70 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

3 PPCs was a cool thing on the Highlanders (HGN-732 w/Gauss) when it was a meta... but we can't have nice things.

I think the bigger problems is actually the IS ERPPC being inferior to both the IS PPC and Clan ERPPC. 5 heat is too much at that point and the Clan version is literally superior (no drawbacks)... so I'd rather we buff IS ERPPCs in some way (even just adding a small bit of splash damage like 1.25 per side would be sufficient).

Edited by Deathlike, 27 June 2015 - 12:36 PM.

[LordNothing]

ppcs need love. single ppc builds have heat problems. anyone with the nards to mount 3 or 4 of them must be some kind of crazy, and thats without ghost heat.

[Alistair Winter]

The elaborate cuffs on thine shirt doth look quite magnificent without their laser baubles, madame!

#dynamicgeometry

Edited by Alistair Winter, 27 June 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Awesome can't fire all 3 PPCs without getting into heat issues, volley fire was used to keep up sustained fire. Warhawk can't fire all 4 ERPPCs at once, it also uses volley fire to keep up sustained fire. Sorry guys, these Mechs CARRY big hot guns, that doesn't mean they were actually capable of firing them without issues, especially when each of them is specifically mentioned as NOT being able to do that.

The Nova Prime produces 2x the heat it can dissipate with it's 12 ermeds, it's not meant to be doing alphas.

I'd love to see ghost heat removed, but without a proper heat scale, it's a serious problem with letting Mechs fire a LOT more than they should be able to, hence the hexStalker issue. Firing 6 PPCs in a single alpha should be disaster for the Mech firing them, that's over 2x the heat scale CAP in TT, you aren't just shut down, you've melted half the components in your Mech and fried out the rest of them, not to mention making the PILOT'S blood boil inside his body. With the heat scale system MWO uses, you can get away with firing 6 PPCs at once, you may shut down but you won't be destroying yourself in the process like you should. They need to fix the underlying problems first.

And I can't wait for the HSR fixes incoming, weapon balance is going to be ALL sorts of fubar once we have that, poor Paul, all his balance work will be for naught, exactly as I've been saying all along, fix the HSR, THEN balance the weapons when you can actually see how they work!

[Soy]

Kristov did you know that originally, when PPCs were traveling about 750-900 m/s originally in early beta,

and nobody was using them,

when the Stalker came out people were putting 5-6 on at a time for jokes.

Little did they know that a simple projectile speed would turn that from complete troll murder-suicide joke mech, into... well, something kinda legit. And we [ppl who were already fiddlin w/ PPCs before the velocity buff] were like, oh ****, it is on. My favorite during this period before ghost heat was just 4 PPCs for straight head shotting, but, 3 was really the sweet spot for heavies tbh. Even without ghost heat, more than 3 was just not enough consistent dmg output.

Nobody wants to see 6 PPCs be anything more than "OMG I KILLED A GUY AND EXPLODED LMAO" thing. But 3? Why is someone getting 90 heat from firing 3 PPCs on a Timber, or Awesome, or Exe, etc. I mean, seriously? 90? 90????????????????

NINETY?

I could see like, 60-75. But 90????

Edited by Soy, 27 June 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 26 June 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

So I could feed my children more.

There. I said it.



Unghost 3 PPCs, dammit!

Only on the Awesome and Warhawk. For those I fully support the sentiment.

For you? No 30 PP_FLD poptarting!

[Kristov Kerensky]

Soy, on 27 June 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Kristov did you know that originally, when PPCs were traveling about 750-900 m/s originally in early beta,

and nobody was using them,

when the Stalker came out people were putting 5-6 on at a time for jokes.

Little did they know that a simple projectile speed would turn that from complete troll murder-suicide joke mech, into... well, something kinda legit. And we [ppl who were already fiddlin w/ PPCs before the velocity buff] were like, oh ****, it is on. My favorite during this period before ghost heat was just 4 PPCs for straight head shotting, but, 3 was really the sweet spot for heavies tbh. Even without ghost heat, more than 3 was just not enough consistent dmg output.

