30 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Just so this Topic doesnt Get Side Tracked,
This is a IS Vs Clan Debate but its also much more,
Just as its all about Much as an BattleMech Vs OmniMech Debate,

First off,
NEW CLAN IIC BATTLEMECHS!
Jenner IIC:

Spoiler

Hunchback IIC:

Spoiler

Orion IIC:

Spoiler

Highlander IIC:

Spoiler

this opens up 2 Whole New Balance Perspectives,

the First one is Force Balance,
in the way of IS vs Clan(IS-BattleMechs vs Clan-BattleMech),
this will allow a more thorough break down of Each Factions Tech,
(Discussion 1 in this Topic )

the Second one is more Tech Balance,
in the way of BattleMech vs OmniMech(Clan-BattleMechs vs Clan-OmniMech),
this will allow a more thorough break down of Each Type of Tech,
(Discussion 2 in this Topic )

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 26 June 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Any Ideas or Comments?

[FupDup]

I think that for starters, Clan tech on any mech type should be better balanced against IS tech on any mech type. Right now, on chassis with no quirks or low quirks, I would take the Clan tech any day. The IS tech only starts to compete when turbobuffed on certain chassis, or when you're comparing it to a poorly designed Clan mech (i.e. one that lacks Endo, has a bad engine, etc.).

I also think that Clan Battlemech customization should be similar to IS Battlemechs, but not as open for fairness due to the tech advantages. For example, something like a lower engine cap or having to use engines that are a multiple of your tonnage (BT engine rules), being able to remove/add Endo/FF but they have locked critslots, no hardpoint inflation or quirks outside of poopy outliers, etc.

Edited by FupDup, 26 June 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[El Bandito]

I guess PGI thought it will be easy money, since the IIC mechs have basically the same model as the old IS counterparts so less work is required.

Jenner IIC is going to be a Light Hunter, for sure. Clan Streaks + 150 kph speed.

Everyone is going to replace those dual CUAC20s on the Hunchback IIC with CUAC10s, or a single or even dual Gauss for the lulz.

Orion is bleh--but at least it can survive an ST explosion thanks to Clan XL. Now it can pack firepower and speed.

Highlander IIC suffers from the same fault as the regular Highlander--low engine size. Doesn't matter if it can pack more guns, it is still gonna go no more than 64 kph.


What is interesting is that most of these mechs do not have enough timeline variants, giving PGI ample opportunity to make their own builds. Let's see how far their imagination can go.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 June 2015 - 04:07 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 26 June 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I guess PGI thought it will be easy money, since the IIC mechs have basically the same model as the old IS counterparts so less work is required.

Jenner IIC is going to be a Light Hunter, for sure.

It's funny that they removed 2 of the Oxide's missile hardpoints out of fear of it being too good at murdering other lights, but the Jenny IIC will get to mount even more missiles due to Clans having access to bigger Streak launchers.

[Andi Nagasia]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

I think that for starters, Clan tech on any mech type should be better balanced against IS tech on any mech type. Right now, on chassis with no quirks or low quirks, I would take the Clan tech any day. The IS tech only starts to compete when turbobuffed on certain chassis.

I also think that Clan Battlemech customization should be similar to IS Battlemechs, but a little bit less open for fairness due to the tech advantages. For example, something like a lower engine cap or having to use engines that are a multiple of your tonnage (BT engine rules), being able to remove/add Endo/FF but they have locked critslots, no hardpoint inflation or quirks outside of poopy outliers, etc.

True but as Clan will be getting BattleMechs and IS have BattleMechs Balancing the Tech should be easier,
as we are looking at Mechs of similar Construction, this i feel will help Find a IS to Clan balance,

Edit-
I think Clan Battle should have the SAME construction Rules as IS,
that way balancing Tech can be easier as the Rules are the Same,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 26 June 2015 - 04:02 PM.

[Armorine]

in before the doom and gloom starts. first your not going to balance them period wont happen ever without gimping clan tech to the point of rediculousness. as it stands theyr fairly balanced right now. power creep is the natural progression of mechwarrior. the best we can hope for is this leading to mixed tech eventually and if we get lucky the later heavy weapons an other tiys the IS develops to fight the clans.

also you should look at it this way. there will be no hardpoint inflation on the clan mechs. non zero zilch. they wont need it.

now give me that highlander and orion!!!!

[That Guy]

make clan battlemechs have a role on the battlefield, and give them appropriate quirks

additionally you can look at the link in my sig for some more thoughts on how to balance things in terms of upgrades, and quirks

[Lexx]

So you want to introduce second line and IIC clan mechs, with OP clan weapons that are better than IS weapons in every way, that don't have omnimech construction restrictions to balance them, and pretend they will be equal to IS mechs?

Then buff IS mechs even more, or nerf the heck out of the new non omni clan mechs?,.. and you somehow think that would make balancing them easier?

Did you really think this through, or do you just want some new clan mechs that dominate the game even more than the clan mechs you already have?

[Armorine]

Lexx, on 26 June 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

So you want to introduce second line and IIC clan mechs, with OP clan weapons that are better than IS weapons in every way, that don't have omnimech construction restrictions to balance them, and pretend they will be equal to IS mechs?

Then buff IS mechs even more, or nerf the heck out of the new non omni clan mechs?,.. and you somehow think that would make balancing them easier?

