104 replies to this topic

[Koshirou]

IraqiWalker, on 23 June 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

That's the main point I've been trying to make.

Yeah, well, don't try to make your points by demonstrably false statements and don't try to back up these false statements by facts (CW map) which say the opposite of what you say they do, then say you meant something else. It's frankly tiring.

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Your original statement about IS being farmed by clans was attributed to tech disparity,

Nope. That's a possible secondary cause, since it does frustrate aspiring IS players. The overall still better clan tech provides an edge, but it is relatively small in relation to other factors (namely, player and team skill.) I mentioned the tech stuff only in response to the patently absurd statements that clan tech was actually inferior.

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and the "supposed to lose" side. Which really isn't true.

It is. Russ has openly stated that the CW campaign is about the "clan invasion". It cannot be about the clan invasion unless the IS is supposed to lose since, as you apparently realize yourself, there is no goal other than conquering as many planets as possible at the moment.

Russ has also stated, in a recent twitter post, that "CW is in its best state to date", which should tell you just how out of touch the developers are.

Edited by Koshirou, 23 June 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Koshirou, on 23 June 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

It is. Russ has openly stated that the CW campaign is about the "clan invasion". It cannot be about the clan invasion unless the IS is supposed to lose since, as you apparently realize yourself, there is no goal other than conquering as many planets as possible at the moment.

As in: the clan invasion is the main period we're fighting in (3050+). Not the fourth succession war, not the third, not the Jihad, or anything in between. It can be about the clan invasion, and still have the clans lose, which they almost did.

As for tech balance, both sides are very close right now. No one side holds an absolute edge over the other.

[Koshirou]

IraqiWalker, on 24 June 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

As in: the clan invasion is the main period we're fighting in (3050+). Not the fourth succession war, not the third, not the Jihad, or anything in between. It can be about the clan invasion, and still have the clans lose, which they almost did.

... which was then followed by an event to "get the invasion going". And as an explanation on why the IS did not get an equivalent event, Russ made the remark I referenced.
A lore-like "clan invasion" in which the clans march towards Terra, conquering dozens of worlds, requires the IS factions opposing them to lose constantly - as they do now. And since PGI responded to the IS winning* by tailoring an event to reverse this trend, flanked by remarks as the one above, they have clearly designated the (northern) IS as the "supposed to lose" faction.

* Of course, this does not really work since the clans don't start out with hundreds of worlds to conquer, which is one more reason this setup is complete foxtrotting bravo sierra.

Edited by Koshirou, 24 June 2015 - 12:21 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

... which was then followed by an event to "get the invasion going". And as an explanation on why the IS did not get an equivalent event, Russ made the remark I referenced.
A lore-like "clan invasion" in which the clans march towards Terra, conquering dozens of worlds, requires the IS factions opposing them to lose constantly - as they do now. And since PGI responded to the IS winning by tailoring an event to reverse this trend, flanked by remarks as the one above, they have clearly designated the (northern) IS as the "supposed to lose" faction.

OK, but the tech is balanced. PGI has done nothing that Maliciously hampered the IS (well, except for not having an entry restriction to CW, like not let people who don't have 4 elite mechs (or even full basics) into CW).

Have you played CW yet? Go drop with the 9th Sword of Light, or Legion of Vega, or (and I really don't like them, but as a last restort) NKVA. Drop as a group, with decent mechs, and judge for yourself. You'll see how close the matches really are. The population difference, plus organization level is the only reason IS are losing planets right now. Both are handled on the players' side.


EDIT: seriously, no theories, or assumptions. Go drop in CW with an organized group, and see what happens.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 24 June 2015 - 12:25 AM.

[Anjian]

Technically CW's game foundation is at its best state. Clan and IS techs, are close to balance.

