TS while blowing up stompy robots is just awesome. And getting 4 'mechs per battle just makes for MOAR awesome.

Edited by ccrider, 20 June 2015 - 09:04 PM.

[Tywren]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

Technically it would help, but CW comes with a much higher skill floor to begin with. So it's better they learn to pilot a mech, and build a mech in the public queue. The only skills that exist in CW, and don't really get learned as well in CW are teamwork skills, and if you use the group queue, you can train those effectively. Getting a pilot that doesn't know how to set up weapon groups yet into CW is bad, on every account.

Not to mention that at least in the public queue there's Elo matching that helps lessen the blow of running into better mechs. You're also more likely to run into mechs that aren't optimized out the wazoo in the public queue. People will run non-meta builds, people will run derp builds, and will even run troll builds in the public queue. In CW, none of that should happen.

So you teach the new players in the public queue, because it's like being at the gym, you can spar, you can train, and you can try anything crazy you want. You don't get a rookie and toss them into the olympics, when don't even know the basic stance yet.

You also don't train new pilots in the middle of a very competitive battlefield. Even though the planets are technically inconsequential, your teammates will still be very pissed off if they lose, because they had 3 or 4 pilots on the team that needed to be hand held, needed to be told how to disable 3PV, how to chain fire, and what torso twisting is.

So in short: No, it wouldn't be better to train them in CW itself.

The public queue is where people go with their training wheels, and where they practice new things. CW is where they go to compete, and see how much they've improved.

I'll give you a real life example that works with this situation:

Should a white belt, who had just joined the dojo be put in a duel against black belt? NO!

The guy doesn't even know the rules yet, let alone how to kick and punch.

You don't train the white belt by tossing him at the black belts every day, unless you're training him in how to get his @ss kicked. No, you show him how the moves are done. You let him train by himself, maybe against a training dummy, and once the white belt passes the tests required of them, they can move up in rank, rinse repeat, until they are a black belt and can compete against other black belts.

So what we need is:

1- Tutorials

2- Entry restrictions for CW (at least 100 matches, all 4 mechs with full basics at least)

3- More recorded matches of CW for new players to see.

4- a Mentor mode, where I can help teach a new player how to do things, without needing to sink premium time, and costing them their 1 day of premium time.

Not to mention your suggestion of Elo dropping in CW randomizes which planets we're hitting, and invalidates any choice the players have of what they want to fight for. We're restricted enough as is in CW. Now I'm gonna wonder if I'm dropping on a defense mission for the FRR, when I want to hit Marik, or that we'll lose a planet because we have only low Elo pilots defending a Davion world?

Randomization in a competitive environment is NEVER good. Especially when it comes to player choice.

I think part of the problem is that people expect CW to overtake the public queue. It never will, and it never should. If we end up with more people playing in the competitive queue than in the public queue then something has gone horribly, HORRIBLY wrong.

I can 100% agree with 1, 3, and 4; 2 has problems, though. First of which is, you can easily spend your C-Bills on junk mechs, derp your way though 100 matches with just LRM spam, and have no preparedness for CW. So the gate doesn't even work, bad players will still get in, and have to taught how to play CW. Secondly this will drastically skew the number of players toward the IS factions, because of the price difference in Clan mechs vs. IS. You can literally buy, and equip 4 IS meta mechs for less than the 40,000,000+ it would cost just to get the 4 Ice Ferrets needed to meet the minimum tonnage limit to drop clan side. This means only the most experienced players will be in the clans, and will redouble the perception that "Clan mechs are OP" when it's not really the mech at all, but the skill level of the pilot.

Also, i didn't say anything about randomized planet drops. In the system i'm thinking of, you start off only being able to attack/defend the low value planets, and as you gain rank more planets open up. If higher ranked, veteran players see that one of their factions low value worlds are about to be overrun, they can drop in, and even things out. They just won't get much, if anything in the way of rewards for doing so, whereas the lowbes on the other side will get a reward boost for facing off against better players, that way it's worth it for them even when they get stomped. Of course this would require a working CW economy, with some kind of R&R system, a use for faction coffers, planets that have an actual value, ect.

Side note about your martial arts example. I work with a guy form the Philippine; when he started out his training, the instructor put a knife in his hand, pointed to his best student, and told him "If you can cut him, i'll teach you". His instructions to the other guy where even simpler; "Don't kill him". It was the the blackbelt, not the instructer that taught him his first stances, how to move, and how to properly hold the knife.

[ice trey]

How about no more events that require going for CW or Public drops specifically?

This way, CW doesn't get overloaded with random pugs derping the way to let the clans score embarassingly one-sided victories, and it doesn't get turned into a ghost town (Any more than it already is) when players are drawn away to get a mech bay by grinding the public cue.

No valuable, functional rewards that require one or the other. (IE, you can't get a mech bay for both Public cue matches AND CW matches as seperate sets, but rather, there is only one "Mech bay" that can be unlocked, and you can do it by playing whatever kind of match.)

