109 replies to this topic

[Dinochrome]

Hailz Kristov Kerensky:

My thanks for a well written explanation, I now have the basic info.

V/R Dinochrome

[ShinVector]

Neema Teymory, on 26 June 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

This is the right idea. However, ping is a round trip time (i.e. the time it takes a message to get from your client to the server and then back to your client). That means if you have 200ms ping, it actually takes 100ms for a message to go in one direction. Therefore, what you see is actually 100ms old. Then, it takes another 100 ms for your fire command to reach the server. So by the time the server is processing your fire request, it is 200 ms ahead of what the client decided to shoot at. The server compensates for exactly this time difference.

Hi Neema,

Can I check whether this latest HSR fixes covers Lasers HSR fixes ?
I forgot whether it was you or Karl who mentioned that Lasers HSR did not support rewind to time stamp and instead used Ping latency to calculate the rewind.
And this causes to perform poorly with variable and higher ping.

So has Lasers HSR been improved to perform like Ballistics and Missiles HSR ?

Edited by ShinVector, 26 June 2015 - 12:04 PM.

[Neema Teymory]

ShinVector, on 26 June 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

Hi Neema, Can I check whether this latest HSR fixes covers Lasers HSR fixes ?

Hi ShinVector,

The latest changes certainly should have a noticeable improvement to lasers as well.

ShinVector, on 26 June 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

I forgot whether it was you or Karl who mentioned that Lasers HSR did not support rewind to time stamp and instead used Ping latency to calculate the rewind. And this causes to perform poorly with variable and higher ping. So has Lasers HSR been improved to perform like Ballistics and Missiles HSR ?

Yes, it is true that lasers (or any continuous fire weapon) work differently than projectile weapons, and it is also true that lasers are theoretically more prone to variations in latency. However, a higher more stable ping shouldn't be worse for lasers than for projectile weapons. It is difficult to explain why this is the case without having intimate knowledge about how our movement and firing models work. To answer your question, the incoming changes do not change this difference between continuous fire and projectiles weapons. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, I am working on changes that should reduce the algorithm's sensitivity to variations in ping, and it is in part related to this distinction between weapon types. Again, these changes will not make it in time for the next patch.

[Zordicron]

Lugh, on 26 June 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Jitter as a whole can be caused by so many different things between the client and the server. Have you done the usual fixes for attempting to fix this problem, being sure to disable your firewall(or program in the ports to open /forward for the game), turned off your anti-virus while playing (yes you can stop surfing porn while you wait in que without dying), has your modem's firmware or your routers firmware been updated to the latest and greatest version?

When experiencing the Jitter have you done a pathping to mwomercs.com(or whatever the server ip is) to find out where in the path your problem might be propping up? This is useful information both for you ( to reach out to your isp to report the device at x.x.x.x is showing large amounts of packet loss can you fix?) and for PGI (maybe a router in the data center is flapping and needs it's interfaces reset) ?

Please visit Frontier Communication's facebook page and read comments left by customers on basically any post they make ever. Then you will see that all this stuff you posted is worthless to me. The network is oversold to a laughable degree, and my jitter is usually related to what time of day it is and the weather(as in, how many people in my small town are inside streaming netflix at that moment)

Also, I am in my mid 30's, and built my PC from scratch, so, surprisingly, I don;t have this ADD need to watch porn in between matches.... or ever, for that matter, and the rest of your post is old news. I live in a rural spot with a single ISP available, outside of LOLCellphone internet. Frontier Owns the physical land lines of my small town. I am SOL as it were.

Neema Teymory, on 26 June 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Hey Eldagore,

Unfortunately, the coming changes do not make the algorithm any more resilient to problems introduced by sudden variations in latency. I am actively working on some more changes that should help with this, but they are not going to make it in time for the next patch. And while these changes should improve your experience while experiencing fluctuating latency, they will not be able to completely negate the problem.

If there is some way for you to have a stable, higher ping, this is better than a lower, fluctuating ping. And when I say fluctuations, I mean relatively large fluctuations (> ~50ms), smaller fluctuations _shouldn't_ matter so much. With that said, I think you should still see a noticeable improvement with the latest changes.

Thank you for the solid answer on this. I am looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Eldagore, on 26 June 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Please visit Frontier Communication's facebook page and read comments left by customers on basically any post they make ever. Then you will see that all this stuff you posted is worthless to me. The network is oversold to a laughable degree, and my jitter is usually related to what time of day it is and the weather(as in, how many people in my small town are inside streaming netflix at that moment)

Also, I am in my mid 30's, and built my PC from scratch, so, surprisingly, I don;t have this ADD need to watch porn in between matches.... or ever, for that matter, and the rest of your post is old news. I live in a rural spot with a single ISP available, outside of LOLCellphone internet. Frontier Owns the physical land lines of my small town. I am SOL as it were.


Thank you for the solid answer on this. I am looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work.

Hang on, so you KNOW your ISP is the problem but you want to know if PGI can fix it? Huh?

[Zordicron]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 June 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Hang on, so you KNOW your ISP is the problem but you want to know if PGI can fix it? Huh?

