70 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 29 June 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

(I'm expecting Fup might provide some color commentary in the form of gifs for my small side rant).

The only gif I can think of for the whole innovation/refinement/etc topic is this:

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 29 June 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

The only gif I can think of for the whole innovation/refinement/etc topic is this:

That's pretty good, but I felt like Bum-Rainbow Cannon Flying Ponies was basically lobbing you a softball right over the plate.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 June 2015 - 02:56 PM.

[Maxx Blue]

I still poptart with some mechs...never stopped actually. I see plenty of other folks do it as well, just not so much on assaults and heavies. Usually it is more mediums or some lights with two PPC's. Heck, I took one of my Nova's from zero to mastered as a 2xcERPPC poptart, and the Sparky I just bought this weekend is rocking 2xPPC's as well. I even got tired of trying to make the LB-10X work on my ENF-4D and just slapped two PPC's in it's left torso for a while! So, it's not like poptarting ever really went away, it just shifted to be being most effective with only two PPC's on smaller, faster mechs. I even gave it a shot on one of my Grashoppers, but it was giving up too much firepower. to keep the mobility and enough heatsinks to have viable backup weapons. So basically, Poptarting never left, it just stopped being all that practical for anything other than light/medium mechs that could only really carry two PPC's anyway. What I don't see is assaults and larger heavies with jump jets carrying more than two PPC's. I don't see phract 3D's and Victors much anymore at all, but the ones I do see usually aren't running PPC's, and I haven't seen many highlanders in ages. So, I can only assume that is what was really pissing people off. No one seems to care much if a 50T mech is poptarting with two PPC's because that never stopped happening. It's just the big guys that could actually make 3xPPC's or 2xPPC's and a ballistic work that people seemed to notice.

So, if we took ghost heat on PPC's back up to three, I doubt you would see it used effectively on anything less than 65T mechs. Even then, you still have to pretty much dedicate the rest of the mech to double heatsinks on a clan mech, and most IS mechs in order to get any sort of useful heat efficiency. You might run into a problem with the IS mechs 90T and up which would be able to do 3xPPC's and a Gauss without huge heat problems, but that would be about it. However, that might be enough of a problem to merit thinking about. That is a 45pt volley that can be repeated several times without overheating. That seems like a place the game has been trying to avoid going. It might be OK on some mechs like the Awesome, but a King Crab with a Gauss and 3 PPC's all stacked on the right side is probably a more dangerous mech than the 2xGauss. 2xPPC version I see frequently right now. I still see enough whining about the 2xGauss,2xPPC builds that I'm not sure you will see much support for an across-the-board change to ghost heat.

I'd be OK with the Awesome and possibly the Warhawk getting quirks to give them higher ghost heat caps on PPC's and ERPPC's respectively due to their stock builds, but I'm not sure upping the GH threshold to 3 PPC's across the board is a great idea. I could also possibly get behind changing the multiplier, on firing that 3rd PPC, depnding on what that change was.

[Rip von Graze]

MeiSooHaityu, on 29 June 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

The duality of the forums...

TTK is too high, we need to find ways to make mechs more durable and last longer in combat so it feels like we are in giant walking robots.

UNGHOST HEAT ALL THE WEAPONS!!!!

lol, just too funny.

Nailed my issue with this whole thread. At times, when playing a Medium it feels like CS and Assaults are using the AWP. I guess I get to wait 15 minutes because a dire star blew my mech apart from across the map. Do I think they should have butt-loads of weapons? Yes. Do I think they need to fire them all at once with no penalty to insta-kill another mech? No.

[Soy]

Ripvan, on 29 June 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Do I think they should have butt-loads of weapons? Yes. Do I think they need to fire them all at once with no penalty to insta-kill another mech? No.

Seems a bit hyperbolic. I mean, I didn't say this. Not even tongue in cheek. So... I guess if this is your issue with the thread, yeah, since it's not what the thread is about, I'd take issue with it as well..?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Soy, on the innovation bit..the day we got the Dire Wolf, my first build was dual Gauss dual ERPPC, the same build I've used in previous MW titles on Clan Mechs, the same build I've used in TT games since the Clans were introduced to TT, the same build I'd used on IS Mechs with both PPCs and ERPPCs as our TT game advanced in the timeline and FASA released new Tech. It's an old build with decades of usage behind it.

We haven't begun to scratch the surface of what can be built, we don't have all the Tech of the CURRENT timeline, much less what's coming in the future. NOTHING you can think of hasn't already been done in either TT or a previous MW title.