Did you really think this through, or do you just want some new clan mechs that dominate the game even more than the clan mechs you already have?

called it doom and gloom

[Andi Nagasia]

Lexx, on 26 June 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

So you want to introduce second line and IIC clan mechs, with OP clan weapons that are better than IS weapons in every way, that don't have omnimech construction restrictions to balance them, and pretend they will be equal to IS mechs?

Then buff IS mechs even more, or nerf the heck out of the new non omni clan mechs?,.. and you somehow think that would make balancing them easier?

Did you really think this through, or do you just want some new clan mechs that dominate the game even more than the clan mechs you already have?

if the Tech is Truly suppirior than this should show how it is and where,
as it will be ISTech&BattleMech vs ClanTech&BattleMech, not ISTech&BattleMech vs ClanTech&OmniMech,
and as both will be BattleMechs you can now look to it to see if OmniMechs are better or Just the Tech,
(not saying Clan Tech is Better than IS Tech, and not Saying OmniMechs are Better than BattleMechs)

[MerryIguana]

I smell a balance nightmare. Clan launch v2.

[OzViper]

I think PGI will launch the IIC mechs without much regard for their OPness.. sell a bucket load of them and then look at balancing properly when they are available for CBills..... seems to be the way they approach things..

[Lexx]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 June 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

if the Tech is Truly suppirior than this should show how it is and where,
as it will be ISTech&BattleMech vs ClanTech&BattleMech, not ISTech&BattleMech vs ClanTech&OmniMech,
and as both will be BattleMechs you can now look to it to see if OmniMechs are better or Just the Tech,
(not saying Clan Tech is Better than IS Tech, and not Saying OmniMechs are Better than BattleMechs)

So a gauss rifle that weighs 3 tons less and takes up less space than it's IS counterpart, with no drawbacks to balance the weapon isn't better? SRMs that are smaller and weigh half as much, but fire the same, have the same range and the same amount of ammo aren't better? An ERPPC that is smaller, weighs less, and does 50% more damage (spread out, but still more damage) isn't better?

Are you so biased that you can't even look at some basic numbers and see that some clan weapons are better in every way than their IS counterparts?

If there are no drawbacks to balance this, then non omni clan battlemechs will dominate the battlefield, based on weapons alone. Add in engine size changes, smaller double heat sinks, half slot endo, ferro, ect. and they will make everything else obsolete.

The clan omnimechs weren't balanced very well and some of them are still dominating the battlefield right now. What everyone wants to know is how will PGI balance these IIC mechs without completely breaking the game?

Edited by Lexx, 26 June 2015 - 05:28 PM.

[PowerKill Necron]

OzViper, on 26 June 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

I think PGI will launch the IIC mechs without much regard for their OPness.. sell a bucket load of them and then look at balancing properly when they are available for CBills..... seems to be the way they approach things..

Quoted for truth. It's standard practice in F2P games to sell OP then nerf later. Nothing drives sales more than giving one player something the is blatantly more powerful that something another player has. People mouse about not having fair fights, but they don't ACTUALLY want one. The want to own opponents with superior gear.

To be fair, PGI wasn't the first to do this and won't be the last.

[Andi Nagasia]

Lexx, on 26 June 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

So a gauss rifle that weighs 3 tons less and takes up less space than it's IS counterpart, with no drawbacks to balance the weapon isn't better? SRMs that are smaller and weigh half as much, but fire the same, have the same range and the same amount of ammo aren't better? An ERPPC that is smaller, weighs less, and does 50% more damage (spread out, but still more damage) isn't better?

Are you so biased that you can't even look at some basic numbers and see that some clan weapons are better in every way than their IS counterparts?

If there are no drawbacks to balance this, then non omni clan battlemechs will dominate the battlefield, based on weapons alone. Add in engine size changes, smaller double heat sinks, half slot endo, ferro, ect. and they will make everything else obsolete.

The clan omnimechs weren't balanced very well and some of them are still dominating the battlefield right now. What everyone wants to know is how will PGI balance these IIC mechs without completely breaking the game?

Im not saying Each side doesnt have its Strong weapons (IS ACs)(Clan Gauss),
im saying accually balancing those things should be easier with the IIC mechs,
as we are balancing Apples to Apples, not Apples to Oranges anymore,

[Y E O N N E]

It's still apples and oranges, though, because the equipment itself is not comparable.

Individual 'Mechs mean very little, their geometry and hard-point locations merely augment certain characteristics of the equipment.

I just want to wait and see what they do with the IIC 'Mechs, and what they do with the incoming re-quirk. I still think they need to bite the bullet and introduce IS ER lasers, LACs, and LPPCs before they can make any meaningful attempt at quirking, but we'll see.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 June 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

It's still apples and oranges, though, because the equipment itself is not comparable.

Individual 'Mechs mean very little, their geometry and hard-point locations merely augment certain characteristics of the equipment.

I just want to wait and see what they do with the IIC 'Mechs, and what they do with the incoming re-quirk. I still think they need to bite the bullet and introduce IS ER lasers, LACs, and LPPCs before they can make any meaningful attempt at quirking, but we'll see.

BINARY
LASER
CANNONZ!!!!

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

BINARY
LASER
CANNONZ!!!!

It would have to do at least 18 damage, or it's not helping us at all when it weighs 9 tons and takes 4 slots!

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 June 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

It would have to do at least 18 damage, or it's not helping us at all when it weighs 9 tons and takes 4 slots!

Well, I think we need to do something with the IS regular LL, and then the Blazer would inherit that buff indirectly.