37 replies to this topic

[Shad0wsFury]

So I'm a founder who played a lot in beta, but stopped shortly after launch mostly because I got bored waiting for content. I was happy to find a few weeks ago when I checked back in with MWO that CW was in beta, so naturally I wanted to try it out.

I'll admit, I'm not up on whatever the current meta tactics are, and my skills are a bit rusty, but I've been doing my best to work with my team (unless it's totally clear most of them are derping around independently, in which case I usually leroy my 4 mechs and move on).

Some things about CW have just baffled me though.

First is that the Clan and IS teams are fighting at what seems like equal numbers (if not equal weight, but I don't know what the clan drop weight is). Maybe MWO is balanced for this, but as a longtime BattleTech nerd, putting an IS unit against an equal numbered Clan unit is only something I would do to an inexperienced player who I wanted to teach a lesson to (that lesson being: "Don't F with the Clans"). Even putting an IS company (12 mechs) against a Clan binary (10 mechs) usually means doom for the IS unit unless there are other mitigating factors. In MWO, with things working a bit different from the board game, I think 12v10 would be a bit more balanced of a match. Has it been tried? Are there technological limitations or barriers to trying it?

Second is that despite the variety in maps (which has improved greatly since "launch"), there is little variety in game mode. Honestly this doesn't worry me much, because beta only had the Assault game mode, and Conquest and Skirmish were clearly added since I was away. I imagine different CW missions are in the works, but I'm surprised they're not available for testing.

Third is that there is little or no barrier to players joining CW. I've seen some other discussions about this, and how it might be implemented. Personally I think there needs to be a second--significantly higher--barrier to joining clan factions, like having fought for an Inner Sphere faction for a defined contact length and amount of drops. Maybe even disallow trial mechs entirely in CW, which would create a practical cbill barrier, but would also create a figurative pyramid of progression with the clans at the top (possibly not solving the problem).

Anyway, I don't have any world-shattering suggestions, just pointing out some things I noticed in CW in my few weeks back in MWO.

[masCh]

Clan mechs get the same tonnage limitations : 240t.

The barrier to entry to join the clans is just Cbills or real world money because those mechs are more expensive.

We have been asking for 12v10 for a long time. PGI is not interested in doing that.

PGI believes that IS will win in a 12v10 (3 lances vs 2 stars) matchup unless Clans got 100 tonnes extra. I don't know where they got this number from, I just wonder why they have not put this to real world tests. It is in beta after all.

They claim to have done some internal testing.

But it must be that same "internal testing" that made them think putting all the ogens so close together next to the turrets and omega is a great idea.

So please don't blame me for not having much faith in their "internal testing" results.

[Skarlock]

This is not the tabletop. The best clan mechs have been toned down a bit, the worst ones given some buffs, and a lot of IS mechs have received considerable buffs in the form of heat reduction (to make up for lack of smaller double heat sinks and free tonnage), faster firing weapons, range bonuses, laser duration reduction to concentrate damage better, etc. etc.

IS can fight on the level of the clans, but you need a solid drop deck that takes advantage of the best quirked mechs the IS has to offer. Stalker 4N, Wolverines, Thunderbolts, Firestarters and Ravens make up a big chunk of the core of IS mechs you want to use. On the clan side things will probably change a bit due to the nerfs of the storm crow and timber wolf, but I still think most people will be using them, along with hellbringers, the new ebon jaguar, and sometimes the ice ferret to fill out your remaining tonnage.

During the battle of Tukayyid the clans won about 57% of their matches I think vs. IS. The event prior to that, they won about 53% vs. IS. Since Tukayyid the best clan mechs have been toned down a bit so it's probably a bit more even now. Overall though if you want to do well in CW, form a pre-made group. Anyone can play CW but to play it well you need the right mechs and a group that coordinates well.

[Shad0wsFury]

Forming coordinated groups is all well and good, but after playing CW for about two weeks in House Kurita, I can count on my fingers how many times I've seen anything posted in Faction chat. I am trying to find an active unit, but it appears there may be only one active unit in my faction in my TZ, and they may speak a different language than I do. Grouping up in-game seems relatively pointless, as I can join up with random people in matches, skip a whole step of finding a group, and get roughly the same results.

So while I respect the "group up" message, I think it gets thrown around a lot when it is not entirely practical or worthwhile.

