32 replies to this topic

[DAYLEET]

A long time ago, i militated long and hard to remove group from solo. I mostly play group with a friend. Hearing they wanted to limit the group queue to 4 person per group seemed wrong, mostly because i first pushed them away from the solo group with good reasons. Even though my reasons were more than rational and honest to god made in good will, it never felt great(pushing people away) and doing it a second time didnt feel better or even meaningful so i decided to look away when breaking group to 4 was mentioned, i didnt want to take part in such a discussion. Maybe i am not alone in that sentiment.

I play solo/group and a little bit of cw here and there but mostly play group queue with a single friend. That's right im always part of the "pugs" in group queue and never really felt like there was a problem with dropping with/against large premade. I did realize that it does perpetuate the "stomp one game and then get stomped the other" but i just went along with it mostly because when you are part of the stompers it does not seem as big a problem(let's be honest here) and after playing mwo for a long time the stomps seems to be the normal outcome 10%? of the times. Sometimes(rarely though) you really just end up with a good fight. I now realize i accepted the bad and boring outcome of many match as a normality rather than an anomaly that needs to be rectified. Very bad stomps don't happen often for me but twice a night always is too much and we tend to remember those strongly.

But Russ came with something shocking

Quote

6% of groups are 6- 10 ... Less than 1 % 11 - 12 93% are groups of 4 or less.

O, m, g... I never expected the numbers of larger group to be so abysmally low.

Russ also said that the "majority" of people are supposed to be on the side of the 7% of people in a matter that directly affected the other 93% in a negative way, could it be the looming sad sentiment of the first breakup group in solo queue?

I certainly see a lot more 6+ groups(more than 6%) when i play group, i would have guessed 20%+ are in big group. Is my mind only remembering those premade games or is it the match maker favoring me with bigger group? Then realized i do see more and bigger premade in CW. It IS where i see the big group more often and it would make sense for them to stick to CW. Because it's what CW wants to be and it's where you are supposed to find the biggest and best group of people to play with.

Limiting Group Queue to 4 could accomplish many positive things:

Better set CW apart from just a longer waiting drop mode.

Actually have people who play competitively with each others in CW rather than just farm mechbays.

Make CW competitive.

Give an incentive to join a group for CW and treat it as a meaningful way to play the game rather than another tdm.

Everyone could win here, everyone could have better match. The more i think about it the more obvious it is. breaking groups could actually be beneficial for both Group Queue and CW Queues.

Russ also mentioned about different server in the world and that CW would not get more because of population. That is a direct comment about solo and group queue being healthy enough to be broken in different part of the world and without a doubt healthy enough to share some more players from both solo and group queue unto the CW.

Did Russ make you change you mind in anyways about the limiting group to 4? In what ways did he convinced you that one way, for or against, is better than the other?


Let me define what i consider a stomp before anyone ask. When your team start to crumble mid match but very quickly after a heated fight and you lose 12-4 or even 12-3, that's not a stomp. It's the resulting nature of the game where damage needs to be spreadout between your own parts and your teammates and how you and your teammate are able to put damage where it counts and focus it. This mostly happens in solo queue and people scream stomp when they fall apart quickly after a good fight. This is where you differentiate good group/players versus bad group/players. A stomp is when you lose before ever knowing what is going on, a large and coordinated group will decimate half your team before you even know it has happened and that happens very fast. At best you will have 12-0 12-2 games. Large coordinated groups are good at pushing without stopping versus pugs and that's what I call a stomp.

Thanks to everyone who read that.

[ScarecrowES]

Pub queue and CW are two very different things. Right now Pub has 2 modes, solo and group, to handle folks who prefer to drop whichever way... so no more 12-mans stomping pugs in pub. That's honestly for the best.

But CW is supposed to be an organized factional game mode. You're SUPPOSED to group up. That's why there are factions, contracts, etc. In fact, with the details Russ talked about last night, dedicated loyalist units and their 12-man drop teams are going to play an even more prominant role in dictating what planets are attacked and defended, which enemy faction borders are focused on, which planetary contracts get bonuses and incentives, etc. The entire mode, and stage 3 especially, is designed for those groups currently running 12-man drops.

