62 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 June 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

First off, Gauss is NOT OP, not even close, otherwise we'd see EVERY single Mech capable of carrying one using one, and we straight up do NOT see that, we have NEVER seen that in the entire course of MWO to date. Between tonnage, size, charge up(which I happen to like now), and it's wonderful propensity for blowing the hell up if you so much as look at it wrong, it more than makes up for the 15 damage, 0 heat, long range.



Ok, new rule, if anyone uses a Stackpole novel to show how something is supposed to work in BTech, they should be whacked by the baliff. If you don't get the reference, Google Cheech and Chong Trippin in Court.

Sorry, but I am so sick and tired of people using Stackpole's bs as reasons, especially when his bs was so far off base as to be in an entirely different universe. Gauss weapons don't draw massive current from the reactor when you fire them, the capacitors are ALREADY charged and will start to recharge AFTER you fire, not when you pull the trigger. And they don't actually require massive amounts of power, that's the beauty of Gauss, less power required than a railgun, it's the timing that matters the most, not the power.

MWO has a 2 Gauss at a time limit for BALANCE that's it, Paul ADDED that limit to the game right before the Clan Wave I Mechs were added, remember? It didn't exist prior to that, charge up did, but not the 2 firing max at a time limit, and we DID have a Mech that could field 3 Gauss, no one ever complained about it though. Dire Wolf, which can handle 4, that was a concern, so they pre-empted the issue by setting the 2 at time firing limit. Nothing to do with lore, canon or fluff, purely Paul's balancing.

Like it or not, he is a part of lore....

[reign]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

That's a railgun, not a coil gun.

sorry when I searched coil gun i got that video

http://www.military..../4288021718001/

[DaZur]

Sorry kids but this is a circular argument...

I watch these kinds of argument wage on flightsim forums for many years where the purist would recite -1 flight manuals for flight performance metrics and the other half would recount anecdotal evidence offered by ex-pilots.

It's a no win for both sides... Numbers are empirical but first-hand knowledge is also important in terms of adding "color and life" to the raw data.

That said, I'd be remiss if I didn't weigh in on this being a dual Gauss abuser... My horse in the races says "keep everything as it is". Yes, I'm biased and proud of it!

[Kristov Kerensky]

LOADED, on 22 June 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

But the phract was a glass cannon jokebuild, stupidly underarmored and stupidly slow.

I don't see why we would need a nerf on guass, we already have the chargeup time which add's to the cooldown (i don't mind the charge up at all, a powerful weapon should have a higher skillcap) but i mind the cooldown extension. then again it's okay and useable.
I think the gauss is op in a lot of minds because it was pretty much the only flpd nonboatable ballisitc the clans had for a long time. And still it the only ballistic which can be easily paired with heatintensive clan lasers (in chance you don't know, even backup lasers are stupidly hot for clanmechs).

Personally, i think the gauss is one of the most balanced weapons in the game, it has stong points, it has weak points.

I didn't say the Cataphract was GOOD with triGauss, just that it existed and could fire all 3 at once prior to the Clan Wave I being added to the game. To date, only the Dire Wolf can effectively carry more than 2 Gauss, and you still don't see lots of Dire's with 3 or 4 Gauss, it's just not effective enough to be useful. Fun, but that's not the same as effective.

There is no lore/canon/fluff reason for the 2 at a time firing limit on Gauss, it's purely a balance thing, that's it.

cdlord, on 22 June 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Like it or not, he is a part of lore....

Baliff....

[DaZur]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 June 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Baliff....

...whack his pee pee.

[ScarecrowES]

Gauss is so good that it has the lowest damage output per second per ton of any ballistic and almost noone uses it. Its the second worst ballistic on the IS side for battle utility and on the clan side its debatable with recent ac buffs.

Let's be honest. Noone is out there getting killed by gauss rifles because because of how good the gauss is. Its because until recently the clans had little else.

[CDLord HHGD]

DaZur, on 22 June 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

...whack his pee pee.

[Revis Volek]

Jazzbandit1313, on 22 June 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Gauss is a 0 heat, instant pinpoint 150damage. There are almost no negatives for using this weapon.

Some may say weight, crit chance, explosion effect.....but they don't outweigh how good this weapon is right now. Charge mechanic or not, its the most powerful ballistic.

Its actually not...

The AC20 by definition is more powerful but I will agree has more drawbacks, I also prefer the 20 when i brawl and the Gauss when i mid range poke/snipe.

Now if you want to say the Gauss is a better all around weapon I may agree, but i still dont think its better then the IS AC20.

[Nathan Foxbane]

cdlord, on 22 June 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

There is a lore example for the power drain caused by the Gauss. Read it in Vlad's battle with Phelan (Vlad's Executioner).