Edited by Shad0wsFury, 22 June 2015 - 05:38 AM.

[AdamBaines]

Shad0wsFury, on 22 June 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

Third is that there is little or no barrier to players joining CW. I've seen some other discussions about this, and how it might be implemented. Personally I think there needs to be a second--significantly higher--barrier to joining clan factions, like having fought for an Inner Sphere faction for a defined contact length and amount of drops. Maybe even disallow trial mechs entirely in CW, which would create a practical cbill barrier, but would also create a figurative pyramid of progression with the clans at the top (possibly not solving the problem).

I have been thinking about how to answer this point as I agree with it in spirit and think it would be good. But in the end, people here on these forums don't want to have to work for anything anymore. They don't want to have to earn piloting a Mad Cat or Executioner. They want to pay their cash to buy it NOW. There are many awesome things about this MWO community, but one which is not good is the general sense of entitlement, and that they want it THEIR way and what they think is the only right thing. So putting barriers up will bring a huge outcry unfortunately. And with the player base so small, in a way PGI does have to listen, to a degree. Now with the Steam release and a larger injection of players, MAYBE that could change. But I doubt it.

[Lugh]

Skarlock, on 22 June 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

This is not the tabletop. The best clan mechs have been toned down a bit, the worst ones given some buffs, and a lot of IS mechs have received considerable buffs in the form of heat reduction

A bit? Your mastery of understatement is complete.

The IS whining about how OP the clans are, cracks me up. I've watched IS teams lack coordination and teamwork and get rolled and then ***** and moan in general chat how OP the clans are, when really we just used better coordination and tactics to win.

The IS mechs by and large are BETTER than many of the clan mechs because of the quirkening and their ultimate customizability. The clan mechs are only better out of the box, and have far more limits on their ability to customize. If the mech doesn't have ENDO steel initially you can just piss off, because you can't add it. Not because you don't have the slots, just because **** YOU.

You have IN GAME VOICE TURN IT ON. There aren't any squeakers playing this game

[Wildstreak]

Shad0wsFury, on 22 June 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

First is that the Clan and IS teams are fighting at what seems like equal numbers (if not equal weight, but I don't know what the clan drop weight is).

Second is that despite the variety in maps (which has improved greatly since "launch"), there is little variety in game mode.

Third is that there is little or no barrier to players joining CW.

1 - Claimed by PGI that 12 v 10 or something else will not work so they went with changing weapon mechanics and everyone plays equal sides.

2 - Doubtful there may be any new mode for some time. 4v4 is being tested but not much else.

3 - And they leave very quickly.

masCh, on 22 June 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

The barrier to entry to join the clans is just Cbills or real world money because those mechs are more expensive.

Not that much of a barrier, some Clan builds that work are just as much as IS builds of equal weight.

Supposedly the list of active Kurita groups. Thing is even groups leave CW including now when there is an event going on that focuses on the PUG queue. After Tuesday, there will be a shift back to CW for some players.

[Shad0wsFury]

I agree it is less of a tech advantage and more of a coordination advantage on behalf of the clans. Part of the problem may be that there are simply more people fighting for the clans, and that those people tend to be more experienced and/or resourced players.

It's a combination of the mechs and the players (and their coordination) that, in my experience, have tipped the balance in favor of the clans in CW.

Wildstreak, on 22 June 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

Supposedly the list of active Kurita groups. Thing is even groups leave CW including now when there is an event going on that focuses on the PUG queue. After Tuesday, there will be a shift back to CW for some players.

LOL. The newest two posts in that thread are April 26th "we regret to inform our unit is no longer active" and May 7th (nearly two weeks later), "we'll remove your unit from the roster" and then nothing for the past six weeks. I think it's safe to say that there aren't many active Kurita units, going by that thread.

[sdsnowbum]

Shad0wsFury, on 22 June 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

I agree it is less of a tech advantage and more of a coordination advantage on behalf of the clans. Part of the problem may be that there are simply more people fighting for the clans, and that those people tend to be more experienced and/or resourced players.

It's a combination of the mechs and the players (and their coordination) that, in my experience, have tipped the balance in favor of the clans in CW.

I think it's due to the high population of disorganized solos who play IS, and the fact that every clan can attack an IS planet. So any clan that can get organized will be able to arrange a match against a disorganized IS defense, and on the odd chance the Clan side loses it won't 'cost' them as much - no planet changing colors.

