81 replies to this topic

[-VooDoo-]

Regardless of your stand point on nerfs to balance, which I don't believe are necessarily a bad thing, I think there is almost an ethics breach of sorts in some cases. Although PGI has the right to change material as they deem necessary, I think from a business perspective it is unethical to sell something to the public and then at a later point change that item, whatever that item may be. As if I bought a vehicle and then several months down the road the dealer showed up to swap out my rims for a smaller, less appealing set...just because they could. Obviously they would be sued over the event, or of course, shot on my front lawn.

Now I'm not writing this to highlight any particular mech, nerf or event. I just bothers me to no end that the public see's a shiny new toy that the company presents and asks them to spend hard earned money on that item only to change that item at a later point. There is no other business that could survive such a model. It is simply unethical to negatively modify something that your constituents have purchased with real money. Now if the item in question was free or purchased using a form of in game earned monetary system...that it different entirely. In that scenario changes can be made at will without any form of ethical breach in my opinion.


Like I suggested already, I do understand why changes have taken place. I just think it rides an ethical and legal line to bait and switch material that was purchased using a form of real money. It also obviously creates resistance to purchasing material in the future for many people in fear of these events taking place. One thing a business must have with its clientele...trust. Without it, any business will eventually fail.


Guess with all the random chatter on this topic I just needed to get my thoughts out of my head about this. I really don't care about nerfs or the like specifically, I just care about businesses being ethical. That's all...

[Lord Perversor]

Jazz Hands, on 24 June 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Regardless of your stand point on nerfs to balance, which I don't believe are necessarily a bad thing, I think there is almost an ethics breach of sorts in some cases. Although PGI has the right to change material as they deem necessary, I think from a business perspective it is unethical to sell something to the public and then at a later point change that item, whatever that item may be. As if I bought a vehicle and then several months down the road the dealer showed up to swap out my rims for a smaller, less appealing set...just because they could. Obviously they would be sued over the event, or of course, shot on my front lawn.

Now I'm not writing this to highlight any particular mech, nerf or event. I just bothers me to no end that the public see's a shiny new toy that the company presents and asks them to spend hard earned money on that item only to change that item at a later point. There is no other business that could survive such a model. It is simply unethical to negatively modify something that your constituents have purchased with real money. Now if the item in question was free or purchased using a form of in game earned monetary system...that it different entirely. In that scenario changes can be made at will without any form of ethical breach in my opinion.


Like I suggested already, I do understand why changes have taken place. I just think it rides an ethical and legal line to bait and switch material that was purchased using a form of real money. It also obviously creates resistance to purchasing material in the future for many people in fear of these events taking place. One thing a business must have with its clientele...trust. Without it, any business will eventually fail.


Guess with all the random chatter on this topic I just needed to get my thoughts out of my head about this. I really don't care about nerfs or the like specifically, I just care about businesses being ethical. That's all...

I'll just put it in short words.

It's a Multiplayer Online game.
Multiplayer Online games requires some balance along the whole options.
They mutate/change according to the FoTM or meta.

NOTHING will remain forever inmutable on this games, it's the ******* norm you can go check Starcraft 1 and 2 patch notes, Diablo 2 and 3 , LoL and Dota and hundred of similar games, something new is released it can be Op, up or even, and as the time passes and more things are released the Game Devs change them in an attempt to balance.

P.S: the only games it seems to find some kind of balanced are Stagnant gameplay ones Like Counterstrike as example.

[Kira Onime]

It's a PVP game, balance is something you always have to keep in mind.

If you come into this sort of game and don't expect nerfs/buffs, then I strongly suggest you revisit your entire way of thinking for these games.
Nerfs/buffs are going to happen. It is not "if", it is "when".

If something comes out and it's too strong for the general balance of the game, it will get nerfed eventually.
If it's too weak, it should get buffs.

You are delusional if you think paying any sort of money will give you any kind of pass on said nerfs/buffs.

[Revis Volek]

Don't you think every Professional Sports team owner has had this argument already with the league office once they change a rule or add new penlites or suspend a player for something. This is not just the way these kinds of video games are but how A LOT of games are.

New ways of scoring, running plays, doing things in the game will always be brought to light. Players get better, faster and more intune to the mechanics at play and can find ways to use them to their advantage. THUS, changes are brought in/nerfs added and then you get a more FAIR play across the board.

But the point is...this does not just apply to VIDEO GAMES such as this. Life is a changing thing, nothing is constant or stagnant and to be so is death in many ways. Players change as the game changes and the developers must often counter act said changes with nerfs, buffs, new content, updating old content....the list goes on.


But again, the point is this is the way these things work. If you are too naive to see it then that's on you....

[Stelar 7]

Your mistake is a catagory error in reasoning. You compare the mech to a car. However the car exists independently of the dealer who sold it to you. The mech requires servers and a functioning game world to exist. This it's properties are ethically required to serve the continued existence of the world by being balanced to fit within it.

Tl;dr you are renting a service not buying a product.

[XX Sulla XX]

People tend not to complain when the make the mechs better. It all balances out.

[One Medic Army]

You want bait and switch, go look at WarThunder or World of Tanks. WT just put out a new premium, then put it on sale, then nerfed it right after the sale.

[-VooDoo-]

Think you guys are missing the heart of what I'm saying. I am not disputing your points, because they are valid. In any case, I'm not going to argue back and forth. Just expressing my thoughts from the point of view of every other business on the planet.