What's happening is the growing disparity between the Haves (those with Experience and Resources) and the Have Nots. This is a classic problem with massive online games, not just MMORPGs but MMO shooters with acquisition, upgrade and module systems. Its classic predatory F2Pism. Those who win gets richer, gets more resources, and gets to win more and get even more resources. And those who lose, has to grudingly grind more and still lose more in the process before he reaches a state he may actually win consistently. Some of these players survive to reach that state, but more will just leave the game.

What is balanced or appears to be is the total, paper potential of a mech. How they are actually in the battlefield is not.

Consider the ginormous cost of running a fully decked preset for CW.

Mech, weapons, cost of XL engines, Ferros, Endos, Double Sinks, Advanced Zoom, +5 level Cool Off modules, +5 level Range modules, not to mention consumables, you maybe seeing around 20 million CBills. Maybe over that number. The modules alone reach half that number. Multiply that with 4 mechs and you maybe seeing around 80 to 100 million in CBills. How much in Mech XP? Probably over 40,000 each.

Then you have a two week player with trial mechs in his preset and others he is working on. He probably bought his mechs because they were "cool" looking and not exactly affliated with the nuances of strengths and fails in its design, like this mech is a little tall, or the hitboxes are bad. But it would be too late to remedy that. Should have probably read the forums to learn about the stinkers but he doesn't the real time luxuries for that.

*facepalm*

[Rushin Roulette]

Tywren, on 19 June 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

So your solution to an underpopulated CW, is to keep people out of CW? Let me guess, you also think you can spend your way out of debt, and **** your way into being a virgin, right?

Not unheard of
Countries can spend their way out of debt. in a limited fashion such as improving social systems and thus drawing more tax payers to their country.... as for the other one.... just find a rich guy willing to pay a hymen restoration operation

[Koshirou]

IraqiWalker, on 24 June 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

OK, but the tech is balanced.

Not really, but it's beside the point. The tech is unbalanced in the clans' favor, but the advantage is fairly small. (And PGI knows this, or at the very least thinks that players think this - obvious from the fact that clan Mechs are slightly more expensive.)

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PGI has done nothing that Maliciously hampered the IS

Clan events, greater rewards, basic setup...

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Have you played CW yet?

I drop with the 36th all the time (and we mostly win.) I've been in 6RNT for quite a while before that. Where do you think the "Sho-sa-ni" comes from?

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Go drop with the 9th Sword of Light, or Legion of Vega, or (and I really don't like them, but as a last restort) NKVA.

None of those units are currently active. NKVA is not in Kurita even. Seriously, the way you keep talking about stuff you have obviously no idea about is tiresome.

[IraqiWalker]

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 12:50 AM, said:

Not really, but it's beside the point. The tech is unbalanced in the clans' favor, but the advantage is fairly small. (And PGI knows this, or at the very least thinks that players think this - obvious from the fact that clan Mechs are slightly more expensive.)

DHS, XL engines, Endo, and FF contribute greatly to the cost, and if you did basic math, you'd realize that for the most part, the prices are actually very close. The only jump in price is in the heavies section, such as the TBR (it's price is very high right off the bat, because of it's XL 375, DHS, Endo, and FF)

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 12:50 AM, said:

Clan events, greater rewards, basic setup...

Funny, I remember how IS houses were also getting crazy C-Bill rewards as well.

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 12:50 AM, said:

I drop with the 36th all the time (and we mostly win.) I've been in 6RNT for quite a while before that. Where do you think the "Sho-sa-ni" comes from?

None of those units are currently active. NKVA is not in Kurita even. Seriously, the way you keep talking about stuff you have obviously no idea about is tiresome.

Didn't notice NKVA switching, on the other hand, the message I was trying to get across was "Drop with units". What's really tiring is having to spell everything out to people. I merely listed units I remember having good drops with, and they were meant as examples of units to drop with. Didn't think that was difficult to understand, and needed spelling out.

[Koshirou]

IraqiWalker, on 24 June 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

DHS, XL engines, Endo, and FF contribute greatly to the cost, and if you did basic math, you'd realize that for the most part, the prices are actually very close.