Why go through the effort of making a game mode designed around organized groups, and then LIMIT the groups that can drop? It makes no sense. I'd argue that if you're really interested in playing CW, you absolutely have to invest in it fully. That means mechs and builds that are designed to compliment a team, tactics that work on that game mode, etc. Ultimately, you're going to have a hard time doing any of that as a pug, and that's kinda the point in CW.

[FupDup]

Meh.

I'd still rather have players get matched with others of similar competency rather than worrying about premade sizes (the stomps happen because of large skill mismatches).

I also think that pugs should have the option to opt-in to the current premade queue, if they so wish (or they can just play the pug queue instead, whatever floats their boat).

[Roadkill]

You have to be careful with numbers from PGI. For example:

Quote

6% of groups are 6- 10 ... Less than 1 % 11 - 12 93% are groups of 4 or less.

That's talking about groups not players.

If 1% of groups are 12-man teams, that's 12% of the players. (Stop right there, yes I realize it's not because some of the other groups contain 6, or 8, or whatever players.)

So what Russ has given us isn't terribly useful unless you want to do some math and make some assumptions. I'm too lazy to bother, but suffice it to say that if 7% of groups contain 6-12 players and 93% contain 2-4 players, the number of players playing in large groups could be similar to the number of players playing in small groups.

[Mudhutwarrior]

It's all a matter of the customer base. Though the 1% are big spenders the impact is marginal at best compared to the base.

For years now teams have been ramming the game design down everyone's throats and opposing anything to benefit the 93%.

Many will remember the rage and insult fests brought upon us by the 1% over forming a solo que. Some of us remember on those other forums their promise to make a mess of solo que to get back at us.

We know about the faction supported TS synch drop into solo channels that exist to this day.

We know about the 1% telling us there were no exploits, Graphics hacks or cheating and how macros were fine for them.

We know one of their own was first up on the insults and attacks here on the forums and is now banned for cheating many more being watched by Russ's own admission.

The 1% doesn't have a good track record here as in real life it seems.

I still support their right to play as they want though. Its only fair to let them have 12 mans. I ask they show the same and support the base.

Doubt it will happen though. I will still take the high road and respect their rights to play as they want but every time I see the words Scub or Steering wheel underhive it chips away at my resolve to be a good person. I say its up to them to approach us in a different way than before.

Edited by Mudhutwarrior, 26 June 2015 - 01:21 PM.

[DAYLEET]

Roadkill, on 26 June 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

If 1% of groups are 12-man teams, that's 12% of the players. (Stop right there, yes I realize it's not because some of the other groups contain 6, or 8, or whatever players.)

So what Russ has given us isn't terribly useful unless you want to do some math and make some assumptions. I'm too lazy to bother, but suffice it to say that if 7% of groups contain 6-12 players and 93% contain 2-4 players, the number of players playing in large groups could be similar to the number of players playing in small groups.

That's a good point, i admit i did not see it like that at all.

Well, those 12 players still only amount to 1%.

Edited by DAYLEET, 26 June 2015 - 01:26 PM.

[DAYLEET]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

(the stomps happen because of large skill mismatches).

I disagree with that. When a real stomps happens, wetter i receive it or give it, it's always with a large premade. I explained in detail what i consider a stomp at the end of my post, most of the times in chat when i see someone complain we got rolled i just completely disagree with him, the score has nothing to do with it, it;s how it happened.

[One Medic Army]

Roadkill, on 26 June 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

You have to be careful with numbers from PGI. For example:



That's talking about groups not players.

If 1% of groups are 12-man teams, that's 12% of the players. (Stop right there, yes I realize it's not because some of the other groups contain 6, or 8, or whatever players.)

So what Russ has given us isn't terribly useful unless you want to do some math and make some assumptions. I'm too lazy to bother, but suffice it to say that if 7% of groups contain 6-12 players and 93% contain 2-4 players, the number of players playing in large groups could be similar to the number of players playing in small groups.

