34 replies to this topic

[Boris The Spider]

PGI's problem is they are a hitscan weapon, and you only need a slight change to move a hitscan weapon from garbage to OP.. PGI tend to balance with a sledgehammer. Change the heat dynamic and you make them stunlock, increase the crit chance too high and you start insta-gibbing people. Honestly, they just need a slight tweak to either.

[Badgerthej]

true, but they dont need to tweak critting or the upper limits of the overheat, jsut reduce the bloody buildup on the firing mech, we have massive warmachines firing plasma and lightning and they overheat because of a flame thrower......little sense there like.

[Monkey Lover]

Ragtag soldier, on 24 June 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

yeah, but this ALSO means you can't pile on flamers to punish mechs boating lasers by pushing their heat scale over when teh alpha. the broken heat scaling makes them useless for punishing energy-based builds. and since they don't do much damage either, whay use 'em?

I have only used them to blind people when brawling.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

I think you can sell flamers for 10k cbills, that's probably their most effective use at this point. PGI BUFF PLOX

[0rionsbane]

re work. really not necessary just make the dam things not exponentially generate heat and then they are a niche weapon with 90 m range that can heat your target up but not shut him down and likely do a tiny bit of damage.

[Boris The Spider]

Badgerthej, on 24 June 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

true, but they dont need to tweak critting or the upper limits of the overheat, jsut reduce the bloody buildup on the firing mech, we have massive warmachines firing plasma and lightning and they overheat because of a flame thrower......little sense there like.

8 seconds, 0 heat generation on my test with 2 flamers, that Stalker on the youtube vid with one flamer lasts 45 seconds before it starts generating heat. As I said in my original post, flamers generate practically no heat on the firing 'mech, they just slow down your cooling, thats what got you, you either fired them too long, overheated with your primary weapon or rode your heatbar to high and it was your engine throttle+environment that got you... that or clan flamers work different, not sure about that though.

For me, an ever so slight increase in the speed that it applies heat to the target and an increased chance of critting ammo, slight chance of critting equipment, but zero for the engine... if it did that for engines the hit-scan nature of the weapon would lead to you insta-gibbing anybody with a hole in their armour.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 24 June 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Boris The Spider, on 24 June 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

8 seconds, 0 heat generation on my test with 2 flamers, that Stalker on the youtube vid with one flamer lasts 45 seconds before it starts generating heat. As I said in my original post, flamers generate practically no heat on the firing 'mech, they just slow down your cooling, thats what got you, you either fired them too long, overheated with your primary weapon or rode your heatbar to high and it was your engine throttle+environment that got you... that or clan flamers work different, not sure about that though.

For me, an ever so slight increase in the speed that it applies heat to the target and an increased chance of critting ammo, slight chance of critting equipment, but zero for the engine... if it did that for engines the hit-scan nature of the weapon would lead to you insta-gibbing anybody with a hole in their armour.

You can't control how things crit, with the current code.


Engines crits also don't do anything, aside from sending 15% of crit damage back into the IS. They're like Actuators, they take crits, can be destroyed...but nothing actually happens when they get crit.

Edited by Mcgral18, 24 June 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[Boris The Spider]

Then it would probably be the buff it needs then Mcgral. It makes a lot of sense that a flamer would do very little damage to a mech that is designed to operate, underwater, in space, on sun scorched, lava soaked hell holes. But getting fire in with the bits and pieces, wires, motors and explody ammo would probably be a bad thing.

[Ovion]

Boris The Spider, on 24 June 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

Not sure how you managed to shut yourself down, flamers generate no heat unless you fire them for more than 4 seconds, probably linking them with the MG's? They do however prevent you cooling off, roughly half’s the cool down speed when used in my experience.

This is false.

I did some... rudimentary science a while back to test flamers.
This was the result:

Spoiler

Using: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...28546ed48806bfa
29 Heatsinks

Crimson Straight (Heat Neutral):
Firing at Front Center Torso of Spider SDR-5D ( http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=52&l=stock =36HP ) at 60 Meters
Test 01: 1 Flamer, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @23s, Spider Death @53s, Explode @56s
Test 02: 2 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @12s, Spider Death @24s, Explode @39s
Test 03: 3 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @9s, Spider Death @17s, Explode @32s
Test 04: 4 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @2s, Spider Death @12s, Explode @22s
Test 05: 5 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @10s, Explode @22s
Test 06: 6 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @9s, Explode @20s

Test 07: 1 group of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @50s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 08: 2 groups of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @49s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 09: 3 groups of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @48s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 10: (-2 Heatsinks, +2 Flamers) 4 groups of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @23s, Explode N/A, End @120s

Test 11: 1 group of 3 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @49s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 12: 2 groups of 3 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise 42, Spider Death @25s, Explode 80s

Using: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9e4a9d2de8e904f
26 Heatsinks