Dollars. Not Cbills. You seriously did not realize that this was about pack prices?

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Funny, I remember how IS houses were also getting crazy C-Bill rewards as well.

Get current!

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Didn't notice NKVA switching, on the other hand, the message I was trying to get across was "Drop with units".

I did not need that "advice", as you would've known if you had paid any attention to, among other things, the rank displayed below my name. That the "advice" was based on ignorance of current unit status just added to the general impression of obtuseness that makes discussing this with you a completely pointless endeavour.

[BSK]

Anjian, on 24 June 2015 - 12:36 AM, said:

Technically CW's game foundation is at its best state. Clan and IS techs, are close to balance.

Indeed! But the trial mechs available for new players don't really help. The Victor with an XL engine never lasts longer than secounds. The Banshee does have potential in dealing a lot of damage, but its also an XL. And then because people want to play the assaults, they add the Spider with 4 MG and a LL.
There needs to be a better dropdeck for IS or at least a tutorial that tells them the benefits and drawbacks of each 'mech in CW.

[Anjian]

A lot of players don't have the resources for specialized mechs for both pug and CW. If one thing I learned is that public pug configured mechs don't play well that well on CW and vice versa.

In the public game, you concentrate your best into one mech. The public games are short, brutally violent games, essentially one bulldozer trying to knock the other bulldozer down first before it does it to you. CW games are sustained, precise games of attrition, wearing out and chipping away the enemy. You have to plan your mechs for the starting game, the middle game and the end game, and you got 240 tons to allocate this.

If I want to play my Assault on the public game, I go play it. I find that for the entirety I played MWO, assaults often play a critical part in turning a public game. And that is really what they are for.

On CW, playing an Assault means you have to symmetrically balance that out with good light skills, because once that assault is spent, you have to rely on lighter mechs. This gets ugly if you don't have good light skills, which is the most skillfully demanding of all the weight classes. To consider a sustainable game from start, medium to end, players have to consider using combinations of mediums and heavies for their CW presets if you are not skillful with light mechs or facing lag issues using one (best you are under 100ms using one). The week or month old player, however, not likely to have enough mechs in his inventory for an optimal sustainable preset. A CW player cannot be a one trick pony. He needs to be good at all four of his mechs, which unless he is using 4 of the same 60 ton mech, means mastering at least two different mech classes, and then the particular variants he intends to use.

Edited by Anjian, 24 June 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Dollars. Not Cbills. You seriously did not realize that this was about pack prices?

Yes, it still doesn't change the argument, because the IS mechs come stock with crap equipment, thus requiring further investment from the player to compensate. While clan mechs come with top of the line equipment. There's a dollars to C-Bill exchange rate, and the pricing fits.

You seriously did not know this?

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Get current!

So according to you, when the IS houses had the higher rewards, PGI was intentionally shafting the clans? They always move the rewards around according to population.

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

I did not need that "advice", as you would've known if you had paid any attention to, among other things, the rank displayed below my name. That the "advice" was based on ignorance of current unit status just added to the general impression of obtuseness that makes discussing this with you a completely pointless endeavour.

I can drop into CW, and get farmed a few times, and reach a rank. Having a rank in CW is meaningless, because it doesn't tell me if you play with units or not. It doesn't tell me if you are good or not.

Now, I'm in favor of terminating this line of discussion as well, because we're getting no where.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 24 June 2015 - 02:39 AM.

[Koshirou]

IraqiWalker, on 24 June 2015 - 02:39 AM, said:

Yes, it still doesn't change the argument,

Complete Bravo Sierra. There is a $10 per Mech difference between Clan Wave 3 and Resistance 2, and it's got nothing to do whatsoever with equivalences of meaningless C-Bills. The very thought that a player would think to themselves "Oh, the IS Mechs are better, but I'll have to invest another $10 to buy all the equipment for them" is laughable.

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So according to you, when the IS houses had the higher rewards, PGI was intentionally shafting the clans?

