76 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

Why remove a MGs cone of fire? Machine guns are not pin point accurate weapons they are spray and prey. Even the GAU-9 sprays a stream of shells into the dirt for like a quarter mile leading to the target and splashing all around the target once lined up.

1. It has super short range and super low DPS. And unlike Small Laser, one need to constantly have face-time with the enemy in order to deal damage.

2. If you want to quote real life weapons as example, Autocannons are not pin point accurate either in real life, such as the M242 Bushmaster.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 June 2015 - 02:09 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Well we were talking about MGs... And I do think I kinda pointed out that ACs are not accurate in RL. In game thought the Auto cannons are treated like a self loading tank main gun. Which works.

[Nightshade24]

El Bandito, on 24 June 2015 - 02:05 AM, said:

super low DPS - MG

you what mate???

It has the highest DPS in game for it's tonnage...

2 IS MG (1T): 1.6 DPS
4 Cl MG (1T): 3.2 DPS
1 medium laser (1T): 1.28 DPS
1 small pulse laser (1T): 1.45 DPS
2 small laser (1T): 1.5 DPS

10 IS MG (5T): 8.0 DPS
20 Clan MG (5T) : 16.0 DPS
1 Large laser (5T): 2.12

and trust me, large pulse lasers, ppc's, etc all can not pass the dps...

Also all the larger ballistics ac 2, 5, 10, 20, LBX 10, guass rifle, etc have worst DPS to tonnage ratio... biggest DPS weapon is AC 20 with 5.0 for 14 tons... that's 28 MG's worth of tons and 56 clan mg's worth of tons...

Missiles have higher dps in few instances HOWEVER they spread very heavily and chug a lot on ammo.


Sorry to tell ya this, but I think MG's got the best DPS in game for there size... and if you look at 4B + mg mechs you see this quite well...


Edit: wnat to say that 0.5 ton weapons also do not come anywhere near 1 MG in terms of dps...

Edited by Nightshade24, 24 June 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[El Bandito]

Nightshade24, on 24 June 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

you what mate???

It has the highest DPS in game for it's tonnage...

2 IS MG (1T): 1.6 DPS
4 Cl MG (1T): 3.2 DPS
1 medium laser (1T): 1.28 DPS
1 small pulse laser (1T): 1.45 DPS
2 small laser (1T): 1.5 DPS

10 IS MG (5T): 8.0 DPS
20 Clan MG (5T) : 16.0 DPS
1 Large laser (5T): 2.12

and trust me, large pulse lasers, ppc's, etc all can not pass the dps...

Also all the larger ballistics ac 2, 5, 10, 20, LBX 10, guass rifle, etc have worst DPS to tonnage ratio... biggest DPS weapon is AC 20 with 5.0 for 14 tons... that's 28 MG's worth of tons and 56 clan mg's worth of tons...

Missiles have higher dps in few instances HOWEVER they spread very heavily and chug a lot on ammo.


Sorry to tell ya this, but I think MG's got the best DPS in game for there size... and if you look at 4B + mg mechs you see this quite well...


Edit: wnat to say that 0.5 ton weapons also do not come anywhere near 1 MG in terms of dps...

What the **** are you talking about?

A single MG has 0.8 DPS. An IS Small Laser has 1.0 DPS. (two SL amounts to 2.0 DPS, not 1.5) While both weighing 0.5 ton, the MG has to do face time all the way to do the 0.8 DPS, while the Small Laser can shoot all the damage then twist in a second--which makes SL better in defense as well as offense. Not to mention the MG CoF, which HEAVILY LOWERS MG accuracy (thus affecting its damage on a single component) beyond 100 meter range. Finally, Small Laser max range is 270 meters while MG max range is 240 meters.

Go look at Smurfy you ignorant boob.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 June 2015 - 07:03 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Can anyone rationally explain why PGI took 9 months or so (iirc) to raise PPC heat back up and implemented ghost heat instead of just raising heat back up at the beginning of the poptart era???