This is unfortunately Stackpole being, well, Stackpole. The only time this convention is followed is in Phelan's Trial of Position as it was Phelan's plot armor for the battle. Every other time a 'Mech with native dual or even triple Gauss shows up in lore they cut loose with everything they have at least once with no delay between weapons. Hell, Adam Steiner nearly kills Victor Steiner-Davion with triple Gauss from his Thunderhawk in Storms of Fate. In Flashpoint, written by Coleman, David McCarthy's Devastator and Evan Greene's Cerberus do not skimp on the alphas. Wendy Karner's Devastator also suffers no delays fighting the Smoke Jaguars in Grave Covenant, which was written by Stackpole. No, the whole weapon delay was a plot device which Stackpole himself discarded as soon as it served its purpose.

[CDLord HHGD]

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 June 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

This is unfortunately Stackpole being, well, Stackpole. The only time this convention is followed is in Phelan's Trial of Position as it was Phelan's plot armor for the battle. Every other time a 'Mech with native dual or even triple Gauss shows up in lore they cut loose with everything they have at least once with no delay between weapons. Hell, Adam Steiner nearly kills Victor Steiner-Davion with triple Gauss from his Thunderhawk in Storms of Fate. In Flashpoint, written by Coleman, David McCarthy's Devastator and Evan Greene's Cerberus do not skimp on the alphas. Wendy Karner's Devastator also suffers no delays fighting the Smoke Jaguars in Grave Covenant, which was written by Stackpole. No, the whole weapon delay was a plot device which Stackpole himself discarded as soon as it served its purpose.

Granted...

So what can we take from this?

It served a purpose. Which is all I suggested anyways. It's OK if you don't agree, not many do.

[Nathan Foxbane]

cdlord, on 22 June 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Granted...

So what can we take from this?

It served a purpose. Which is all I suggested anyways. It's OK if you don't agree, not many do.

It served a purpose. Once. And was never even spoken of again. To use it to reflect gameplay should require consistent use in lore, not a one off, "One of my main characters needs some extra plot armor!"
What can we actually take away from it? Stackpole has some 'splainin' to do about making Natasha Kerensky so ignorant about the weapon and Clan technicians so incompetent?

As for the penalties. I do not see dual Gauss as unbalanced. And the penalties do not reflect lore which is a discharge of a capacitor bank. If it was a direct draw from the engine itself, there would be massive heat, but the cycle time is the time it takes to recharge the capacitor bank safely. So heat is out. Despite the amount of energy required for firing the actual draw from the engine is for the recharge and not nearly enough to hinder any other functions like speed. The charge up we have in-game is "game balance" regardless of the fact that it serves as less like a desync from PPCs and more like a skill gate.

[L3mming2]

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 June 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

It served a purpose. Once. And was never even spoken of again. To use it to reflect gameplay should require consistent use in lore, not a one off, "One of my main characters needs some extra plot armor!"
What can we actually take away from it? Stackpole has some 'splainin' to do about making Natasha Kerensky so ignorant about the weapon and Clan technicians so incompetent?

As for the penalties. I do not see dual Gauss as unbalanced. And the penalties do not reflect lore which is a discharge of a capacitor bank. If it was a direct draw from the engine itself, there would be massive heat, but the cycle time is the time it takes to recharge the capacitor bank safely. So heat is out. Despite the amount of energy required for firing the actual draw from the engine is for the recharge and not nearly enough to hinder any other functions like speed. The charge up we have in-game is "game balance" regardless of the fact that it serves as less like a desync from PPCs and more like a skill gate.

... the massive current going thru the gun coils create the heat, not the slow recharging of the capacitators

[Y E O N N E]

L3mming2, on 22 June 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

... the massive current going thru the gun coils create the heat, not the slow recharging of the capacitators

This.

Though, there would actually still be some residual heat buildup during the charge, especially given how fast it has to draw current to fill the capacitors in 0.75 seconds or even 4.75 seconds.

If we wanted to go full-on realism mode with heat, all energy weapons except Gauss (unless we revert it to its always charged state) would have some form of constant heat generation rate (call it charging heat) when equipped with a spike on firing. Gauss would generate some heat when you charge it up and spike on firing. The firing heat-spikes would not be additive with the charge heat. Charge heat generation goes to zero when you fire and stays there until the firing cycle is complete.

So, your heat-sinks would always be working to dissipate heat from your weapons at all times. Say you've got two MedLas that each generate 0.1 charge heat per second. Your 10 DHS dissipating 2.0 heat/sec provide you with 1.8 heat/sec of overhead whenever your MedLas are not firing.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 June 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

This.

Though, there would actually still be some residual heat buildup during the charge, especially given how fast it has to draw current to fill the capacitors in 0.75 seconds or even 4.75 seconds.

If we wanted to go full-on realism mode with heat, all energy weapons except Gauss (unless we revert it to its always charged state) would have some form of constant heat generation rate (call it charging heat) when equipped with a spike on firing. Gauss would generate some heat when you charge it up and spike on firing. The firing heat-spikes would not be additive with the charge heat. Charge heat generation goes to zero when you fire and stays there until the firing cycle is complete.