Of course? It's a tool to move populations in order to affect player balance. When rewards are poor for one side, and high for the other, PGI obviously wants the latter side to become stronger. Or they are completely unaware of what they are doing. Not ruling that out either.

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I can drop into CW, and get farmed a few times,

I don't doubt that you can do that. Based on this thread, I doubt your ability to do other things: Make a rational argument, learn from mistakes, admit you have no clue, to name a few.

[Tywren]

I'd just like to point out that the reason clans are currently marching south, busting balls every step of the way, is primarily because everyone and their dog jumped to clans, so that they could tryout their shiny new Ebon Jagers in CW. Give it until the start of next month for the novelty to wear off, and people will start to drift back to the IS factions.

[Koshirou]

Tywren, on 24 June 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'd just like to point out that the reason clans are currently marching south, busting balls every step of the way, is primarily because everyone and their dog jumped to clans, so that they could tryout their shiny new Ebon Jagers in CW.

Nope. They were rolling south at nearly the same speed before the EBJ came out. What has changed is that IS resistance has crumbled almost completely, and I would argue that is more due to increasing numbers of loyalist IS players giving up.

Edited by Koshirou, 24 June 2015 - 12:17 PM.

[Tywren]

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Nope. They were rolling south at nearly the same speed before the EBJ came out. What has changed is that IS resistance has crumbled almost completely, and I would argue that is more due to increasing numbers of loyalist IS players giving up.

The switch didn't happen the day the EJ dropped. For groups that do medium to long contracts, they where making the switch 1.5 to 2 weeks ago.

Notice how Ghost Bear are all but dead in the water with only 2 planets? They are the clan most favored by clan loyalists. Now look at the clans that are doing the best; Wolf, and Falcon. Whenever MercStar go clans, it's to Clan Wolf, and then there is another group (i forget their name at the moment) who always go Falcon to mess with -MS- ,that's why you have that spit of JF territory cutting through the Wolf attack corridor all the way to the border of Jag space at the moment.

Like i said, it's a question of having everyone jump faction to test their new toys.

Now if you want to see that stop, tell PGI you want them to do away with mercs, and implement multiple pilots (character) per account. Make joining a faction something done at pilot creation.

Edited by Tywren, 24 June 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[Koshirou]

Tywren, on 24 June 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

The switch didn't happen the day the EJ dropped. For groups that do medium to long contracts, they where making the switch 1.5 to 2 weeks ago.

1.5 to 2 weeks ago from now? Clans were already steamrolling the IS. Or from the day the EBJ became available? Then we are talking about the short lull after the CW event which of course also had the clans steamrolling the IS. Since there only have been about 8 weeks total since the reset, this way you can fit the data to your little theory any which way you want.

But let us even assume your theory is not just fancy speculation (even though it obviously is and even though people assured me that the allegedly OP IS would resume its domination after the CW event, too): What does that say for CW, especially for "green" players who are the alleged topic of this thread? What does it say, indeed, for anybody other than whales who shelled out at least $90 for the Wave 3 pack? Foxtrot them, that's what it says. That's the most charitable conclusion one can draw. The other possibilities: PGI openly pampering Clan-playing whales, PGI not having a clue how to go about this CW thing, or a combination of these.

[IraqiWalker]

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

Complete Bravo Sierra. There is a $10 per Mech difference between Clan Wave 3 and Resistance 2, and it's got nothing to do whatsoever with equivalences of meaningless C-Bills. The very thought that a player would think to themselves "Oh, the IS Mechs are better, but I'll have to invest another $10 to buy all the equipment for them" is laughable.

Ah thank God. I thought I was talking to someone with some understanding of common sense. Glad that's not the case.

When you buy a TDR-5SS stock right now. Do you run it as is? No you don't. You need to invest in engines, and upgrades. Because the stock build is crap. Yet the 5SS is one of the best short-medium range brawlers in the entire game.

I guess basic deduction, and common sense are in short supply nowadays.