Also, is there a principle that is the exact opposite of KISS? PGI seems to love that, if there is such a thing.

[Nightshade24]

El Bandito, on 24 June 2015 - 06:44 AM, said:

What the **** are you talking about?

A single MG has 0.8 DPS. An IS Small Laser has 1.0 DPS. (two SL amounts to 2.0 DPS, not 1.5) While both weighing 0.5 ton, the MG has to do face time all the way to do the 0.8 DPS, while the Small Laser can shoot all the damage then twist in a second--which makes SL better in defense as well as offense. Not to mention the MG CoF, which HEAVILY LOWERS MG accuracy (thus affecting its damage on a single component) beyond 100 meter range. Finally, Small Laser max range is 270 meters while MG max range is 240 meters.

Go look at Smurfy you ignorant boob.

I have, and just to point this out: Machine guns do not have a cone of fire in game, it's pinpoint and it has no travel time either: it's hit scan. The 'spread' you see is just a graphical effect. Same with flamer. The weapon has no travel time as well due to being hit scan so you do not even need to lead your shot for a machine gun.
and you have to forgive me for the small laser to mg comparison part, I knew some of these off by heart but I forgot the small laser was buffed in he past month. I still imagine MG's being superior to small lasers in my head due to the fact MG's use to have a 1.0 dps and small lasers had less.

However this still remains true for clan machine guns which also out dps the single clan small laser to the 2 clan machine guns.

(also ignoring the abuses that can make MG's do 5-10 times more damage per second which should really be patched by the way).

however what is an ignorant boob? was that supposed to be an insult and if so; how? If I called you an incompetent appendix would that insult you or is that me randomly putting an organ and a noun together?

also face time is not a problem for quite a few builds despite what the meta says, and a light mech peforming like a stereotypical light mech (aka do damage when enemy is distracted by bigger guys) then that 'facetime' means nothing but free damage and kills. As the spider and locust do quite well in there MG configerations.

[Y E O N N E]

The MG has a cone of fire. Start firing from rubbing distance at any 'Mech's CT in Testing Grounds. While firing, back straight up and watch as other components start lighting up. If it didn't have a cone of fire, all shots would continue to strike the CT.

Also, the small laser has been 1.0 dps for at least a little over a year. The duration and cool-down have remained unchanged from 0.75 seconds and 2.25 seconds.

[FupDup]

The MG's CoF is particularly sad because it makes MG range quirks and modules pretty much pointless. Several mechs with stock MGs got generic ballistic range quirks for their MGs, but it doesn't help any since it's all splattered on multiple body parts.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 24 June 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

The MG's CoF is particularly sad because it makes MG range quirks and modules pretty much pointless. Several mechs with stock MGs got generic ballistic range quirks for their MGs, but it doesn't help any since it's all splattered on multiple body parts.

RIP MGs.

Preemptive nerfed when Clans were released.

[El Bandito]

Nightshade24, on 24 June 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

I have, and just to point this out: Machine guns do not have a cone of fire in game

They do, and you need to update your knowledge base.

Nightshade24, on 24 June 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

(also ignoring the abuses that can make MG's do 5-10 times more damage per second which should really be patched by the way).

Abuses? You need to elaborate.

Nightshade24, on 24 June 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

however what is an ignorant boob? was that supposed to be an insult and if so; how? If I called you an incompetent appendix would that insult you or is that me randomly putting an organ and a noun together?

Yes, it was supposed to be an insult, albeit a light one.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 24 June 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

They do, and you need to update your knowledge base.

It's sad people are not aware and don't keep up to date with "how things work" in MWO.

Sadly, this is always been a problem though... thanks PGI (poor NPE and weapon description).

It's actually worse when these people argue balance.

Edited by Deathlike, 24 June 2015 - 05:27 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Well hopefully we can get some news of faster changes in the town hall tomorrow.

[Nightshade24]

El Bandito, on 24 June 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

They do, and you need to update your knowledge base.



