102 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

LordBraxton, on 23 June 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

I can master a tank in Warthunder in one evening. You can master all of the tier 1 tanks in a single day. It would take me weeks to grind out, equip, and master a single IS heavy.

Those are **** tanks that don't really compete at higher levels of play.

I still don't have any tier 5 tanks in that game after several years of on and off again playing.

[Revis Volek]

PKNecron, on 23 June 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

The problem always boils down to PGI making money, and the fact that PGI can ONLY make money selling mechs is telling. It says that the game outside of the matches is VERY thin. The is almost no progression or customization outside of camo packs. There is no ability to specialize in a given weapon system or chassis. The game needs more stuff to sell outside of buying mechs. Or if not, it needs more gameplay options to keep players coming back.

Frankly the 3 mechs to master will KILL this game flat if it ever hits Steam. People there will NOT accept paywalls or Pay to win mechanics in their games. Just look at the reviews for The Hunter... a free to play game the requires you to buy a membership in order to hunt anything more than one species of deer. The game itself is a lot of fun, but the reviews have destroyed any chance it had because of the paywall most of the content is locked behind. This game will fair no better.

What you just wrote about is in NO WAY even close to the experince here at this game....You cannot only hunt Spiders in this game.

You have EVERYTHING open to you the only REAL PAY WALL is mech bays. If you want more mechs you have to get them and PGI has lessened that strangle hold they had on MC latley as they have been given it away at events and in CW as rewards.

So you can literally have viable mechs, mech bays, MC currency and Premium Time for FREE in this game....The Hunter doesn't seem to offer even half of that.

[CygnusX7]

There are plenty of mechs I only have one of and I do quite well with them.

[Red Lynx]

What if PGI were to switch the mastery requirement of 3 in the weight class and the elite requirement of 3 of a given mech. This would allow players to get the benefits of the x2 elite without having to by 3 mechs. If you only had one mech you still could be 95% effective any people who have been in the game for years. Also if you can't afford 3 mechs you probably can't afford to fill extra module slot.

[CDLord HHGD]

Red Lynx, on 23 June 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

What if PGI were to switch the mastery requirement of 3 in the weight class and the elite requirement of 3 of a given mech. This would allow players to get the benefits of the x2 elite without having to by 3 mechs. If you only had one mech you still could be 95% effective any people who have been in the game for years. Also if you can't afford 3 mechs you probably can't afford to fill extra module slot.

Not sure if I misunderstood you. I was quite confused until I tested and figured it out. No intention of contradicting you or whatnot but here's the formula:

Basic: 3 variants of the chassis opens up the elite tier.
Elite & Master: 3 chassis of the three weight class.

I tested by getting basics on three variants then selling all but one variant and I am able to continue on (this is the process I use now).

Edited by cdlord, 23 June 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

cdlord, on 23 June 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Not sure if I misunderstood you. I was quite confused until I tested and figured it out. No intention of contradicting you or whatnot but here's the formula:

Basic: 3 variants of the chassis opens up the elite tier.
Elite & Master: 3 chassis of the three weight class.

I tested by getting basics on three variants then selling all but one variant and I am able to continue on (this is the process I use now).

Honestly, I'm not sure if it works that way for the FIRST Mech in a weight Class that you get Master on. I know that I only need Basics in 3 variants to open up Elite and I only need Elite on a single variant to get Master, but I've had Master in all the weight classes since CB, so...

I THINK you need Basics on 3 and Elites on 3 for the FIRST Mech in a weight Class? Can anyone confirm or deny that?

Originally it was 3 each for Basic and Elite to open Master per Mech, but they did change it 3 each for first Mech in Class, after that 3xbasic and you could elite/master 1, Is that still how it works or did they make it 3x Basic and Elite/Master now?

[ThirtyOughtSix]

Agree/Diasgree. I would:

Move speed tweak and fast fire to basic, move heat capacity and arm convergence to elite
Take away 3 mechs to unlock elite
Keep 3 mechs to master
Make the first 5 matches of every newly bought mech 2x XP

With speed tweak and fast fire moved down there is less emphasis on elite and without the need for 3 mechs it makes having 1 variant plausible, unless you really really needed the extra module slot because it's your favorite mech. The current system makes 1 variant very iffy.