Spoiler

Of course, you all seem to forget that you're not paying 10 dollars for the mech only. You're getting all kinds of goodies that come with it. On average, you're getting 1.5x-3x what you're paying for.

Topped with the fact that there is a C-Bill to real money exchange rate, that is factored into this. Whether you like to admit it's there or not.

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

Of course? It's a tool to move populations in order to affect player balance. When rewards are poor for one side, and high for the other, PGI obviously wants the latter side to become stronger. Or they are completely unaware of what they are doing. Not ruling that out either.

While I'm not ruling that out either. I at least understand why they do it. The side with the smaller population gets the bigger rewards, to encourage merc flow that way. By the time of the next price adjustment, it will probably be the IS houses who get the bigger boost.

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

I don't doubt that you can do that. Based on this thread, I doubt your ability to do other things: Make a rational argument, learn from mistakes, admit you have no clue, to name a few.

Ah yes, sidestep the whole comment on focus on one part. This seems to be a specialty of yours. What I did say, is that anyone can get that rank. Having it tells me diddly. Glad to see that escaped your superior powers of "no perception", and "lack of deductive ability".

You really enjoy making fictitious arguments, don't you?

I also gave you the chance to end this, and you still decide to shove your foot in your mouth.

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

PGI not having a clue how to go about this CW thing

That's really it. The green players shouldn't be in CW to begin with. You don't let a new player that can't tell which end of the gun to point at the enemy jump into the competitive queue.

That has been one of the more frustrating things about CW. On top of lack of context, consequence, or even decent rewards.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 24 June 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[Koshirou]

IraqiWalker, on 24 June 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

When you buy a TDR-5SS stock right now.

No, no, of course I spend real money to buy the equipment I need to put in it, like any sensible person would apparently...

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Topped with the fact that there is a C-Bill to real money exchange rate

This idea is and remains completely ridiculous. No player on the level we are talking about here would think of it like this. Have you even been playing this game all that much?

The thought that the neat $10 per Mech difference (not total price, btw, as your answer implies) between R2 and W3 packs represents some sort of exchange rate for C-Bill values is preposterous on the face of it, and the fact that you'd actually insult others' intelligence by offering it as a serious explanation is rather telling.

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Ah yes, sidestep the whole comment on focus on one part.

Not so much "sidestep" as "did not take seriously".

Edited by Koshirou, 25 June 2015 - 12:14 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

No, no, of course I spend real money to buy the equipment I need to put in it, like any sensible person would apparently...

You can spend real money, and save yourself the time, or grind for them. Either way, you had to invest more into an IS mech to get it up to speed, whereas a clan mech comes pre-packaged "up to speed", so to speak. If you can't understand something that simple, I don't know what I can do for you. "Go to school" might work, but I'm not sure that will be enough.

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

This idea is and remains completely ridiculous. No player on the level we are talking about here would think of it like this. Have you even been playing this game all that much?

What level? The level of a game player? Because that's the only level factored here. If you're too thick skulled to understand that there's an exchange rate, there's nothing more I can do for you. It's there, whether you realize that, or pretend it's not there, doesn't change that it's there.

If you can't comprehend basic math, there's nothing I can do to help you understand.

Koshirou, on 24 June 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Not so much "sidestep" as "did not take seriously".

Are you 4? Really, that's the best you got. Kurita trolls really are getting crappy.

Look kid, I'll give you the short and sweet of it:

You've been going no where. You don't understand something as simple as real money = C-Bills, even though the mechanism has been in the game from day 1 (Seriously, have you played this game at all? No, your rank makes me think I'm talking to someone on the account of a player, and not an actual player).

I don't have the time to teach you how balance works, and why, and frankly, there are enough threads about it that you can do it yourself.

Last but not least: Running away from a discussion point immediately puts you in the position of never being taken seriously. So I advise you to take your foot out of your mouth, and end this lame attempt at a discussion.

P.S.: Ad hominem attacks don't really help here.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 25 June 2015 - 12:13 AM.