No.... I was just asking if there is some algorithm tweaks that would help. PGI can;t fix jitter, or anything caused by an ISP, but they CAN, possibly that is, take it into account when they write the code. I mean, optimizations done sound like that already- I mean thats the whole point of HSR anyway is to try to create an algorithm to smooth out different players interactions.

I don;t expect PGI to make my ping 20 and no jitter lol. They can run a powerful Server and regional ones to reduce the geographic part of the equation, but they can;t lay new lines in my town to replace the ones put in the ground in the 1970's. I am not asking them too either. Just looking for more insight into the scope of the possible on their end.

[ShinVector]

Neema Teymory, on 26 June 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Yes, it is true that lasers (or any continuous fire weapon) work differently than projectile weapons, and it is also true that lasers are theoretically more prone to variations in latency. However, a higher more stable ping shouldn't be worse for lasers than for projectile weapons. It is difficult to explain why this is the case without having intimate knowledge about how our movement and firing models work. To answer your question, the incoming changes do not change this difference between continuous fire and projectiles weapons. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, I am working on changes that should reduce the algorithm's sensitivity to variations in ping, and it is in part related to this distinction between weapon types. Again, these changes will not make it in time for the next patch.

Hi Neema,

Thanks for you info.

Currently the two biggest hit reg complaints are:

• High pinger lasers need to lead shoot to hit mechs that are moving at their 'real' positions.
  
• Very low ping players tend to run into the issue when ballistics pass through mechs.

The high ping needing to lead with lasers issue is can be referred to this video:
https://youtu.be/rdujjoX6oKw?t=137

Just to be clear the July 7th Patch will bring in HSR Bug Fixes + Bone Rewind (HSR 2.0 !!).

But there is still working being done with HSR to better compensate for people with higher network latency jitter and this will not becoming into to this patch ?

In any case, many of us eagerly waiting for the July 7th patch and greatly appreciate your work in trying to improve hit reg in the game. Thank you Neema.

[Random Carnage]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 25 June 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

I wonder if we're going to lose half of our light mech pilots again...

We can only hope.

[QuantumButler]

I'll believe it when it actually happens.

[Neema Teymory]

ShinVector, on 26 June 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

Hi Neema,

Thanks for you info.

Currently the two biggest hit reg complaints are:

• High pinger lasers need to lead shoot to hit mechs that are moving at their 'real' positions.
  
• Very low ping players tend to run into the issue when ballistics pass through mechs.

The high ping needing to lead with lasers issue is can be referred to this video:
https://youtu.be/rdujjoX6oKw?t=137

Both these situations should see improvements.

ShinVector, on 26 June 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

Just to be clear the July 7th Patch will bring in HSR Bug Fixes + Bone Rewind (HSR 2.0 !!).

I wouldn't call it HSR 2.0, but yes these changes are currently in testing and planned to be released with the July 7th patch. There is always a possibility something may go wrong and the changes may be held back for the next patch, but everything looks good so far.

ShinVector, on 26 June 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

But there is still working being done with HSR to better compensate for people with higher network latency jitter and this will not becoming into to this patch ?

Yes, these future changes should make the
algorithm less sensitive to latency variation. But they still will not be able to fully negate the problem.

[Sarlic]

Neema Teymory, on 27 June 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

Both these situations should see improvements.



I wouldn't call it HSR 2.0, but yes these changes are currently in testing and planned to be released with the July 7th patch. There is always a possibility something may go wrong and the changes may be held back for the next patch, but everything looks good so far.



Yes, these future changes should make the
algorithm less sensitive to latency variation. But they still will not be able to fully negate the problem.

Does this include something / affect SRMs? I have the most troubles with SRMs. Some reg. others dont.
Ping average is around 100-120.

Edited by Sarlic, 27 June 2015 - 07:58 AM.

[Jman5]

Hey Neema, will these improvements to hit registration have any impact on lock-on weapons like Streak SRMs and LRMs?

[Igor Kozyrev]

Hello! I have a question about zoom functionality. Many people say that zoom is host-authoritative, and that means that after pressing button client have to get host response to actually zoom in or out. This behaviour affects people with higher ping very noticeably, will this be fixed?

[Grommen]

Makes sense what everyone is saying. My Ping is 32 - 37 (Not quite in the server but server room adjacent I guess). It's also normally the lowest in the match, less someone is playing from eastern Canada.

AC10's are useless. Might as well toss water balloons at the enemy, and while I don't notice the rest of them not hitting as often, I madly spam fire AC 2's and 5's. I have wondered from time to time why my AC20 round did nothing.

Lasers got fixed a year ago I guess (prolly when HSR was introduced). Before that I was waving around a pretty colored flashlight. Now they at least seem to damage people.

What ever they did to SRM's also made them work a while back.

So all in all life has been getting better, so another round of hit detection improvement will be great.

Look it's not that we hate lights (well maybe a little). It's just very aggravating having one of those little buggers nipping at your feet spamming machine guns, small lasers, or and endless stream of SRM's. Your in side your little bean can getting knocked around trying to wip your torso and legs up to get off a shot.