[Black Arachne]

It was a never good system and needs to be done away with.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Mystere, on 23 June 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

Building a game to make life easy for the new or 100% free player will just spell doom for the game if that is all you are asking for. So better also suggest money-making ideas that will guarantee more income for PGI. Not doing so will just kill the game even faster. PGI employees all have mouths to feed.

That is the hard truth.

This is indeed true. There are however games that very successfully combine real-money items with the F2P model in a way that does not introduce the mechanic used in MWO which unfortunately is an obvious ploy to encourage players to spend MC to purchase mechs.

Take Path of Exile for example: every single one of the items available for purchase with real money is a cosmetic item that has zero impact on game play.

[Revis Volek]

Sir Wulfrick, on 23 June 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

This is indeed true. There are however games that very successfully combine real-money items with the F2P model in a way that does not introduce the mechanic used in MWO which unfortunately is an obvious ploy to encourage players to spend MC to purchase mechs.

Take Path of Exile for example: every single one of the items available for purchase with real money is a cosmetic item that has zero impact on game play.

PoE is not really comparable....and it just as grindy to get a good character and the good items in the game if not more so then this one. At least in this game its a different drop if i wanna farm stuff in PoE i just run docks in merciliess which is so mundane i fall asleep at the keyboard.

The only thing PoE has going for it is it got a random generated maps and the instance feature...which keeps you playing fast or the area resets. BUt there is still a hell of a grind in that game....just because cosmetics are the only pay item (which they aren't) doesn't mean its great.

Not to mention over 50% of what most people buy with MC is also cosmetic and has no effect on gameplay all other items are obtainable for free much like POE.

The only things that are NOT are HERO mechs which are not the best of their class or even chassis most the time (other the that freaking OP huggin) so they are nothing more they are essentially a cosmetic purchase as well since they all have unique camo and such.

But again, not really comparable because PoE doesn't have anything like this nor does it even sell characters, they are free and only one is even needed to complete the game.

[Bill Lumbar]

Almond Brown, on 23 June 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

Just this past Event, PGI GAVE AWAY 23 Billion C-Bills and 3.9 Million MC. Plus a ton of other stuff. Where were all those folks who wanted and need more money, and stuff, and for FREE.

Oh Right! They would have to actually PLAY MWO to get that... Bad PGI for making them play to get stuff... bad PGI

Lol... I was playing as much as I could and only was able to complete 60 of the 100 cool off rewards. I didn't have the time to drop in CW and get the other 40. This was on my IS account only, I can't even remember the last time I have signed in and played on my Clan account. I played more this last week then I have in several months.... The grind is just to much.

Lets just figure a 10 min average per match, at 60 matches that is around 600+ minutes played during this last week, however, I had a few games I didn't get the points in. That is 10+ hours put in over the course of around 4 days for me, i didn't have time to play on the other days, including all day Sunday. Went to a water park for my sons 7th b-day. Needless to say, the gaming chair and computer didn't come with me.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 23 June 2015 - 01:47 PM.

[PowerKill Necron]

DarthRevis, on 23 June 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

What you just wrote about is in NO WAY even close to the experince here at this game....You cannot only hunt Spiders in this game.

You have EVERYTHING open to you the only REAL PAY WALL is mech bays. If you want more mechs you have to get them and PGI has lessened that strangle hold they had on MC latley as they have been given it away at events and in CW as rewards.

So you can literally have viable mechs, mech bays, MC currency and Premium Time for FREE in this game....The Hunter doesn't seem to offer even half of that.

Yes, it is. I can't elite mech without buying at least 3 of them. The grind for 3 mechs, even ****** IS mechs is horrible. I am not great, and by my rough calculations, it would take me 30 to 50+ games on average to buy one low-end IS mech. That's not even equipped, just the mech. SO that's a few weeks of play for me just to elite the one mech I want. I can speed it up with MC, but I see that as a paywall. And the hunter's sub in only 4 dollars a month... I would gladly pay that to PGI to be able to elite a mech without having to buy two others.

