121 replies to this topic

[Soy]

Just follow along, plox briefly suspend outside context for this thought experiment.

Has poptarting been nerfed.

If yes,

Has population gone down.

If yes,

Would you attribute population trend to the established notion that games have a bell curve of popularity, and this game already "peaked" back at launch like a lot of games?

If no (or not entirely),

Then would it be a stretch to say that perhaps poptarting was a positive thing for the game?

If no,

Would you try and make an argument with a straight face that poptarting itself made population go down?

If yes,

Why haven't these people returned?

---

Think about it. People cry a lot and crusade quite a bit for things on their agendas with this game. And I find it interesting how the more the cries and loudspeakers have got what they wanted, the game itself has not gained any popularity as a result of such changes.

So in other words... I think poptarting actually made this game more popular than it would have been otherwise. By poptarting I mean anything, it's a placeholder. This is a philosophical thing it's obviously not all about poptarting or population; now go full context and simmer for a moment in thought.

Your turn nerds, break down the argument, marinate on things, take a pot shot from the rafters like a wannabe Statler/Waldorf - geaux!

Edited by Soy, 23 June 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

In before the Flames start,
i think their are allot of this that were removed from this game at the beginning,
i think that PGI is slowly trying to bring allot of those things back and have been doing well,
since their Split from IGP we have seen allot of progress, im willing to hope abit,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 23 June 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[Stonefalcon]

I quit cause of poptarting, made a suggestion, it got implemented, I came back then bought the clan wave 1 pack and wave 3 pack.

[LordBraxton]

Sometimes when people get a bad taste in their mouth and move on, they never think to check back, much less re-download the game and see it themselves.

I never saw pop-tarting as a huge problem after shake was introduced. They just needed to add a second more of shake after you release.

IDK why the killed JJs.

[Soy]

LordBraxton, on 23 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

Sometimes when people get a bad taste in their mouth and move on, they never think to check back, much less re-download the game and see it themselves.

I never saw pop-tarting as a huge problem after shake was introduced. They just needed to add a second more of shake after you release.

IDK why the killed JJs.

Nice food for thought; I rarely go back to play a game that "sucked" the first time.

[Hellcat420]

Soy, on 23 June 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Just follow along, plox briefly suspend outside context for this thought experiment.

Has poptarting been nerfed.

If yes,

Has population gone down.

If yes,

Would you attribute population trend to the established notion that games have a bell curve of popularity, and this game already "peaked" back at launch like a lot of games?

If no (or not entirely),

Then would it be a stretch to say that perhaps poptarting was a positive thing for the game?

If no,

Would you try and make an argument with a straight face that poptarting itself made population go down?

If yes,

Why haven't these people returned?

---

Think about it. People cry a lot and crusade quite a bit for things on their agendas with this game. And I find it interesting how the more the cries and loudspeakers have got what they wanted, the game itself has not gained any popularity as a result of such changes.

So in other words... I think poptarting actually made this game more popular than it would have been otherwise. By poptarting I mean anything, it's a placeholder. This is a philosophical thing it's obviously not all about poptarting or population; now go full context and simmer for a moment in thought.

Your turn nerds, break down the argument, marinate on things, take a pot shot from the rafters like a wannabe Statler/Waldorf - geaux!

The reason the population went down and stayed down is because this is a shell ofa game an 95% of the "content" added to this minimum viable product are overpriced cashgrab mechpacks

[Soy]

Thanks for that dynamite salt insight; noted.

[cSand]

So, I played a bunch of games with you last night Soy, both winning and losing but the one deciding factor in all those 4 or 5 matches was the comp guys in smoke jaguar or whatever they were from

basically, 5 or 6 huge meta builds, bunch of dual gauss and laser vomit etc, and they mopped the floor each time. I got hit with 4 gauss at one time and blew up instantly (my QKD cannot take that much to the back torso, lol). My fault, I ran into the fray and then tried to run out when I see what a mistake I made But if you make a mistake like that they are gonna capitalize instantly


The same guys, back when poptarting was a thing, would have used that current meta to mop the floor.


And when the current one is nerfed, they will move to the next one because that is the nature of that type of player. Go for the easiest, most efficient builds so you can win as much as possible. Not my thing, but a valid way to do things nonetheless.

So this happens, and people cry about being mopped by these kinda guys, cause let's face it, this is why people complain, because they got killed. So they get killed by whoever using the current trendy weapons, they see the builds being used and the weapons, they want it to be nerfed. So PGI eventually listens and nerfs the gear.