Then it happens. That little freeken ball of anger hits a pixel and stops dead in it's tracks. This is it. cross hairs line up, convergences narrows. You scream bloody vengeance and you madly mash every mouse button you have. The alpha is on it's way and.......and.....

Not a damm thing happens. Why? We don't know. Your screen says you just put a gazillion points of damage into that things CT. You know it does not have that much armor and after all the freeken torso was red. But nooooooooooo. Nope that thing just keeps on a chuggen just like it never happened. And then your leg falls off, and his friend comes over this hill and your dead.

Ironically this never happens to me. No one misses my mechs. Very often I have parts fall off after I've been in cover for seconds. Missiles stay locked for months and rain down on me behind hills all the time.

Must just be the PUG life.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Eldagore, on 26 June 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

No.... I was just asking if there is some algorithm tweaks that would help. PGI can;t fix jitter, or anything caused by an ISP, but they CAN, possibly that is, take it into account when they write the code. I mean, optimizations done sound like that already- I mean thats the whole point of HSR anyway is to try to create an algorithm to smooth out different players interactions.

I don;t expect PGI to make my ping 20 and no jitter lol. They can run a powerful Server and regional ones to reduce the geographic part of the equation, but they can;t lay new lines in my town to replace the ones put in the ground in the 1970's. I am not asking them too either. Just looking for more insight into the scope of the possible on their end.

Ok, just wanted to make sure you understood that PGI can't actually fix that on their end, seen too many people who DO expect just that.

Sorry about the service issues you have man, I know that sucks, been there myself in the past. At one point I was straight up told that if I wanted a better connection I should get a sat connection for internet.

[Pjwned]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 25 June 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

Yep, true* light pilots despise the firestarter too. I couldn't play it because it felt like cheating. Plus try to defeat it in a 'normal' light...

*IMHO
--------------------------------------

Don't get me wrong peole, I'm happy about the change.

But

we might end up needing to lower weapon damage or sth, because the TTK may plummet if the fix will work...

Lowering ridiculous cooldown boosts on every mech would work pretty well.

[Wintersdark]

Dinochrome, on 26 June 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Unfortunately I am totally at a loss as to why "Bone Rewind" is a better thing than "HSR". Is there a succinct explanation that I as a member of the great unwashed Merc rabble could understand?

This was already answered well, but I'll restate it in pretty simple form.

Bone Rewind isn't a better thing than HSR (host state rewind), it's an improvement on HSR.

Right now: HSR moves the mech back in time to the point you fired in order to calculate where it was for you when you fired at it. What it DOESN'T currently do is rewind the positioning of the parts of the mech (arms, legs, torso direction). This means you could have been firing your lasers at a leg, but not actually hitting the leg because while the server has rewinded the mech's location on the map, it hasn't rewound the positions of its arms/legs/torso.

The Bone Rewind talked about here isn't a replacement for HSR, it's just adding functionality. After this patch, the server will rewind everything, so it'll account for moving arms and legs, twisting torsos, etc.

---

I'd like to say:

This is awesome. I mean, HSR is awesome in and of itself - on the face of it, even with a 400ms limit we currently have, that means the server needs to constantly store everything that has happened in the last half second, and needs to adaptively rewind time all over the place as 24 players are twisting, jumping, shooting, projectiles are flying around, it's massively complex. A huge tip of my hat to Neema and co who've managed to optimize the code to the point where they can do this in real time with so very much detail as to include even where arms and legs where. That's just cool.

[Wintersdark]

Jman5, on 27 June 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Hey Neema, will these improvements to hit registration have any impact on lock-on weapons like Streak SRMs and LRMs?

I'd imagine they won't help them hit or not hit, but should help them to distribute damage more accurately. That may be beneficial or not, but at least it'll be more accurate.

[Bulletsponge0]

Neema Teymory, on 26 June 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Hey Eldagore,

Unfortunately, the coming changes do not make the algorithm any more resilient to problems introduced by sudden variations in latency. I am actively working on some more changes that should help with this, but they are not going to make it in time for the next patch. And while these changes should improve your experience while experiencing fluctuating latency, they will not be able to completely negate the problem.

If there is some way for you to have a stable, higher ping, this is better than a lower, fluctuating ping. And when I say fluctuations, I mean relatively large fluctuations (> ~50ms), smaller fluctuations _shouldn't_ matter so much. With that said, I think you should still see a noticeable improvement with the latest changes.

will these changes fix the bug for Clan ERPPCs where if a second one hits while the paper doll from the first ERPPC is still flashing, then second one will not register any damage?

[Eider]

Grisbane, on 26 June 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

not half, most.. this will literally kill the firestarter since the thing is huge for a light. it should drop from top tier to near bottom because it will die so fast. this will however make mechs like the commando and locust better because they are super fast, small and hard to hit.. place much higher on the totem pole.

however the inverse effects on the MM may be devastating since almost no one will be piloting light mechs. PGI may want to lower the required amount of lights in a match when this drops or it will take an hour to get in a match in anything but a light mech.

except those mechs can be hit and have paper armor, so fix will hurt em bad.