[Khereg]

masCh, on 22 June 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

We have been asking for 12v10 for a long time. PGI is not interested in doing that.

Not to speak on PGI's behalf, but my speculation on this is that it would cause all kinds of issues in public (really, solo) queue: to balance the game, one team would have to bring all clan while the other brought all IS. Combined with ELO considerations, matchmaking would become more difficult and time to make matches would go up. Maybe waaaay up.

Even in group queue, groups would have to bring all clan or all IS, numbers and weight would have to balanced, and again the matchmaker might just melt down.

So, instead PGI is trying to keep all mechs roughly equal via the quirk system, which, while not in line with lore, makes running an online video game much, much simpler. I don't blame them. The alternative sounds very, very difficult to manage.

Edited to add: I forgot to say the reason you can't do this for CW and not for regular queue is the same mechs are used in both queues. Unless you want to have different nerfs/buffs for CW vs regular queue (which also sounds horrific), you have to make the mechs the same for both.

Edited by Khereg, 22 June 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Lugh]

Khereg, on 22 June 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Not to speak on PGI's behalf, but my speculation on this is that it would cause all kinds of issues in public (really, solo) queue: to balance the game, one team would have to bring all clan while the other brought all IS. Combined with ELO considerations, matchmaking would become more difficult and time to make matches would go up. Maybe waaaay up.

Even in group queue, groups would have to bring all clan or all IS, numbers and weight would have to balanced, and again the matchmaker might just melt down.

So, instead PGI is trying to keep all mechs roughly equal via the quirk system, which, while not in line with lore, makes running an online video game much, much simpler. I don't blame them. The alternative sounds very, very difficult to manage.

Edited to add: I forgot to say the reason you can't do this for CW and not for regular queue is the same mechs are used in both queues. Unless you want to have different nerfs/buffs for CW vs regular queue (which also sounds horrific), you have to make the mechs the same for both.

The math was already done in BT with something called BV. And you should be balancing matches based solely on that.

It's really really simple.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Don't mistake it for 12 IS Lore Stock mechs vs 12 Clan Lore Stock 'mechs
currently we have 12 min/maxed custom weapon loadouts with double heatsinks/endo/fibro and custom engine IS mechs vs 12 min/maxed custom weapon loadouts on custom omnipod clanmechs.

Don't forget that 12 IS mechs nowadays bring the firepower equal to 24 IS mechs.
And don't forget the really good metasauce IS mechs got quirks while the really good metasauce Clan mechs got negative quirks.

we had a chance for 12 vs 10, PGI went with quirks instead.

This is not Lore, this is ballanced multiplayer teamshooter simuator where urbanmechs run 107 kph.

[DoctorDetroit]

Lugh, on 22 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The math was already done in BT with something called BV. And you should be balancing matches based solely on that.

It's really really simple.

Nope. Battle value system is not simple. LOL! The battle value system for TT was not perfect. Trying to make a balanced BV system for MWO would be next to impossible. It would be far too easy to game a BV system. Not to mention all the work required to implement it. BV didn't take into account hardpoint locations or hit boxes.

No barrier to entry. Everyone should be allowed to play. What is wrong with you? Bad teammates just makes it easier to earn more LPs and c-bills. If you are really worried about it, join a unit.

What is baffling in CW is that gates open when the power gets knocked out. How did they not realize that made no sense at all?

[Revis Volek]

LOADED, on 22 June 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Don't mistake it for 12 IS Lore Stock mechs vs 12 Clan Lore Stock 'mechs
currently we have 12 min/maxed custom weapon loadouts with double heatsinks/endo/fibro and custom engine IS mechs vs 12 min/maxed custom weapon loadouts on custom omnipod clanmechs.

Don't forget that 12 IS mechs nowadays bring the firepower equal to 24 IS mechs.
And don't forget the really good metasauce IS mechs got quirks while the really good metasauce Clan mechs got negative quirks.

we had a chance for 12 vs 10, PGI went with quirks instead.

This is not Lore, this is ballanced multiplayer teamshooter simuator where urbanmechs run 107 kph.

We actually never had a chance for 10v12, PGI has said more times then i count that this would result in a total tear down and re do of the MM and would result in Down time in the game which PGi thinks would be more of a loss then the current system.

Also, whats wrong with Urbanmechs going 107? I guess you dont want other mechs to be viable in this game?