Well, max 6%, and really closer to 3-4% really when you account minimum 2 per group, and there's also people in the 6-10 range.

Also Russ never specified if that's as a ratio of groups formed, or groups in matches, which alters the numbers quite a bit more.

Edited by One Medic Army, 26 June 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[Dracol]

Roadkill, on 26 June 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

You have to be careful with numbers from PGI. For example:

That's talking about groups not players.
...

Good point. So, a sample of 1,000 groups, favoring larger groups when needed, the break down would be:
"6% of groups are 6- 10 ... Less than 1 % 11 - 12 93% are groups of 4 or less."
1% or 10 groups of 12 man = 120 pilots
6% or 60 groups of 10 man = 600 pilots
93% or 930 groups of 4 man = 3720 pilots

Still works out the same. 4 mans or less are the majority of players as well as group sizes.

Edited by Dracol, 26 June 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[FupDup]

DAYLEET, on 26 June 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

I disagree with that. When a real stomps happens, wetter i receive it or give it, it's always with a large premade. I explained in detail what i consider a stomp at the end of my post, most of the times in chat when i see someone complain we got rolled i just completely disagree with him, the score has nothing to do with it, it;s how it happened.

A large premade full of comp-level players, I take it?

If it was a premade full of random Average Joes, I don't think they would really be able to stomp the other Average Joes on the red team.

[Domenoth]

Roadkill, on 26 June 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

You have to be careful with numbers from PGI. For example:



That's talking about groups not players.

If 1% of groups are 12-man teams, that's 12% of the players. (Stop right there, yes I realize it's not because some of the other groups contain 6, or 8, or whatever players.)

So what Russ has given us isn't terribly useful unless you want to do some math and make some assumptions. I'm too lazy to bother, but suffice it to say that if 7% of groups contain 6-12 players and 93% contain 2-4 players, the number of players playing in large groups could be similar to the number of players playing in small groups.

Point of clarification: What Russ actually said was percent of matches. I think that would translate to 1% of matches have teams of 11 or 12.

Edit:

One Medic Army, on 26 June 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Also Russ never specified if that's as a ratio of groups formed, or groups in matches.

I think he did say. I just finished listening to the town-hall and I heard him say matches.

Edited by Domenoth, 26 June 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[DAYLEET]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

A large premade full of comp-level players, I take it?

If it was a premade full of random Average Joes, I don't think they would really be able to stomp the other Average Joes on the red team.

My skill level didnt directly increase when i was in that large premade, and it didn't lower when i was facing them but being in a group is a huge buff over someone that is puging, nomater their skill level and at that point i don't think skill level should even be considered. Being in group on com, always playing with each others, it puts you in a completely different league regardless of your skill level.

[FupDup]

DAYLEET, on 26 June 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

My skill level didnt directly increase when i was in that large premade, and it didn't lower when i was facing them but being in a group is a huge buff over someone that is puging, nomater their skill level and at that point i don't think skill level should even be considered. Being in group on com, always playing with each others, it puts you in a completely different league regardless of your skill level.

The comms advantage doesn't really exist any longer because of VOIP, it's just that people don't use it that often for various reasons. If people disable it, then that's their fault rather than the MatchMaker's fault.

The only other advantage I can think of might be coordinating the team's mech builds, but at that point you're facing a competitive-grade premade if they care about min-maxxing their mechs that much. Most "average joes" in the group queue probably just take their own builds similar to what they would do in Puglandia (that's what I did whenever I was in a premade), though perhaps they might use somewhat more efficient builds than Puglandia (because of increased likelihood of competition).

[Roadkill]

Domenoth, on 26 June 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Point of clarification: What Russ actually said was percent of matches. I think that would translate to 1% of matches have teams of 11 or 12.

Edit:

I think he did say. I just finished listening to the town-hall and I heard him say matches.

There are no 11-man teams, so they'd all be 12-mans.