This actually doesn't hurt the powergamer meta crowd, in fact it isn't as much to do with the weapons as it is the fact that when 5 or 6 organized players focus 1 guy, that guy is dead no matter what the weapons are.

So in reality, whining and complaining for nerfs, as we can see here with the prime example of the jumpjet nerfs, doesn't stop people from getting their asses handed to them by power gamers. It just hurts every normal (see - the majority) player, because their gear gets worse.


Would it have made the game more popular allowing poptarting... hmm maybe. But looking at the bigger picutre... the trend of nerfing the gear really doesn't stop the meta crowd from mopping up - the manner of the mopping up just changes but the end result is the same.

It just overall makes the gear crappier for everyone. And if anything it's certainly not helping the game, IMO

Edited by cSand, 23 June 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[Hellcat420]

Soy, on 23 June 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Thanks for that dynamite salt insight; noted.

It's no salt, its what I've seen since open beta started. I'm not a rabid fanboy who is gonna sugarcoat everything and pretend the development pace is glacier speed, when its actually being lapped by the glaciers. They have pulled in a metric ton of money but there isn't much game to show for it.

Edited by Hellcat420, 23 June 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[Koniks]

I imagine most of the player exodus happened before most of last year's balance changes, poptart nerfing, and introduction of Clans. I wasn't here for it but I bet the game peaked in Open Beta. I didn't even play at "launch." I found the game because I remembered that 3 or 4 years ago there was some pub about a new MW being in development and did a websearch. Not because I saw an ad.

I think the grind, opaque mechanics, high learning curve, bad tutorials, shallow game modes, and deep-end of the pool matchmaking create a poor new player experience. I bet those hurt player retention a lot. I'd bet most players left before last spring's balance changes and the introduction of Clans unless they were diehard BT fans and really wanted their Mad Cat.

I do think poptarting contributed to that. But because there was 1 single dominant style of play to rule them all, not because poptarts themselves were the problem. Poptarts had no legit counter beside more poptarts. But yes, brawls are more fun for new players and casuals.

The meta is healthier now, though still not particularly diverse. I'd like to see reasonable-strength poptarting come back because more types of game play is better than fewer.

ETA: the way the game's monetized (cost of everything other than mechbays, paywalls temporary or not, needing to buy MC before buying product, etc.) is also a turn off. This thing's built like a Premium F2P and it's not.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[Mystere]

LordBraxton, on 23 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

IDK why the killed JJs.

People cried, JJs died.

[cSand]

Mystere, on 23 June 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

People cried, JJs died.

Well, I dunno if they're dead

but some chassis need the JJ's as the main selling point... say the Victor or Highlander. They are supposed to be able to maneuver and that kinda balances out the hardpoints (or lack of, hah). So a blanket nerf was probably not the best route

[InspectorG]

A. MWO is a niche product.
B. it has a steep learning curve...and the meta changes.

Most newbs dont understand that MWO is a team game 12 v 12 in a pug. And the TEAM who FOCUSES MOST FIRE will pull ahead.Comps understand this and know how to deal with it. Newbs and most casuals think of it like a FPS with respawns - ignorant but not unjustified.

Solo drop is different from Group and CW despite the similarity between objectives(more on that later...). Solo is more about riding the chaos and taking advantage of Bads vs Bads.

But wait there is more...

Limited objectives and little Role warfare stymie and growth in meta/styles of play.
Damage done and mitigating return damage in the smallest window(s) of time is it. That simple.
There are objectives but teams can always opt to brawl instead and win that route and the payout for it makes it the lowest common denominator.

Now was Poptarting the big bad bogeyman? No, all it did was up the skill requirement to compete. Notice i said compete and not play.

I couldnt tell you the population numbers/trends before/during/after the poptarting. I started playing at the tail end of poptarting and felt it a bit but was too green to understand.

As for now, all we know is:
PGI is better off without IGP.
PGI is a small company. I dont know their financials or market share.
The product is progressing...slowly.
MWO is a unique game that appears a FPS to a newb. But it isnt, perhaps advertising needs to address that?
MWO has no tutorial(in depth), no training, no coaching unless a newb joins a unit-and that isnt broadly advertised, and is sink or swim as far as MM(i personally dont mind - ive been beat up by pro fighters before MWO aint sh*t in comparison)

Minimally viable? IMO, i give more credit to PGI but i CAN understand how many feel this.
PGI could mend many fences by interacting with the base and implementing their ideas(NOT BASED PURELY ON POPULARITY)

The most frustration comes from what the base ENVISIONS what MWO could be. But i would guess most think its easier done than said...