How effective it was in it's previous game, that is all that will vary, mechanics differ from TT to MW to MW2 to MW3 to MW4, so viable in one or some isn't viable in others and vice versa.

So there's no real innovation going on in MWO, all we have is refinement based on mechanics, and exploiting those mechanics exactly as we've done since the BattleDroids was released, ain't a new thing, we did it in TT games just as much as it gets done in video games.

[Soy]

I disagree Kristov, but whatever.

When people say "there's no real innovation" that's typically when innovation is right around the corner.

Just gotta stick your head in the clouds and put your hands in the dirt.

Edited by Soy, 29 June 2015 - 04:01 PM.

[Ultimax]

Soy, on 29 June 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

I disagree Kristov, but whatever.

When people say "there's no real innovation" that's typically when innovation is right around the corner.

Just gotta stick your head in the clouds and put your hands in the dirt.

When you "discover" a combination that's already been done before, marketing likes to call that "re-innovation".

[Kristov Kerensky]

Soy, on 29 June 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

I disagree Kristov, but whatever.

When people say "there's no real innovation" that's typically when innovation is right around the corner.

Just gotta stick your head in the clouds and put your hands in the dirt.

It's rather impossible to innovate when you have nothing new you can create due to being limited to existing materials that have been used for over 30 years now in TT and video formats. Exploitation of game mechanics is a given for TT game players, be it BattleTech, Dungeons & Dragons, Star Trek or the Iron Crown Enterprise games, the rules get exploited to hell and back.

I created an IS version of the Clan Piranha years before the Clans were added by FASA, I'm sure lots of other people created them as well. TT has decades of Mech creation and customization on this game, you ain't gonna build something that hasn't been built before. The only thing that will differ is the effectiveness of the build due to game mechanics, that's it. It's not innovation, it's exploitation, which will only be 'new' in that the mechanics change in this game so often due to balance acts. You may well discover some exploit that someone else hasn't yet when they change mechanics or that simply hasn't been documented previously, but innovation, no, that means to create something actually new, you are bug hunting.

[Soy]

Ultimatum X, on 29 June 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

When you "discover" a combination that's already been done before, marketing likes to call that "re-innovation".

Then explain how I put up the trick shot video - showing actual innovation - but ultimately meaningless innovation. No breakthrough.

And it gets twice as many dislikes as likes? I would chalk it up to people being graded by the troll voiceover, but a lotttttttt of responses were "I don't get it" or harping on some other totally unrelated thing in the vid.

In other words, a lot of things that people come up with in this game don't just immediately 'stick' on the wall. Or they do but people don't even see em, the walls big, they're looking at lots of other **** on it.

A lot of innovation is about approach, not about skill or comprehensive understanding. Think outside the box. Think of new ways to aim. New ways to shoot. It's not all about "lemme experiment and see if I can get the most DPS out of this mech ever" or "Ima create a new flanking position for this map". Throw the flank out the window. Throw the position out the window. Do some wild ****. Most of it will vaporize before anything tangible falls into your hand but you never know.

People dislike this ****. They want their balls held from A to B and have everything explicitly laid out.

Now far be it from me to say that Ghost Heat is a good thing cuz it's not explicitly laid out, but even things like Ghost Heat force that meta pressure to divert and go some other direction. It comes out some other way. IE, gauss + laser vomit.

There's not a lot of players who experiment because they spend vast majority of their time and effort on improving the most tangible things. IE, aiming. IE, mech building. They don't spend a lot of time on practicing soaking. They don't spend a lot of time finding their own style, they're too busy learning to successfully imitate what others are doing.

There's no wrong or right with all this, we're just waxing philosophy as far as I know.

PS - kinda related but not really... the one reason I hold exploiters a step above hackers on the "ethical ladder of competitive spirit" is because they're thinking critically.

But then ofc you get imitators if the exploit isn't addressed who just cheese the **** out of it and dump on meta. That's ruinous ****. It's just as bad as having cheaters abound cuz now that culture is permeating and cancerous to those who might be a bit 'slippery' and mobile on their ethical stances. "Oh well this guys been using this broken combo for 2 yrs it hasnt been fixed Im tired of avoiding it so I use it now too"... this isn't innovation it's stagnation around bull ****. And for the record, poptarting isn't wasn't never will be exploiting.

Edited by Soy, 29 June 2015 - 05:12 PM.

[Wildstreak]

No.
TTK was lowered, let's stop boosting it.