[IraqiWalker]

Tywren, on 20 June 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

I can 100% agree with 1, 3, and 4; 2 has problems, though. First of which is, you can easily spend your C-Bills on junk mechs, derp your way though 100 matches with just LRM spam, and have no preparedness for CW. So the gate doesn't even work, bad players will still get in, and have to taught how to play CW. Secondly this will drastically skew the number of players toward the IS factions, because of the price difference in Clan mechs vs. IS. You can literally buy, and equip 4 IS meta mechs for less than the 40,000,000+ it would cost just to get the 4 Ice Ferrets needed to meet the minimum tonnage limit to drop clan side. This means only the most experienced players will be in the clans, and will redouble the perception that "Clan mechs are OP" when it's not really the mech at all, but the skill level of the pilot.

While I can agree with most of this, I will have to point something out. Almost all IS mechs cost as much if not more than their clan counterparts. In fact, in the lights, and mediums section, the price swings against the IS. For example, an IS Spider costs over 9 Million C-Bills to outfit, while a clan light will set you back 7-8 at best. Heavies, and assaults are where the prices are actually close, and could go one side or the other. For example, a King Crab kitted for long range will cost about 20 million C-Bills, same amount you'll pay for a long range DWF.

IS has a lower ENTRY price, but all the upgrades needed really bring the prices up. So I can see the concern there, but as far as prices go, they're not as far apart as people think.


Now, as for bad players getting in, the gate is more about creating the perception that this is not a mode you should enter quickly, and so they would expect things to be difficult. Rather than what we have now, where hordes of new players show up, thinking it's like the public queue. Get annihilated, and be turned off from the game. If you put some kind of restriction, people understand why things happen.

In League of Legends, you have to be rank 30 before you can participate in ranked matches, and you need at least 15 champions in your pool. What you have in the pool doesn't matter. You are playing the same game, there aren't even any different maps for ranked play compared to solo play. Yet we have this understanding: This is competitive. I need to up my game. I can't walk in with a champion that I just bought, and use it in there.

Right now, we don't even have that perception, people sign up, and they see that faction button, and click it. That's a problem. That perception can help a lot.

Tywren, on 20 June 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

Also, i didn't say anything about randomized planet drops. In the system i'm thinking of, you start off only being able to attack/defend the low value planets, and as you gain rank more planets open up. If higher ranked, veteran players see that one of their factions low value worlds are about to be overrun, they can drop in, and even things out. They just won't get much, if anything in the way of rewards for doing so, whereas the lowbes on the other side will get a reward boost for facing off against better players, that way it's worth it for them even when they get stomped. Of course this would require a working CW economy, with some kind of R&R system, a use for faction coffers, planets that have an actual value, ect.

Ok. That makes more sense than what your earlier post seemed to me.

Tywren, on 20 June 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

Side note about your martial arts example. I work with a guy form the Philippine; when he started out his training, the instructor put a knife in his hand, pointed to his best student, and told him "If you can cut him, i'll teach you". His instructions to the other guy where even simpler; "Don't kill him". It was the the blackbelt, not the instructer that taught him his first stances, how to move, and how to properly hold the knife.

and my Judo instructor damn near dislocated my shoulder on day 1, what I learned from it is that he has a mean right kick, I can think on my feet in a fight, and he's really grabby. I didn't learn how to actually practice Judo until AFTER that fight. Same with the guy in your example. He got training from someone, AFTER the beatdown. That first trial was to see what he's got.

It also is used to weed out those that don't have the commitment. However, considering you walked up to that instructor, and asked him to teach you, you already showed you have SOME commitment to be trained. What we have in CW is that first @ss kicking. Except people don't have the commitment to stay and improve. They're going "Oh hey, what's that yellow button?" *after a long queue wait* "ZOOM, PEW PEW, DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA" They're dead in 10 seconds, 4 times, no idea what's going on, they decide "to hell with it, this game is stupid", and either quit CW, or MW:O altogether.

I want people to actually get a grasp of the game, and understand it's almost vertical learning "curve", before they are plunged into an even more difficult situation.

One of the things I've noticed in my own unit when we get new players who want to do CW is that they come to us with bad builds. We don't bash them (some do, but the rest of us shut them up QUICK), we tell them how, and why this build can work, and how and why it can't work in CW. We usually end up with one of three things happening:

1- They go "okay", and adjust the build to fit CW.

2- They decide that they'd rather stick with this build, and either play CW casually, or not, until they afford extra mechs to load CW configs on, and use those in their drop deck

3- They decide CW isn't really for them right now, but wouldn't mind jumping in when we're not running full 12 mans.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 20 June 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[Tywren]

IraqiWalker, on 20 June 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

While I can agree with most of this, I will have to point something out. Almost all IS mechs cost as much if not more than their clan counterparts. In fact, in the lights, and mediums section, the price swings against the IS. For example, an IS Spider costs over 9 Million C-Bills to outfit, while a clan light will set you back 7-8 at best. Heavies, and assaults are where the prices are actually close, and could go one side or the other. For example, a King Crab kitted for long range will cost about 20 million C-Bills, same amount you'll pay for a long range DWF. IS has a lower ENTRY price, but all the upgrades needed really bring the prices up. So I can see the concern there, but as far as prices go, they're not as far apart as people think.