So back to the OP...too many variables to conclude if poptarting affected population. Im sure it did somehow...but i dont know how to define just how.

MWO is fun enough for me, for now. I spend some $ on it, but not a whole lot.
Ill ride it till its no longer fun, just like i did with PSO/PSO2.
it gets boring, im out, no hard feelings. Venom fixes nothing and money spent cant be regained regardless.

Mystere, on 23 June 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

People cried, JJs died.

Hover-round!!!™

[Soy]

cSand, on 23 June 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

So, I played a bunch of games with you last night Soy, both winning and losing but the one deciding factor in all those 4 or 5 matches was the comp guys in smoke jaguar or whatever they were from

basically, 5 or 6 huge meta builds, bunch of dual gauss and laser vomit etc, and they mopped the floor each time. I got hit with 4 gauss at one time and blew up instantly (my QKD cannot take that much to the back torso, lol). My fault, I ran into the fray and then tried to run out when I see what a mistake I made But if you make a mistake like that they are gonna capitalize instantly


The same guys, back when poptarting was a thing, would have used that current meta to mop the floor.

Eh... that was just a brief exercise for End Crescendo - he hadn't played in a couple months and wanted to 2 man group queue in a unbasic'd new mech.

I was grinding a Mist Lynx and bored out of my mind and decided to humor him. I dunno what he expected after seeing a 6 man of tryhards in min/max builds.

Btw no disrespect to that prem and group, good dudes good players, but they're same kids who got dunked on during poptarting heyday. They know.

After 4 rounds or so of that End got annoyed enough for me to say "are we done yet?"

Btw this has nothing to do at all with the discussion, but since you were on this............

[One Medic Army]

I left because poptarting. Now I'm back because no poptarting.

Question: did the others who leave ever get told that it was removed? Do they still have any inclination to play?

Also poptarting isn't dead, it's just no longer the strongest tactic.

[edit] to be clear, I left because poptarting itself was fairly boring, and was the main effective tactic in the normal queue. I prefer when there are multiple effective tactics (right now it's peeking, but there's side, hill, and twist, plus DPS is viable as seen by direwolf dragon and hugnin).

Edited by One Medic Army, 23 June 2015 - 04:11 PM.

[Soy]

One Medic Army, on 23 June 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

I left because poptarting. Now I'm back because no poptarting.

Question: did the others who leave ever get told that it was removed? Do they still have any inclination to play?

Also poptarting isn't dead, it's just no longer the strongest tactic.

Deep question of marketing. How can we even reach those guys? Where are they, are they even on their comps still tryin to get MWLL to work or did they set it on fire and move into the hobby shop's basement to be closer to all the tabletop action. Wake up and hear the dicerolls - Mountain Dew in your cup!

[One Medic Army]

Soy, on 23 June 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Deep question of marketing. How can we even reach those guys? Where are they, are they even on their comps still tryin to get MWLL to work or did they set it on fire and move into the hobby shop's basement to be closer to all the tabletop action. Wake up and hear the dicerolls - Mountain Dew in your cup!

Well, the ones I know I've contacted through out of game channels. One was so disgusted abut MWO balance when he left he's vowed never to return unless the game implements cone of fire to force damage spread.

I think the best way is probably via word-of-mouth from people who are currently playing.

[Soy]

One Medic Army, on 23 June 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Well, the ones I know I've contacted through out of game channels......
[...]
...I think the best way is probably via word-of-mouth from people who are currently playing.

Mhm, as we all turn our eyes to the lumbering beast on the horizon, with whispers on the wind carrying its name... "Steam".

Edited by Soy, 23 June 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

I don't know that the population truly dipped because of poptarting.

It's more likely dipping due to overnerfing or more succinctly the inability to balance properly.

I mean... talking about Hoverjets™ is a thing, and a reminder of how bad our Highlander overlords can't fly with 10 tons of JJs (on a Heavy Metal only, but you get the idea).

The Executioner reminds me of this all the time unfortunately.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 June 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[Soy]

Deathlike, on 23 June 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

I don't know that the population truly dipped because of poptarting.

It's more likely dipping due to overnerfing

I respect that semantical supposition.