Nobody wants to see 6 PPCs be anything more than "OMG I KILLED A GUY AND EXPLODED LMAO" thing. But 3? Why is someone getting 90 heat from firing 3 PPCs on a Timber, or Awesome, or Exe, etc. I mean, seriously? 90? 90????????????????

NINETY?

I could see like, 60-75. But 90????

I was a user of the PPCs and ERPPCs at the time as well Soy, I still use them on occasion, but the ghost heat makes the 3 PPC/ERPPC builds pointless, and that's what I happen to prefer. 2 of them, IS versions, shouldn't be that much heat, it's only 10/shot after all, so 3 should have you at the heat cap when fired, and dissipation should make it doable, once in a while but not constantly, which is why the Awesome and Warhawk use volley fire, 2/1/2/1 or 2/2/1/1/2, as they can handle that kind of heat without any problem. Try that NOW and what happens? We both know, it's a mess, you overheat and shutdown, you SHOULDN'T, but you do.

Again, the underlying issue is the heatcap PGI has used and their answer to blatantly stupid builds by knee jerk over nerfing. The hexStalker should have killed itself the first time it fired, pure and simple, and the problem wouldn't have EVER arisen, but they didn't, they could repeatedly alpha. Heat damage was added, and they should STILL repeatedly alpha without real cost. So Ghost Heat was added and now, well, we're still dealing with the bs introduced by Paul and supported by so many of the LCD population of this game. They, the LCD crowd, are now sick and tired of what they demanded and want it removed, but the underlying issue still exists to it won't be.

Personally, I think it may get WORSE once the HSR fixes go in, more weapons will be hitting, people will start whining about ANYTHING being used in more than a singular case, I'm willing to bet on that happening, this community is TOO predictable when it comes to them dying. I think we may see ghost heat reapply to LL and ERL for the IS, and everything else may get the numbers that start the ghost heat dropped, so 4 or 2 for everything applies. Paul isn't subtle and the playerbase whines way too much, too loudly, too quickly.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 28 June 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

I was a user of the PPCs and ERPPCs at the time as well Soy, I still use them on occasion, but the ghost heat makes the 3 PPC/ERPPC builds pointless, and that's what I happen to prefer. 2 of them, IS versions, shouldn't be that much heat, it's only 10/shot after all, so 3 should have you at the heat cap when fired, and dissipation should make it doable, once in a while but not constantly, which is why the Awesome and Warhawk use volley fire, 2/1/2/1 or 2/2/1/1/2, as they can handle that kind of heat without any problem. Try that NOW and what happens? We both know, it's a mess, you overheat and shutdown, you SHOULDN'T, but you do.

Again, the underlying issue is the heatcap PGI has used and their answer to blatantly stupid builds by knee jerk over nerfing. The hexStalker should have killed itself the first time it fired, pure and simple, and the problem wouldn't have EVER arisen, but they didn't, they could repeatedly alpha. Heat damage was added, and they should STILL repeatedly alpha without real cost. So Ghost Heat was added and now, well, we're still dealing with the bs introduced by Paul and supported by so many of the LCD population of this game. They, the LCD crowd, are now sick and tired of what they demanded and want it removed, but the underlying issue still exists to it won't be.

Personally, I think it may get WORSE once the HSR fixes go in, more weapons will be hitting, people will start whining about ANYTHING being used in more than a singular case, I'm willing to bet on that happening, this community is TOO predictable when it comes to them dying. I think we may see ghost heat reapply to LL and ERL for the IS, and everything else may get the numbers that start the ghost heat dropped, so 4 or 2 for everything applies. Paul isn't subtle and the playerbase whines way too much, too loudly, too quickly.

why would it have blown up?

It's 60 heat, on a mech with between 26-29 heat dissipation. It packs no ammo, so it has no risk of ammo explosion. Mechs didn't take Internal Damage from heat, and even with PGI's system, it's only 4 over the threshold for autoshutdown. In fact, it would not even stay shutdown for that long, maybe 12 seconds?.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 June 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

why would it have blown up?