Crimson Straight (Heat Neutral):
Firing at Front Center Torso of Spider SDR-5D ( http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=52&l=stock =36HP ) at 60 Meters
Test 01: 1 Flamer, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @20s, Spider Death @49s, Explode @58s
Test 02: 2 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @11s, Spider Death @24s, Explode @35s
Test 03: 3 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @4s, Spider Death @17s, Explode @29s
Test 04: 4 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @1s, Spider Death @13s, Explode @23s
Test 05: 5 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @10s, Explode @22s
Test 06: 6 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @9s, Explode @19s
Test 07: 7 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @7s, Explode @17s
Test 08: 8 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @6s, Explode @15s
Test 09: 9 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @5s, Explode @13s

Test 10: 1 group of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @48s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 11: 2 groups of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @24s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 12: 3 groups of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise @5s, Spider Death @18s, Explode N/A, End @120s @41% heat
Test 13: 4 groups of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise @2s, Spider Death @12s, Explode @55s

Test 14: 1 group of 3 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @48s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 15: 2 groups of 3 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @24s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 16: 3 groups of 3 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise @3s, Spider Death @18s, Explode N/A, End @120s @42% heat

Test 17: 2 Flamers, set to 2 groups of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @48s, Explode N/A, End @120s
Test 18: 2 Flamers, set to 3 groups of 2 Flamers, Chain Fire - Heat Rise N/A, Spider Death @48s, Explode N/A, End @120s

Test 19: 2 groups of 4 Flamers, Manual Burst Fire - Heat Rise @2s, Spider Death @12s, Explode @60s

Terra Therma (Heat High):
Test 01: 1 Flamer, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @16s, Spider Death @49s, Explode @49s
Test 02: 9 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @5s, Explode @11s

Frozen City (Heat Low):
Test 01: 1 Flamer, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @28s, Spider Death @49s, Explode @51s
Test 02: 9 Flamers, Solid Fire - Heat Rise @0s, Spider Death @5s, Explode @14s


DPS:
1 Flamer - 0.8
2 Flamers - 1.5
3 Flamers - 2.1
4 Flamers - 2.8
5 Flamers - 3.6
6 Flamers - 4
7 Flamers - 5.1
8 Flamers - 6
9 Flamers - 7.2

I should redo it now we have clans, and try and match both (maybe just 10 internal DHS? too, for a slightly more 'natural' feeling)

[Boris The Spider]

How is it false? Your test, as mine shows 0 heat rise until a time has elapsed, on my mech its 8 seconds. On the stalker its 45 seconds, and on all your tests, without boating more than 3 flamers you have between 4 and 23 seconds of zero heat gen. The example given by the OP was a mech with a single flamer. Granted, I have never seen any point in running more that 2, as they niche equipment , like BAP and AMS, certainly not worth dedicating an entire mech to... so some kind of ghost heat scaling causing that effect?

Edited by Boris The Spider, 24 June 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[Ovion]

Boris The Spider, on 24 June 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

How is it false? Your test, as mine shows 0 heat rise until a time has elapsed, on my mech its 8 seconds. On the stalker its 45 seconds, and on all your tests, without boating more than 3 flamers you have between 4 and 23 seconds of zero heat gen. Granted, I have never seen any point in running more that 2, as they niche equipment , like BAP and AMS, certainly not worth dedicating an entire mech to.

Because it varies based on how many heatsinks, map, moving, etc.

I have a lot of heatsinks there - 26+.
And that boating multiple shows that they immediately generate heat.
The Flamer generates heat immediately, It's simply a matter of how long till it exceeds the heat disspation per second of the mech, then how long till it completely overwhelms it.

If I go drop in a Locust with SHS, then with DHS, it'll be different times.

[Ovion]

Decided to use a Spider with a 250 engine instead.
Both only had the base 10 heatsinks in the engine, and were stationary.
1 Flamer, SHS - 9S
2 Flamer, SHS - within 1S

1 Flamer, DHS - 15S
2 Flamer, DHS - 8S

Additionally, if you stop flaming, then reflame, the heat will either stop dropping or continue rising.
This shows not only immediate heat generation, but exponential heat generation, as if it was fixed generation, a single it would start exceeding the dissipation per second at twice the time with Truue DHS within the engine (18 seconds, rather than 15 seconds shown)

I think I will redo this shortly, with Clan and IS mechs (in single and double), using only the base engine heat sinks.

Edited by Ovion, 24 June 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[Boris The Spider]

Yeah sorry, your right Ovion, what I should have said is they are generating less heat than your engine passively cools, the slowdown in cooling is obviously that small amount of heat starting to overcome the passive cooling. For the effect to scale up so dramatically there must be some kind of ghost heat going on. Be interested to see what you turn up with the clan models.

[Ovion]

Ay.
If flamers had a flat heat gen (say, 1, then cause 0.8 in the target?), then you'd see a linear progression and it'd be more manageable.
Instead it goe's '1 hps > 2hps > 4hps' or whatever it is, and screws the pooch.

The Ops situtation is also on Terra Therma, right by / in the Lava (ouch).

Lets go do a quick test on that....

- 10 TDHS, 1 flamer, from base (10%) heat, Lava + Single Flamer, up 4% within a second, shutdown at 16S.

Edited by Ovion, 24 June 2015 - 03:46 PM.

[The Mechromancer]

flamers should vent excess heat and become more powerful the hotter your mech is