STK-4N 85 tons Cost 13,467,135
TDR-9S 65 tons Cost 7,850,933
DRG-1N 60 tons Cost 5,695,559
SDR-5K 30 tons Cost 8,391,505

That's a full weight drop deck of kitted out mechs that are top tier, or very close to it, for a total price of 35,405,132. To just reach the 160 ton minimum drop weight on clan side you'll have to buy 4 Ice Ferrets that cost over 10,000,000 each, and that's before the loadout changes that would be needed to make them viable in CW.

Some of the best cheese the IS has to offer, for 5 mil less than what the clans need just to scrape by.

Quote

Now, as for bad players getting in, the gate is more about creating the perception that this is not a mode you should enter quickly, and so they would expect things to be difficult. Rather than what we have now, where hordes of new players show up, thinking it's like the public queue. Get annihilated, and be turned off from the game.

Ok, that's reasonable; just a little something to let the player know. So how about starting off by disabling trial mechs in CW? That alone would ensure that new players coming in would have played enough matches to buy the 4 mechs needed to play. If that's not enough in and of it's self, then look into adding requirements for full basic unlocks.

Quote

If you put some kind of restriction, people understand why things happen. In League of Legends, you have to be rank 30 before you can participate in ranked matches, and you need at least 15 champions in your pool. What you have in the pool doesn't matter. You are playing the same game, there aren't even any different maps for ranked play compared to solo play. Yet we have this understanding: This is competitive. I need to up my game. I can't walk in with a champion that I just bought, and use it in there. Right now, we don't even have that perception, people sign up, and they see that faction button, and click it. That's a problem. That perception can help a lot.

There are already a lot of people pissing, and moaning that CW is turning into an E-Sport with the DOTA/LoL stile choke-point maps, so i'm hesitant on the idea of changes areas of the game, that further that view along.

I may reply to the rest later, but i need to get to bed now, my brain is turning into pudding.

Edited by Tywren, 21 June 2015 - 01:42 AM.

[STEF_]

Must agree with the op.

Stomping is becoming quite boring.

It makes no sense for noobs to go in free elo MM territory.
And it makes no sense going there with trial mechs.

As soon as we have a match (also when we are only a lance), we already know if it's going to be interesting or always the same 48 kills in 15 minutes.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 21 June 2015 - 01:23 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Tywren, on 21 June 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

uhhhh Tywren:

1- No one runs the SDR-5K in CW, and even then, you need AT LEAST an XL 255 (remove the extra DHS, and keep only 2 JJs, get FF to fit a 3rd JJ in there)
SDR-5K

2- NO ONE slaps a STD 300 on the Dragon. Not when you can add an XL 360 and still SAVE 1.5 tons (or 350 for 2.5 free tons) for more ammo. Not to mention that you need DHS with the 2xAC5s.
DRG-1N (13 Million)

3- The TDR 9S build is kinda respectable, but the more common ones are this one: TDR-9S, and this one: TDR-9S both at 9 million.

4-STK-4N STD 300 is almost mandatory, you need the improved torso twist in there. Also, why on earth is there a command console in there?

If you're going to propose builds, at least don't short change them, make the proper builds.

So the lights and mediums are more expensive on the IS side, heavies can go either way, and so do assaults (unless you want to compare the STK to the DWF, which is flawed, the KGC, is the counterpart of the DWF. STK matches up against the WHK, and they're very close in price (a 1-2 Million difference).

Edited by IraqiWalker, 21 June 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Cyborx, on 19 June 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

Creating a CW-Access criteria would stop rookies from getting their interest burned to ash before they are ready.

And when they are ready.. THEN we can burn their interest to ash Muhahaha!

[TWIAFU]

For a test, I would like to see CW try this;



12 man Unit vs 12 man Unit.
12 Man Skirmish vs 12 man Skirmish.

Skirmish groups are those made up of many smaller groups.
Unit being all of same Unit.

Just run that for MM instead of the current 12man Unit vs 12man Unit, no Units, then a 12man Skirmish. Skirmish teams say how badly they lose to Unit teams, so, remove Units and see how long before they complain it is now Skirmish teams that are evil. We can know if it is teamwork, or the lack of it, that is a deciding factor and Units can no longer be an excuse for bad gameplay.

Maybe make 2 CW Queues. Like we have our Pug game modes we choose, CW we could choose to face Skirmish Teams, Unit Teams, or both.

That way Skirmish can play only Skirmish, pug groups facing pug groups and no evil Units to stomp them.
Units can choose to play both.

Final change, end the ability of solos to drop in CW. It does them no good waiting for a group of 11 and it does the group of 11 no good either. Nothing against solo players in a social group game, but they have to be protected from themselves.

And I like the idea of No CW until after Cadet Bonus. At least they have some experience, some money, and maybe an owned mech. You just do not toss cadets into front line combat not knowing they would be cannon fodder.

Edited by TWIAFU, 21 June 2015 - 11:50 AM.