It's 60 heat, on a mech with between 26-29 heat dissipation. It packs no ammo, so it has no risk of ammo explosion. Mechs didn't take Internal Damage from heat, and even with PGI's system, it's only 4 over the threshold for autoshutdown. In fact, it would not even stay shutdown for that long, maybe 12 seconds?.

More like 19.4 dissipation Bishop, hexStalkers are hot as hell and have craptacular heat dissipation, so 1 alpha leaves you at 41.6 heat out of 30 for the top of the scale. You can get up to 24 if you go with an XL engine. And people would fire alpha after alpha after alpha in those without any side effects except shutting down when they first showed up. And they weren't shut down for all that long either, due to the wonderfully high heat caps we have in MWO, especially for a fully elited out Mech. Heat damage was added, so they could only do those alphas 4 or 5 times in a row at the time.

It was a problem that should never have existed, proper heat scale and heat effects would remove it, hell just heat effects would remove it, even with the stupidly high heat scales we get in MWO.

Paul's 'fix' was to cause straight CT internal structure damage when you EXCEED the heat scale and ghost heat so that firing more than X of any particular weapon type caused extra heat. Should have just went with a lowered heat scale and having heat effects, including the ones on the pilot. Sure, make it so you can't KILL the pilot but being unconscious for a full minute would definitely eliminate the problem without making heat melt your internal structure and having ghost heat.

Get too hot, reticule shakes all over, speed drops, twist/turn speeds drop, ammo starts to cook off and eventually you are out cold for a full minute. How many people would be firing 6 PPCs with those side effects? They'd CARRY them, but they wouldn't be doing alphas except as a last ditch do or die move. And we could effectively carry and use 3 PPCs or ERPPCs as we should be able to do without using them a few times and melting our own CT's down from the inside out.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kristov Kerensky, on 28 June 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

More like 19.4 dissipation Bishop, hexStalkers are hot as hell and have craptacular heat dissipation, so 1 alpha leaves you at 41.6 heat out of 30 for the top of the scale. You can get up to 24 if you go with an XL engine. And people would fire alpha after alpha after alpha in those without any side effects except shutting down when they first showed up. And they weren't shut down for all that long either, due to the wonderfully high heat caps we have in MWO, especially for a fully elited out Mech. Heat damage was added, so they could only do those alphas 4 or 5 times in a row at the time.

It was a problem that should never have existed, proper heat scale and heat effects would remove it, hell just heat effects would remove it, even with the stupidly high heat scales we get in MWO.

Paul's 'fix' was to cause straight CT internal structure damage when you EXCEED the heat scale and ghost heat so that firing more than X of any particular weapon type caused extra heat. Should have just went with a lowered heat scale and having heat effects, including the ones on the pilot. Sure, make it so you can't KILL the pilot but being unconscious for a full minute would definitely eliminate the problem without making heat melt your internal structure and having ghost heat.

Get too hot, reticule shakes all over, speed drops, twist/turn speeds drop, ammo starts to cook off and eventually you are out cold for a full minute. How many people would be firing 6 PPCs with those side effects? They'd CARRY them, but they wouldn't be doing alphas except as a last ditch do or die move. And we could effectively carry and use 3 PPCs or ERPPCs as we should be able to do without using them a few times and melting our own CT's down from the inside out.

First 10 are TrueDubs, and thus 20. Then one can squeeze in 6 more with a std 255 and Endo. 6x 1.4 is 8.4 for 28.4, total. 26 is if you strip 2 out to max armor.

[Mcgral18]

Soy, on 27 June 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Kristov did you know that originally, when PPCs were traveling about 750-900 m/s originally in early beta,

and nobody was using them,

when the Stalker came out people were putting 5-6 on at a time for jokes.

Little did they know that a simple projectile speed would turn that from complete troll murder-suicide joke mech, into... well, something kinda legit. And we [ppl who were already fiddlin w/ PPCs before the velocity buff] were like, oh ****, it is on. My favorite during this period before ghost heat was just 4 PPCs for straight head shotting, but, 3 was really the sweet spot for heavies tbh. Even without ghost heat, more than 3 was just not enough consistent dmg output.