Cheers

[mailin]

Think of it this way, before the quirks very rarely did you see Dragons or Highlanders any more. Now I see them more often. There are always going to be cases where things get tweaked. I personally believe that overall MWO has gotten better at balance over the years. I also remember for quite some time no one in their right mind ran locusts. So, instead of thinking about how this mech or that weapon got nerfed to achieve balance, remember the little locusts.

[Fate 6]

You say you understand and then say you think it's unethical. It's clearly ethical because it's in the ToS. They have the right to change balance. They have the right to make a Timberwolf the size of a Firestarter if they want. I knew when I bought an early Timber A that it would likely get changed, I didn't whine that PGI changed something I paid for. I didn't pay for a Timberwolf, I paid for access to it. We don't own any of this content. If the servers shut down we'd be ******-just look at MWT where plenty of Founders lost money

[Abisha]

your thinking is fine, but basically you not really bought anything here.
video games got a separate view point of what you own, you do not own a mech, you not own a account you do not own a videogame (put name in here) you basically not own anything.

if you have a problem with that, is a perfect and natural responds. Meaning be smart how much money you planning to spend on videogames in general. i only buy videogames when they are only 10 euro's i never ever gonna spend 60 Euro's on a Videogame because it's just out.

what have this to do with Mech warrior, basically it's the same, new content you pay for.

Edited by Abisha, 24 June 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[Dread Render]

the op starts with "Regardless of your stand point on nerfs to balance"...
You guys just want someone to trash.
His point is valid.
If they knew up front they were going to nerf a Mech after they got all the sales they think they can over a period of time he is totally correct that it is unethical.
All your points are mute because you were NOT responding to the OP but what you wanted to hear.
Again... you just want to put yourself over someone else so you can feel like you are right.
That makes you wrong... and basically just a Punk!

Sorry, to be specific i am referring to the first Four people who respond and use Balance as a reason.

Edited by Render, 24 June 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Midax]

The bait and switch is not the nerfing of mechs. That's game balance. It is the hype and interviews given before release leading people to believe that the game would head toward a tactical game with important roles to be filled. Instead we have a arena shooter TDM with a shallow MOBA CW attempt and E-Sports as a goal...

[Kavoh]

Its a necessary evil. And they're not taking anything away from you, just altering its performance, so you technically still have what you "bought".

Which brings me to my second point.

Quote

As if I bought a vehicle and then several months down the road the dealer showed up to swap out my rims for a smaller, less appealing set...just because they could. Obviously they would be sued over the event, or of course, shot on my front lawn.

You technically don't own any of this. You are essentially "renting" this account, which is why they are able to alter anything in the game without your consent and are able to ban at will. It's not even remotely comparable to a dealer changing something you physically bought. But guess what can happen? If you rent a car, I can promise you they can come do whatever they want to it regardless of its rented state.

[Hit the Deck]

Jazz Hands, on 24 June 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

...As if I bought a vehicle and then several months down the road the dealer showed up to swap out my rims for a smaller, less appealing set...just because they could. Obviously they would be sued over the event, or of course, shot on my front lawn.

Like the guy above said, we just rent a car from PGI.

[One Medic Army]

My position is if you bought a vehicle, in a game, which has a goal of balance... You should expect balance changes.

If you purchased things expecting it to never change, then you're an idiot.

Sincerely: Heavy Metal and Flame owner.

Edited by One Medic Army, 24 June 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

But you wouldn't download a car though. So...

See, this is why I wish MWO could be played offline and on private servers, with mods. Like others have said, we don't own squat. We're just renting. PGI could shut down the servers tomorrow, if they wanted to. And the 150 mechs in your mechbay, with a hundred dollars worth of camo patterns, they'd all just be a fond memory. We don't own anything.

[-VooDoo-]

And you likely would not have rented said materials using your real money with the end result being what they are in many cases.

[Midax]

Render, on 24 June 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

the op starts with "Regardless of your stand point on nerfs to balance"...
You guys just want someone to trash.
His point is valid.
If they knew up front they were going to nerf a Mech after they got all the sales they think they can over a period of time he is totally correct that it is unethical.
All your points are mute because you were NOT responding to the OP but what you wanted to hear.
Again... you just want to put yourself over someone else so you can feel like you are right.
That makes you wrong... and basically just a Punk!

You don't make a post on a forum that starts with, I don't care what you have to say about my opinion. If that is your stance then you shouldn't bother making a post in the first place as the point of a forum is to have a discussion. If you don't want to hear people disagree with you then make a tweet, its what Russ does.

There is no prof that there is a planned effort to hold nerfs with the intent to get more sales. If that were the case then we would see under performing mechs buffed to T1 status while they are exclusively pay to own. There are several mechs that under perform compared to ones that are available for cbills.

Also I can't get a new car for free by just waiting until it become available for fantasy money. When that happens maybe we can complain about them waiting until it was released for free before telling us the airbags need replaced.

[Dread Render]

Midax, on 24 June 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

You don't make a post on a forum that starts with, I don't care what you have to say about my opinion.

Good, I hope you don't, that is just dumb. The OP here did not do that either.
He specifically mentioned that he himself knows that there may be ballance issues that may require a New Mech to get nerfed.
Yet You choose to ignore that... so you are just spewing venom and trying to put yourself over another person because you think there will be no consequences. ....Punk!