77 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

Mcgral18, on 26 June 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Russ said that's exactly what they could do; change engines, swap upgrades.



The rules and limitations weren't stated, but they'll be able to.

If they do not have other limitations (which we don't know yet) then the 2nd line is better than the first line hehe

[DjPush]

Wow... 30 years of history in a game. It's kind of amazing that all this came out of the 80's.

[0bsidion]

Juodas Varnas, on 26 June 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

As if the ECMbringer didn't come with Wave 2...

I need some ice cream to lift my spirits up.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the Hellbringer power creep, but it's hard to argue reason with someone that cherry picks their facts and insists on wallowing in negativity.

[Alan Davion]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The Piranha isn't an Omnimech.

For unseating the Crow, I'd bet on the Huntsman. Only has Nova speed and weight, but it gets JJs and 1 ton more pod space than the Crow. Plenty of hardpoints to choose from.

lol, whoops. Blame my Crohn's disease acting up on that one. When feeling like my mid-section is in a slowly tightening vice it can sometimes sap my concentration.

[FupDup]

0bsidion, on 26 June 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the Hellbringer power creep, but it's hard to argue reason with someone that cherry picks their facts and insists on wallowing in negativity.

Well, the Hellbie didn't beat the Mad Cat which preceded it, but it did (and still does) beat most of the IS heavies so I guess it depends on where you put the baseline...

[Juodas Varnas]

0bsidion, on 26 June 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the Hellbringer power creep, but it's hard to argue reason with someone that cherry picks their facts and insists on wallowing in negativity.

Well, it was the first Heavy ECM capable mech, that was the staple in CW since its inclusion and is still easily one of the best heavy mechs in the game...
But i won't deny that i'm insisting on "wallowing in negativity", because that's just how i am.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 26 June 2015 - 10:13 AM.

[Milocinia]

Russ said that the designs for the IICs will be made from scratch and not simply modified IS designs which is nice.

From what I can see, what will "balance" these mechs is hardpoint starvation. Lighter weaponry is all well and good but if you don't have the hardpoints to mount it, you'll have to fill up with utilities like CAP, targeting computer and bigger engines.

Quick and versatile with the additional equipment, maybe but overpowered on the damage front, probably not.

Oh and the Hunchie IIC? Crippled by ghost heat if you fire the UAC/20s together.

[Juodas Varnas]

Kyocera, on 26 June 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

From what I can see, what will "balance" these mechs is hardpoint starvation. Lighter weaponry is all well and good but if you don't have the hardpoints to mount it, you'll have to fill up with utilities like CAP, targeting computer and bigger engines.

Well, a lot of IS mechs are not only hardpoint starved, but also have to use heavier weapons...

[Milocinia]

Juodas Varnas, on 26 June 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Well, a lot of IS mechs are not only hardpoint starved, but also have to use heavier weapons...

Yep so all you really end up with are longer range but longer burn lasers and burst fire UACs.

I honestly can't see how these can really be more powerful than something like the Timbergod with its huge amount of possible builds. Would you really take a smaller engine in the TBR if you could?

I'm just looking at it from an on the fence perspective and I can't see the IICs being overpowered at all. In fact I'm a bit underwhelmed by the concept and what they can potentially offer.

[Hit the Deck]

Kyocera, on 26 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

...
I'm just looking at it from an on the fence perspective and I can't see the IICs being overpowered at all. In fact I'm a bit underwhelmed by the concept and what they can potentially offer.

My concern is not to balance them against the Clan, but against the original IS 'Mechs which they are originated from.

[Milocinia]

Hit the Deck, on 26 June 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

My concern is not to balance them against the Clan, but against the original IS 'Mechs which they are originated from.

Quirks lol

[Kristov Kerensky]

Hit the Deck, on 26 June 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

My concern is not to balance them against the Clan, but against the original IS 'Mechs which they are originated from.

They don't balance against those because they are MEANT TO BE better than those originals, the entire point of the IIC redesign don't ya know.

[FupDup]

Kyocera, on 26 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Yep so all you really end up with are longer range but longer burn lasers and burst fire UACs.

I honestly can't see how these can really be more powerful than something like the Timbergod with its huge amount of possible builds. Would you really take a smaller engine in the TBR if you could?

I'm just looking at it from an on the fence perspective and I can't see the IICs being overpowered at all. In fact I'm a bit underwhelmed by the concept and what they can potentially offer.

I suppose it depends on which Clan Battlemech we're talking about, and where we put the baseline. As with all other mechs in the game, some Clan BM's have the innate potential to be beastly while some others might still be mediocre.

Omnimechs like the TBR, HBR, EBJ, SCR, DWF, ACH, and maybe SHC will definitely be hard to topple even with Clan BM's because they're very well-designed out of the box (which means their customization "restrictions" are more of a blessing than a curse).

For the TBR, a smaller engine could actually be a nice choice on some builds with several heavy weapons, but the XL375 is still a viable engine choice for a Clan 75 tonner. There's the Night Gyr Omnimech in the timeline that uses an XL300, and it's a turbobeast god amongst men:

Spoiler

PS: Don't diss Clan lazors ( ) because they also do more damage, which allows them to be equivalent to a larger number of IS lazors of similar type.

For example, the Clan MPL is almost as strong as 2 IS ML, while having more range. The Clan LPL is similar to 1.5 IS Large Lasers, but with waaay more range. The Clan ERML is almost a 1-ton miniature IS LL. Etc.