To figure it out you'd have to know all of the precentages, not just groups of them. But as Dracol posted it's probably still in favor of the small groups regardless.

Assuming even distribution (Dracol weighted toward the higher group sizes):

(6+7+8+9+10+12) * 1.1667 ~= 61
(2*31)+(3*31)+(4*31) = 279

So about 82% of group players play in small groups, and 18% play in large groups.

[Domenoth]

Roadkill, on 26 June 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

There are no 11-man teams, so they'd all be 12-mans.

To figure it out you'd have to know all of the precentages, not just groups of them. But as Dracol posted it's probably still in favor of the small groups regardless.

Assuming even distribution (Dracol weighted toward the higher group sizes):

(6+7+8+9+10+12) * 1.1667 ~= 61
(2*31)+(3*31)+(4*31) = 279

So about 82% of group players play in small groups, and 18% play in large groups.

I think you missed my point. Russ said matches. Matches have 24 players. 94% of matches have 4 or less. You said Russ's numbers were useless because he said groups. He did not say groups. He said matches.

Edit
That's why I said clarification. People started doing all kinds of math because of your post. I'm attempting to clarify that your post had an error in it.

Edit 2

Roadkill, on 26 June 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

So about 82% of group players play in small groups, and 18% play in large groups.

So I think the math is actually quite easy. You say 82% and 18% after doing some complicated math. I think more accurate numbers based solely on Russ's statement would be 94% play in small groups and 6% play in large.

Edited by Domenoth, 26 June 2015 - 01:47 PM.

[Roadkill]

Domenoth, on 26 June 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

I think you missed my point. Russ said matches. Matches have 24 players. 94% of matches have 4 or less. You said Russ's numbers were useless because he said groups. He did not say groups. He said matches.

Edit
That's why I said clarification. People started doing all kinds of math because of your post. I'm attempting to clarify that your post had an error in it.

Well... the numbers are still basically useless. On average, every single match is probably double if not triple counted.

12-man on one side vs 2-man + 4-man + 6-man on the other. That match gets counted 4 times, but 50% of the players are in a 12-man.

12-man on both sides. That match gets counted 1 time.

6 x 2-man on each side. That match gets counted 1 time.

So his numbers really don't mean much at all.

[Novakaine]

Seriously people.
You simply cannot mitigate these.
1. Skill levels.
2. Planning.
3. Practicing together.
4. Good communications.
5. Superior mech builds.
These are the real reasons for the roll stomps in pugs or CW.
Granted a badly organized premade can lose a match, but a well organized team is difficult to overcome.
And it should be.
If this is supposed to be a team based game then reward and encourage those who do work together.
If not just change the name to Solaris Online.
Antisocialista's rage away.
Soldier up and Enlist.

[DAYLEET]

Novakaine, on 26 June 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Seriously people.
You simply cannot mitigate these.
1. Skill levels.
2. Planning.
3. Practicing together.
4. Good communications.
5. Superior mech builds.
These are the real reasons for the roll stomps in pugs or CW.
Granted a badly organized premade can lose a match, but a well organized team is difficult to overcome.
And it should be.
If this is supposed to be a team based game then reward and encourage those who do work together.
If not just change the name to Solaris Online.
Antisocialista's rage away.
Soldier up and Enlist.

I can't tell by your comment if you are for or against, was that done on purpose?

[Mudhutwarrior]

Team based game the vast majority don't play in teams... Got it.

Yep we should side with the minority here...

[R Razor]

DAYLEET, on 26 June 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

I can't tell by your comment if you are for or against, was that done on purpose?

Pretty sure he's against it as he's encouraging folks to "soldier up and enlist" in a unit.........and he is right in that you aren't going to overcome a well organized team on a dedicated TS server with a random selection of 2 - 4 man groups using only VOIP on anything approaching a regular basis.........

What he isn't considering in his effort to get folks to "enlist" is that getting new people involved and keeping them involved in a game that, if they are playing in any smallish group, lends itself to them getting ***** repeatedly (great learning experience) is difficult at best.