Nobody wants to see 6 PPCs be anything more than "OMG I KILLED A GUY AND EXPLODED LMAO" thing. But 3? Why is someone getting 90 heat from firing 3 PPCs on a Timber, or Awesome, or Exe, etc. I mean, seriously? 90? 90????????????????

NINETY?

I could see like, 60-75. But 90????

While it is excessive ghost heat, 3 PPCs has the same one-shot potential as 2 Gauss rifles; any 30 PP FLD source, really.

While the Gauss ranges from 17-22%, PPCs also requite 2 crits, but PPCs have 6 chances to get crits as opposed to 3 chances of the Gauss.

I guess that gives it a higher chance to decapitate a mech...I think. Theoretically double, but RNGeesus.



When I went to test it, first one decapitated the Cat, but that doesn't mean very much. I'm not going to do it 50 times to get a sample size of 250, I'll just get evidence that it happens.





The ghost heat does get ridiculous, but would you prefer simply not being able to fire them without shutting down, or simply locked out of firing more than 2? (Like more than 2 Gauss)

[DeathlyEyes]

I'd rather them just make them viable by increasing the muzzle velocity. Increase cool down if brawlers can't get in close.

Edited by DeathlyEyes, 28 June 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Also got 2 Atlai dying in one shot with 3cERPPCs; not sure if you need those, as for all intents and purposes they are identical to the SHD video.


It also takes 30 minutes to upload two 5 second clips...I don't understand that. How long does it take for your 5 minute ones?

[Moldur]

Eldagore, on 26 June 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

I want....

to remove GH all together from PPC. There, I said that.

No, I am actually serious. lasers have gotten to a place where they are simply more heat efficient for the same dmg. PPC projectiles are slow, a lot of players won't even run two of them because they prefer lasers of similar tonnage value due to heat and cooldown times, and most importantly, ease of use- point and click.

I mean I dunno, I guess we could leave GH at like 5 or something so the hexaPPC stalkers dont show back up. But really, even a Warhawk i think would have issues doing an alpha strike. And really, even if they could manage, are we really worried about a 40 point(yeah yeah bonus dmg too) alpha anymore, when we have 70+ point laser barf loadouts walking around for similar heat? Yeah ERPPC is longer range.... with slow projectiles that have a high skill floor. I see that as a wash.

I would like to do an "undocumented" experiment like they did with AC2's a little while back, just set GH to 5 in the background and let the small in the know forumites do a test run for some feedback. IMO, being able to fire 4 is not going to be any worse then what we have in game now, just different, and less sustainable to boot.

GET READY

[Ultimax]

Soy, on 27 June 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Kristov did you know that originally, when PPCs were traveling about 750-900 m/s originally in early beta,

and nobody was using them,

when the Stalker came out people were putting 5-6 on at a time for jokes.

Little did they know that a simple projectile speed would turn that from complete troll murder-suicide joke mech, into... well, something kinda legit. And we [ppl who were already fiddlin w/ PPCs before the velocity buff] were like, oh ****, it is on. My favorite during this period before ghost heat was just 4 PPCs for straight head shotting, but, 3 was really the sweet spot for heavies tbh. Even without ghost heat, more than 3 was just not enough consistent dmg output.

Nobody wants to see 6 PPCs be anything more than "OMG I KILLED A GUY AND EXPLODED LMAO" thing. But 3? Why is someone getting 90 heat from firing 3 PPCs on a Timber, or Awesome, or Exe, etc. I mean, seriously? 90? 90????????????????

NINETY?

I could see like, 60-75. But 90????

Listen man, this game's player base and its developers sometimes suddenly lose all reason and logic when it comes to some issues.


Being shot with a 30 point alpha from a poptart is somehow problematic when I'm running around with a 70-80 Laser-Gauss Dire Wolf? It's silly.


But, wait, it gets worse.