[Malleus011]

The three mech system also has nothing whatsoever to do with Battletech; it's not a thing Mechwarriors in the lore do (or ever did); it's just a tacked-on afterthought PGI added.

There are plenty of interesting and lore-based mechanisms to both encourage players to specialize their pilots and spend money.

Just one example - all players can 'master' the skill tree (and we need an actual tree) for a given 'mech. Allow plays who spend a small amount of real money to unlock that mastery immediately (or much faster); and give them a cockpit item and game badge for the 'war college' they attended. Lots of war colleges exist in the lore, and many have badges and signature items. Slang amore, the Nagelring, NAIS, etc - some players would pay a small fee just to have the prestige of their faction's school.

Of course, it would help if they also included this lore in the game, instead of just expecting Sarna to carry the load.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I don't recall when/where, exactly (a recent Town Hall?) but I'm fairly sure that PGI recently stated they intend to finally get around to redoing the skill system sometime this year. What, exactly, that means is up to interperetation, but at least that means it's on the radar.

[Bill Lumbar]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 23 June 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

I don't recall when/where, exactly (a recent Town Hall?) but I'm fairly sure that PGI recently stated they intend to finally get around to redoing the skill system sometime this year. What, exactly, that means is up to interperetation, but at least that means it's on the radar.

Well then, if its on the Radar, that means its "coming soon tm" sorry I couldn't help myself

I do have to give PGI some credit though...its nice to see the "narced" red light come on in the hud here in the last week when you get narced. I was waiting for that one for awhile!

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 23 June 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[Flak Kannon]

I like the system the way it is.

It is not unreasonable to expect people to actually PLAY the game to EARN the end game content of Modules, and FULLY MASTERED mech chassi'

Nad if they want it faster, then spend real money. No one says they have to have fully mastered chassi' to be competitive. I am proof of that. I can make mechs that are fully basic, un- unlocked chassis perform.

Do they perform better with double basics? Yes. But you can EARN that by playing the game. It is not a pay to win scenario. A Raven 3L is still a good mech, whether or not it's unlocked.

Are Clan mechs expensive? Yep.

[Pjwned]

Rhazien, on 23 June 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

Err what? The grind in MWO is a joke compared to most other F2P games...

"Less bad" does not mean "is not bad."

Mystere, on 23 June 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

Building a game to make life easy for the new or 100% free player will just spell doom for the game if that is all you are asking for. So better also suggest money-making ideas that will guarantee more income for PGI. Not doing so will just kill the game even faster. PGI employees all have mouths to feed.

That is the hard truth.

If there is an established problem of players (both new and old) not paying money because they'll just extend their middle finger in response to having their arm twisted, then the current business model is obviously not working for everybody.

DarthRevis, on 23 June 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

Actually you spending LESS money is bad for the game....if they dont make money the servers shut down. This is Free to play only because others pay your way. If you spend less on mechs and equipment you will spend less on MC. less on mech packs, less time in game and less money to cut down the grind and PGI will end up being the losers while we win but then they close the servers.

This assumes that everybody will eventually give in and pay cash in response to dealing with the shitfest grind, and that changing it will definitely result in the game receiving less money or even so much less money that the game would shut down.

The former is absolutely not true, and just because your consumer standards are that of a weak-kneed little ***** that doesn't mean everybody else will shovel tons of money into PGI's pockets to skip past the shitfest grind a bit faster.

The latter could be true possibly, but considering that people withhold their money because of PGI's business practices, I don't see any good reason to believe that reducing the shitfest grind would result in the game making less money.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 June 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Pjwned]

Flak Kannon, on 23 June 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

I like the system the way it is.

It is not unreasonable to expect people to actually PLAY the game to EARN the end game content of Modules, and FULLY MASTERED mech chassi'

Nad if they want it faster, then spend real money. No one says they have to have fully mastered chassi' to be competitive. I am proof of that. I can make mechs that are fully basic, un- unlocked chassis perform.

Do they perform better with double basics? Yes. But you can EARN that by playing the game. It is not a pay to win scenario. A Raven 3L is still a good mech, whether or not it's unlocked.

Are Clan mechs expensive? Yep.