Abuses? You need to elaborate.



Yes, it was supposed to be an insult, albeit a light one.

first paragraph: well it must be a cone of fire of 0.0001 meters, because it is small enough to land 100% of it's shots on an atlas cockpit,, and there was no patch notes in the past 2 years stating they added a cone of fire to MG's...

Care to link a video of how MG's have a spread? Because no other sources say otherwise or in fact agree with my terms of pinpoint hitscan weapon.


second sentence:
from memory if you use a macro you can force more DPS to extremes from machine guns, even to the point of destroying and killing an atlas from the Front with only 4 machine guns in under a couple of seconds and this abuses is what some people mistaken for normal machine guns when it came to the nerf from 1.0 dps to 0.8 dps. The nerf was because people ranted to much about the abuses however it wasn't that known until recent:

atm I can't find any video besides this and this was post mg nerf
It may not seem that much until you look at how fast the ammo drains...

The reason I'm a bit edgey about linking this is because people in the past who tried to put this to pgi's attention were often removed. I a mnot sure why... maybe they didn't know the difference between a thread teaching people how to abuse the game or a thread putting it to PGI's attention. Either way it's present.

I'll have to mention now that the jagermech was around in the same time period for 1.0 and 0.8 machine guns which can do builds of 2 large pulse lasers and 6 machine guns... gruesome. I wounder if this is fixed yet (I hope it is. then we can un-nerf machine guns and flamers...)



third sentence: Um... I think in this context I will take it more as a compliment? idk... He man doesn't offend me in any way...

[Mcgral18]

Nightshade24, on 24 June 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

first paragraph: well it must be a cone of fire of 0.0001 meters, because it is small enough to land 100% of it's shots on an atlas cockpit,, and there was no patch notes in the past 2 years stating they added a cone of fire to MG's...

Care to link a video of how MG's have a spread? Because no other sources say otherwise or in fact agree with my terms of pinpoint hitscan weapon.

They are a laser with a -1 duration and a CoF of 3M (1.5 "Spread")

Weapon faction="InnerSphere" HardpointAliases="Ballistic,MachineGun,ISMachineGun" name="MachineGun" id="1024">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\MachineGun.dds" descTag="@MachineGun_desc" nameTag="@MachineGun"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0" speed="100" lifetime="1.0" duration="-1.0" tons="0.5" maxRange="240.0" longRange="120.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="1" ammoType="MachineGunAmmo" cooldown="0.0" heat="0.0" impulse="0.001" heatdamage="0" damage="0.08" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Ballistic" slots="1" Health="10" spread="1.5" maxheight="0" critChanceIncrease="0.06,0.03,0.01" critDamMult="9.0" rof="10.0"/>

[El Bandito]

Nightshade24, on 24 June 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

first paragraph: well it must be a cone of fire of 0.0001 meters, because it is small enough to land 100% of it's shots on an atlas cockpit,, and there was no patch notes in the past 2 years stating they added a cone of fire to MG's...

Care to link a video of how MG's have a spread? Because no other sources say otherwise or in fact agree with my terms of pinpoint hitscan weapon.

Ah, the lengths I must go for education... you could have just tested it yourself.



As you can see, the MG cone of fire makes it unreliable beyond 100 meters, and trying to put 100% of the shot into the stationary Atlas's eye is impossible at such range.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 June 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[Nightshade24]

El Bandito, on 24 June 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

Ah, the lengths I must go for education... you could have just tested it yourself.

stupid ninja patches...

... anyway, thanks for the slap in the face. I will go cry in a corner now and reflect on how there was a glitch in the matrix and everything I thought I knew and understood... next thing you will tell me is the atlas cockpit is the nose and not the eye ;~;

[XX Sulla XX]

Looks like some JJ changes incoming.




Paul_Inouye ‏@Paul_Inouye
... opens toolbox... grabs 40mm socket... approaches Class I jump jet...