[Dawnstealer]

Yeah - Clan and IS mechs are pretty well balanced at the moment. The real problem with CW at this point mostly circles around the points that it takes forever to get a drop (which causes people to stop playing, which makes it a longer wait to get a drop, which causes people to...you get the idea), and there's nothing to fight for.

For the second one, you're just making a dot change color. There's no real reward beyond "gaining ranks," which are also kind of pointless beyond the one-time rewards associated with them. The planets don't vary, there's not enough maps, PGI picked the wrong gamemodes, so it's all just team deathmatch.

I'd say drop in the quick-game modes (Assault, Conquest, Skirmish) or maybe check back in a couple months. CW's still very much beta.

[WustenFuchs1991]

Here is the major reason that 12v10 cannot work as it currently stands. Quirked IS mechs stand on par with the vast majority of Clan mechs. This creates a semblance of balance in even matchups. If the Clanners were to lose two mechs per drop then the power disparity would make CW even less appealing as even the best teams would struggle to change the balance. In the end PGI would have to revert Clan nerfs back to even the numbers issue. In CW that is all well and good. Clans hit harder and faster but IS can soak up more punishment with more mechs. What happens in pug drops though? Suddenly those newly buffed Clan mechs actually would be OP as so many IS players complain about. Those of us who remember the day that the Clans shipped will recall being able to outrange, outbrawl, and outgun any IS mech across the board. In order to make 12v10 fair then this would need to be restored. As long as their is a pug game though, then it won't happen.

ps - I am not saying that the pug queues need to go. I quite like them when I don't have the time or patience for a CW match.

Edited by SourKraut91, 22 June 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[DoctorDetroit]

12 v 10 is inherently unbalanced because of the greater focus fire and APM (actions per minute) of the team with more players. Even if the raw firepower of the mechs were made balanced (somehow!), the increased decision making and actions of the team with 12 players would outperform an equivalently skilled 10-man.

If somehow you buffed the clans enough to handle the IS, nobody would want to play anything but clan because you would feel like you were better in clan (more kills / higher score).

[Moldur]

I would rather have a 10v12 or even an 8v12 CW with 'lore' balanced superior clan mechs, and then have the current behavior of clan mechs in regular queue. OP, clan mechs are (very) roughly same-tier as IS mechs in this game. Everyone will argue differently because we're split into biased factions, but that's why it's 12v12. Also, I don't think PGI has the capacity to code asymmetric team numbers.

The argument can also go that nobody would play IS because they would feel like fodder. There's probably a few hundered suggestions on how to make a better CW in this forum section alone, but PGI isn't keen on fixing their mess because they invested so much time into it... or something.

Edited by Moldur, 22 June 2015 - 03:02 PM.

[GI Journalist]

DarthRevis, on 22 June 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

We actually never had a chance for 10v12, PGI has said more times then i count that this would result in a total tear down and re do of the MM and would result in Down time in the game which PGi thinks would be more of a loss then the current system.

If I was more impressed with their current matchmaker, this prospect might bother me. However, you're right.

PGI's bottom-line is that they would have to rebuild their matchmaker, and I suspect they would rather work on new features than redo both the matchmaker and quirks.

In the meantime, people who are really interested can run 10 Clan against 12 I.S. in private matches and check the results.

[Eider]

Lugh, on 22 June 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

A bit? Your mastery of understatement is complete.

The IS whining about how OP the clans are, cracks me up. I've watched IS teams lack coordination and teamwork and get rolled and then ***** and moan in general chat how OP the clans are, when really we just used better coordination and tactics to win.

The IS mechs by and large are BETTER than many of the clan mechs because of the quirkening and their ultimate customizability. The clan mechs are only better out of the box, and have far more limits on their ability to customize. If the mech doesn't have ENDO steel initially you can just piss off, because you can't add it. Not because you don't have the slots, just because **** YOU.

You have IN GAME VOICE TURN IT ON. There aren't any squeakers playing this game

Yea its not like the top 3 mechs in game arent clan and that organization fixes broken hitboxes etc. No it is clearly just organization and why so many people refuse to play cw. Its not that put simply such inbalances are more balanced out in other game modes by being included in possible mechs for your team as opposed to stacking them all in one side. I mean really, what are the IS top mechs? Dragon? and thats a match for a timber of equal skill? LOL and people wonder why cw is an afterthought in this game to most players.