In a game where everything you do is PvP content, especially when said PvP content is unpolished and lacking, then it really stands out a lot when you're at a competitive disadvantage just because you didn't grind as long as somebody else.

Mastered mechs and modules are "endgame content" only if you're a chump.

Lugh, on 23 June 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

They should not be spending effort to keep you. They may wish to find better ways to get you to spend money.
But that's it. You can't compete without spending a smallish amount of money for mechbays?' too bad.

A player that quits in frustration is not only not spending money, it also throws any chance out the window that they will have nice things to say about the game to their friends or whoever else.

Claiming that a company should not spend effort to retain customers is ridiculously idiotic.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 June 2015 - 03:52 PM.

[Kushko]

Pjwned, on 23 June 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

A player that quits in frustration is not only not spending money, it also throws any chance out the window that they will have nice things to say about the game to their friends or whoever else.

Claiming that a company should not spend effort to retain customers is ridiculously idiotic.

Agreed. Happy new costumers play the game more (which is good for everyone since it means shorter and better queues) and potentially even spend money down the road. I reckon there are way way way more new players that quit after they realized the shiny new mech they just got wont be complete until they get 2 more of the same mech, than there are players that hit this "paywall" mechanic and spend money to get around it (not to mention the disaster that would follow if the current system stayed for the steam release). I know none of my friends even considered paying, and some of them have spent thousands on other games (Star Citizen, Dota, Eve, WoW).

The buy 3 to master 1 system is not actual progression but a bottleneck grind. The problem isnt how long it takes, but its lack of fun/meaningful progression. You dont get something new and exciting for the time or money you put in to it, you get something you already have. Only in a few cases of battlemechs are the variants actually different enough to feel like you are playing a new mech (catapult K2 for example).

A happy costumer is more likely to open up his wallet, thats a fact and anyone who thinks arm twisting is a better way is just horribly wrong.

And as for people who think anyone who doesnt pay to play the game might just as well leave...im seriously shocked speechless by your narrow mindedness.

Edited by Kushko, 23 June 2015 - 08:51 PM.

[Mycrus]

Kushko, on 23 June 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

Its been said many times and it will be said many times more until we get trough to PGI. The current buy 3 to master 1 system is horrible. Its not really a big deal for veteran players who have been playing for years but a new player (just recently had a friend experience this) coming in to the game buying their first mech and feeling a sense of accomplishment only to be told he has to buy 2 more variants of the same mech if he really wants to be competitive instead of buying a brand new chassis and keeping the fun and sense of progression going...well thats just soul sucking.

Something needs to change if this game ever wants proper new player retention especially when it launches on steam, because the current 3 mech system alone will just devastate all that untapped potential of new people coming in to the game.

So what to do? I suggest letting anyone who owns the 1 mech to be able to skill up all the way to master skill level with no restrictions (we could also mention the skill system is quite bad, with skills that apparently do nothing that are still in there even after 2 years, but that is a theme for another topic). Instead use the "buy and master 3 of the same mech chassis" for non competitive bonuses like a permanent 10% cbill bonus on any mech of that chassis, or some cosmetic stuff like a "hey look, i mastered this chassis so i get this skin" type of thing. With the release of CW we have even more incentive to buy more variants of the same chassis to bring inside our dropship. The buy 3 to master 1 is outdated and not needed anymore (actually in my opinion it was never needed, but thats debatable).

Speed boost, faster rate of fire, heat efficiency and other competitive bonuses SHOULD NOT be tied in to the 3 mech mechanic as they currently are and instead should be replaced with economic and/or cosmetic bonuses.

Thanks for reading. I hope you agree, if not please add your own suggestions and ideas.

*edit* Also my post wasnt meant to imply that PGI is greedy or that the 3 mech mechanics is a symptom of greed. Anyone can just spend more time and get 3 mechs to master, its not really a big deal (granted you might want to buy a mechlab or two but those are cheaper than 1 beer so i dont feel bad for people who complain about that). My point is that the mechanic is not fun and we play games for fun. And on top of that it brings almost nothing if not even a negative impact of PGIs ability to monetize their game.

Such is life in korea mmo grind fests...