You think 3x CERPPC or 3x ER PPCS is bad?







That's right, if you manage to stuff 3x UAC 20s onto the one mech that can actually do it, spend the whole match trying to get into face hug range with your DWF and then open fire with your spread damage, prone to jamming weapons...you get worse ghost heat than 3x CERPPCs at 800m.


Makes sense.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 June 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 28 June 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

Listen man, this game's player base and its developers sometimes suddenly lose all reason and logic when it comes to some issues.


Being shot with a 30 point alpha from a poptart is somehow problematic when I'm running around with a 70-80 Laser-Gauss Dire Wolf? It's silly.


But, wait, it gets worse.


You think 3x CERPPC or 3x ER PPCS is bad?







That's right, if you manage to stuff 3x UAC 20s onto the one mech that can actually do it, spend the whole match trying to get into face hug range with your DWF and then open fire with your spread damage, prone to jamming weapons...you get worse ghost heat than 3x CERPPCs at 800m.


Makes sense.

the difference between those 30 pt Poptarts and 80 pt DWFs?

Somehow or another the DWFs haven't created one overriding, stagnant and boring Meta where 97% of players just stand in place and play pogostick (there being 1% who actually seemed to know how to be mobile whilst poptarting, and about 2% who either couldn't figure it out, or like me, refused to cow to the meta).

As boring as Laservomit is, it's nowhere near as stultifying and mindnumbing as the Year of the Poptart was.

Now that Poptarting really isn't much of a thing anymore, overall, it would be good to see the PPCs revived some, but yeah, I'm one of the Bads who would rather see velocity on them. Since it wasn't GH that pulled them out of favor, but velocity. Yeah, if you are skilled, you can do OK at long range (though you have to hope your opponent is not skilled as anything moving over 70 can pretty easily dodge them at 80 meters or more, and if you can regularly nail lights at that range, you are either playing oblivious bad lights, or a god amongst men)

PPCs are supposed to be Mid to Long Range weapons. GH doesn't remove them from that. Low velocity, effectively does.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

the difference between those 30 pt Poptarts and 80 pt DWFs?

Somehow or another the DWFs haven't created one overriding, stagnant and boring Meta where 97% of players just stand in place and play pogostick

That's because DWFs are one mech from one weight class, and because heavy mechs traveling at 89kph who don't die when you remove a side torso while having top tier fire power exist, or an entire faction of quirked mechs that have different methods of competing.


The same thing would reign in poptarting, but too many people are either unwilling or afraid to just think that perhaps their view of things are outdated and based on a pre-clan metagame.




We are playing in a post-quirkening, post-clan, post-PPC nerf meta-game.


Poptarts would not dominate this game the way they did with their now low-end 30 point alphas, they'd have more competition now.

[Soy]

Well Ultimatum, I can say with some certainty that I've been really putting in effort to change the narrative somewhat. And honestly I'm seeing it having somewhat of an impact in game. It's taken a while for me to get back to where I'm at currently, and I'm still not where I could be, but I am seeing it have a direct tangible impact in what I'm seeing in game. I'm seeing more people run this build over past 2 weeks, more and more and now this weekend I'm seeing almost one other poptart nova per round. Also some Sparkies doin it as well. Some BJs. Some Panthers. But really, the Novas.

Anyways, I was playin with an old acquaintance this past week, some of you may know him, Ryan Steel, and we were speaking loosely on many MWO subjects, and it occurred to us that there are people in this game who innovate, and there are people who imitate. Innovators play the game from an outside the meta box standpoint and influence the game by creating the new **** and dictating narrative. Imitators take that meta and perfect it; they have the last laugh. Who's better...? Well tangibly the imitators, but they wouldn't be imitating **** if not for the people showing new ****, right? Hmm, kinda symbiotic. MavRCK echoed this later on in the talk and said it's basically the truth.

Is this Nova build new, no. But do I see people playing it this way, lol no. At least not til a week or two ago.