So, your heat-sinks would always be working to dissipate heat from your weapons at all times. Say you've got two MedLas that each generate 0.1 charge heat per second. Your 10 DHS dissipating 2.0 heat/sec provide you with 1.8 heat/sec of overhead whenever your MedLas are not firing.

Yes the energy dump is hot. It is, however, a capacitor bank which means once it is charged it takes minimal input to stay charged. Heat from charging the bank would be a function of how fast the bank is charged. Lasers and particle cannons do not work the same way as Gauss in BT. They draw power directly from the engine which spikes to meet demand. What sounds hotter, dumping a capacitor bank or spiking a Fusion Reactor? Gauss is a comparatively cool running weapon, not an actually cool running weapon. BattleMechs are heat generating monstrosities, so anything which generates heat becomes comparative on them.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 22 June 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Mystere]

When asking for something to be "balanced" it's always a good idea to first state why it needs to be balanced. Creating a thread without such a rationale is just pointless.

Edited by Mystere, 22 June 2015 - 01:48 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Mystere, on 22 June 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

When asking for something to be "balanced" it's always a good idea to first state why it needs to be balanced. Creating a thread without such a rationale is just pointless.

Not so easy to do if the reason for the suggestion is due to one's perception of the meta and it's fairness in the overall gameplay. You've got people here perfectly fine with meta. Then there's those who want more diversity. Stating the reason for the suggestion opens itself up for critique and oft times, the suggestion gets lost int he flame war over the reason for it.

[Lightfoot]

It's 15 tons and does 15 damage, Clan is lighter, but Clan mechs usually have much lower payload capacity too. So it is balanced, at least until PGI turned it into the 2xGauss sniper rifle at 2000 meters per second. What's funny is that this is what they were supposed to be blocking with the charge-up nerf, but all they did was block average player's and non-2xGauss capable mechs from using the Gauss. Yes, it stopped the Gauss from being used, but by blocking it from average players and mechs, not by balancing it.

[Mystere]

cdlord, on 22 June 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

Not so easy to do if the reason for the suggestion is due to one's perception of the meta and it's fairness in the overall gameplay. You've got people here perfectly fine with meta. Then there's those who want more diversity. Stating the reason for the suggestion opens itself up for critique and oft times, the suggestion gets lost int he flame war over the reason for it.

Well, I'm not one of those who accept change just for change's sake. I really need to know the "Why?".

[Kristov Kerensky]

cdlord, on 22 June 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

Not so easy to do if the reason for the suggestion is due to one's perception of the meta and it's fairness in the overall gameplay. You've got people here perfectly fine with meta. Then there's those who want more diversity. Stating the reason for the suggestion opens itself up for critique and oft times, the suggestion gets lost int he flame war over the reason for it.

And nerfing a weapon to change the meta simply because is a good reason why exactly? And I don't think that is the real reason either, as the OP and a few others have been pushing to get the Gauss nerfed because it's OP, that's their real reason.

Their OP based argument is that it does 15 point of damage and has no heat.

That's it, nothing else, just that. They say it's OP, therefore it must be and it needs to be nerfed NOW!

Some people's kids man....

[Y E O N N E]

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 June 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Yes the energy dump is hot. It is, however, a capacitor bank which means once it is charged it takes minimal input to stay charged. Heat from charging the bank would be a function of how fast the bank is charged. Lasers and particle cannons do not work the same way as Gauss in BT. They draw power directly from the engine which spikes to meet demand. What sounds hotter, dumping a capacitor bank or spiking a Fusion Reactor? Gauss is a comparatively cool running weapon, not an actually cool running weapon. BattleMechs are heat generating monstrosities, so anything which generates heat becomes comparative on them.

I said hardcore "realism" mode. In that mode, you have to have capacitor banks for lasers, PPCs, and Gauss rifles because, in real life (and most respectable fiction), a fusion reaction can't be scaled up or down in spikes; that's not how a fusion (or fission, or even fossil fuel) reaction works. It's going to be a relatively constant thermal output that you convert to electricity. That by itself will generate a bunch of heat to be disposed of, so we just assume that any heat capacity we have for weapons is overhead to our reactor's load management. The electrical output is going to be automatically stored in capacitor banks for each installed, electric weapon. Firing will incur a heat spike because of a massive current draw, and charging will incur a lesser heat spike because it has to draw that same energy up again in what is roughly three times the time it took to fire it, which is still pretty fast. The constant thermal load from the weapon to hold that charge depends on how efficient the capacitors are at storing a charge. Based on how utterly inept the scientists in BTech seem to be, I'm going to go out and a limb and say that they are probably mediocre at best. Because they are mediocre and because the energy involved to make photons and ions damaging to hardened targets and to move slugs at Mach 7+ are tremendous, that "minimal" thermal load will remain fairly hefty.

You are going also to have to make sure your total power expenditures in charging installed weapons doesn't exceed your power output, or your weapons will have to charge in series instead of in parallel, adding to the delay if you want to fire them all together.

Finally, if the Gauss is so cool in BTech terms, then the AC/20 should be just as cool.