Edited by FupDup, 26 June 2015 - 10:44 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 June 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

They don't balance against those because they are MEANT TO BE better than those originals, the entire point of the IIC redesign don't ya know.

The Nerfinator doesn't agree with you!

[cSand]

Paigan, on 26 June 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Let me google that for you

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/IIC

Really. Using your brain is not that hard. Try it, you'll be amazed!

check it out, forum equivalent of simpson's comic book guy

[1453 R]

I'unno, Fup. The Grendel could prove interesting, too. 13.5t pod space at ~120 klicks for 45 tons. Not a lot, no, but it out-Hamsters the Nice Hamster pretty handily. Same weight, still faster than anything but light 'Mechs, and even after accounting for the two integrated sinks the Hamster gets, the Grendel manages two and a half tons more gear. Enough [E] to get the job done, smattering of ( and [M] and actually enough weight to use it. Could fill an interesting niche. Not as juicy as the Viper could be, but also less likely to be horrendously overscaled to Quickdraw proportions as an unrecoverable pre-emptive nerf. Blegh.

I would sell my soul for a (roughly) Cicada-sized Viper...and I would eat Russ' if we got a Nova-sized Viper >_>

Anyways. Neither are as meta as the Huntsman, of course. 6E/2M/1B on a 50-ton jumper that actually gets structure upgrades? Yeah, that might maybe potentially be useful.

I had honestly forgotten the Phantom existed, though. Now I want the hell out of it. 151kph base on something with a 10E variant and ECM in the prime fit? Oh my GOD yes. All of my hellz yeah. I suddenly have a 'Mech I want even more than I want the Viper. The Phantom may not have eight jump jets, but it has ALL THE GUNS and ALL THE FAST. A quick buzz-through on S7 says you get the ECM in the RT, 4E in each arm with full compliment of actuators (stupid Executioner elbowless Godhand...), and a 2E LT off the Prime. So...10E w/ECM. 11E w/ECM if we get the A, B, or D variants with their CT energy to boot.

It even looks awesome. Holy Shatner. WTB Phantom now please.

Anyways. The Battle Cobra is butt, as is the bigger Crossbow. What the hell were the Steel Vipers thinking? The Pouncer...might work, but frankly a 40-tonner which looks to rely largely on beamvomit and goes 97kph isn't going to make much of a splash next to the Stormcrow. The Black Lanner is an interesting experiment that might prove workable, especially with its M.A.S.C., depending on scaling and how much it continues to resemble Dr. Robotnik's pet chicken, but after being reminded of the Phantom and discovering what an unholy nightmare it could apparently be, I'm not sure there's room in my heart for another up-engined lightium.

As for the other weight classes? Heh, who cares. The Linebacker is a 65-ton 'Mech with 17.5 tons of pod space that'd also rely on beamvomit to have enough firepower to matter, the Crossbow is canonically awful, and we all know the Night Gyr will obsolete the Timber Wolf when it hits. The Naga? No. Just...no. The Turkina, on the other hand, is visually interesting and looks to have a decent spread of variants. Slow as a Whale, but with hardwired jets for mobility. Which, Paul dependent, might no longer be such a liability sometime soon.

Me? If I were building the next Clan pack, and concerned only with filling holes in the existing Clan spread, it'd be Fire Falcon, Phantom/Viper, Night Gyr, and Turkina. The Falcon and Phantom/Viper, alongside the Cheetah, should give the Clans enough ridicu-fast to finally be on an even keel with the Sphere on that count, the Night Gyr gives an option for the old Cataphract-style plodding gunboat in the Clan heavy lineup rather than the current crop of universally up-engined heavies, and the Turkina, again, leans on firepower more than mobility, unlike three of the existing four Clan assaults.

None of which is the point of the thread, of course. I mostly just felt like writing it so there And I'm glad I did, because now I know what forty-ton nightmare to start campaigning for!

Edited by 1453 R, 26 June 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 26 June 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Clan weapons are not objectively better

Pretty sure you and I are not playing the same Mechwarrior online.

Outside of maybe 1 or 2 specific ballistic weapons, I'd say every clan weapon is either outright superior or at worse roughly equivalent.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I just wonder why they're skipping more Clan Omnis, which wouldn't open up a can of worms with different construction rules. We do have at least one more Omni available per weight class.

The answer is actually more simple than you think.

It's the overall "reuse of assets" (Legomechs™ system) that makes this easier to accomplish. It takes a lot less effort than to create an entirely different mech to accomplish the goal.

How long did you think it took for PGI to convert the Gargles (Gargoyle) to the Gladbag (Executioner)?

It's easier to get these mechs out through this method.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 June 2015 - 11:03 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Innocent, on 26 June 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Everyone is making major assumptions about how it is implemented. There is no reason to believe they will change the locked equipment/upgrades from what is the current clan build rules.

because Russ said they'd have unlocked upgrades maybe?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Deathlike, on 26 June 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

The answer is actually more simple than you think.

It's the overall "reuse of assets" (Legomechs™ system) that makes this easier to accomplish. It takes a lot less effort than to create an entirely different mech to accomplish the goal.

How long did you think it took for PGI to convert the Gargles (Gargoyle) to the Gladbag (Executioner)?

It's easier to get these mechs out through this method.

I can almost see that but Russ did state the IICs aren't reused assets, they aren't just the Hunch or Orion with Clan toys in them, they are new Mechs with their own unique designs. We'll have to wait and see I guess.