Just some food for thought. I don't think I'm trying to push for 3 PPCs to be unghosted directly, but, if it was unghosted, well, I'm prepared. Just havin a laugh about it all I guess. A lot of innovation is pointless or trivial or moot at the end of the day. I can make 20 builds and they're all designed for fun, but if I sniff 1 of them having something special or potentially powerful behind it, I am the type of guy to tinker with that ****. The imitators tinker til something is min/max perfect [not only builds, but technique etc] after they catch wind of the smell.

Edited by Soy, 28 June 2015 - 04:52 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 28 June 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

Well Ultimatum, I can say with some certainty that I've been really putting in effort to change the narrative somewhat. And honestly I'm seeing it having somewhat of an impact in game. It's taken a while for me to get back to where I'm at currently, and I'm still not where I could be, but I am seeing it have a direct tangible impact in what I'm seeing in game. I'm seeing more people run this build over past 2 weeks, more and more and now this weekend I'm seeing almost one other poptart nova per round. Also some Sparkies doin it as well. Some BJs. Some Panthers. But really, the Novas.

Anyways, I was playin with an old acquaintance this past week, some of you may know him, Ryan Steel, and we were speaking loosely on many MWO subjects, and it occurred to us that there are people in this game who innovate, and there are people who imitate. Innovators play the game from an outside the meta box standpoint and influence the game by creating the new **** and dictating narrative. Imitators take that meta and perfect it; they have the last laugh. Who's better...? Well tangibly the imitators, but they wouldn't be imitating **** if not for the people showing new ****, right? Hmm, kinda symbiotic. MavRCK echoed this later on in the talk and said it's basically the truth.

Is this Nova build new, no. But do I see people playing it this way, lol no. At least not til a week or two ago.

Just some food for thought. I don't think I'm trying to push for 3 PPCs to be unghosted directly, but, if it was unghosted, well, I'm prepared. Just havin a laugh about it all I guess. A lot of innovation is pointless or trivial or moot at the end of the day. I can make 20 builds and they're all designed for fun, but if I sniff 1 of them having something special or potentially powerful behind it, I am the type of guy to tinker with that ****. The imitators tinker til something is min/max perfect [not only builds, but technique etc] after they catch wind of the smell.

Guess I should feel kind of good then.

First day the DragonSlayer was released, I was running it with
DRAGON SLAYER
Not sure if you were here still, but it was a HGN/CTF world. And the Pro Concensus was the VTR was crap.
Within 2-3 months the script had changed, and pretty much everyone was running some variant of this. (started with Gauss, but then charge mechanic made it in the words of the Pros, "unplayable". Then it went ac10, then dual 5).

As for the Nova, yeah, most people went with papercut builds. In fact all the "Pros" were basically running 12 SLs of some flavor. Within about 2-3 weeks, I realized the hitboxes of the Nova meant...not ideal for facehugging, at least for me. So I built pretty much all my Nova's around long range. But my Prime?
NVA-PRIME
I freely admit, it hasn't seen a lot of use over the last year. If I was running my Clan Acct, I usually was in Unit drops, which meant Stormcrows. And I spend about 4x more time on my IS acct.

That said, your posts got me to dust it off, and yeah, it's been a blast. Nova has always been my favorite Clan Medium. So, even though I am not using it in the manner I would in previous MW titles, it's still pretty great to use it again.

Poor bloody thing is still 15-20% oversized, but not sure anything will happen for that.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 June 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Awesome can't fire all 3 PPCs without getting into heat issues, volley fire was used to keep up sustained fire.

Wat...

WAT...

WAT.

Bro. Brah, Bruh, Brudda. Brother. Broski. Broseph. The AWS-8Q was an EXTREMELY cool running mech in TT. An alpha generates 30 heat, and it's 28 SHS drop it down to 2. Then it can alpha again, and sit at 4 heat. And then again and sit 6 heat. Then again at 8 heat. And then you just fire two of those PPCs and be back at zero heat.

If it was standing in water, it could alpha every turn until it someone killed it.

But even if PGI did lift the ghost heat on the Awesome to 3, no one would ever play it because it's THAT bad.