68 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Jenner IIC, Hunchback IIC, Orion IIC, and Highlander IIC. The first of what we can assume, given Piranha’s apparently quite dismayingly successful business model, to be many IIC ‘Mech packs offered to Clan players. Clansman second-line tech is coming.

But what else could we potentially get as a IIC? A quick look through Sarna (and my own personal memory) shows…

Oh, let’s just cut right to the point.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rifleman_IIC
http://www.sarna.net...i/Warhammer_IIC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marauder_IIC

All designs whose originals are controlled by Harmony Cluckmothering Gold, and thus designs that will likely never see the light of day in MWO, sadly. That said…the IIC designs generally shift the art, and comprise entire new machines, often at different tonnages, with different enough looks they might well fit in under HG’s nose with a little massaging from Alex, and any significant deviations from the ‘iconic’ art can be forgiven by the IIC conversion, while the Phoenix holders’ overwhelmingly negative response to the possibility of future Phoenix content makes it almost impossible for Russ to justify wrasslin’ HG for some sort of agreement on the Macross Reseens.

Or, to put it in short-version format: it’s quite possible that Clan pilots will see Riflemen, Warhammers, and Marauders available for their use before Sphere pilots do, if Sphere pilots ever do.

Words cannot describe the size of the smack-eating grin on this Warden Clansman’s face right now. I’ve got such great toys to look forward to. Dat Marauder. ‘Course I’m more interested in the Shadow Hawk IIC…but that don’t mean I won’t tromp right out there in my shiny new Phoenix IICs, should Piranha decide to so grace Kerensky’s chosen.

#suckitfreebirths

[El Bandito]

1453 R, on 26 June 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

All designs whose originals are controlled by Harmony Cluckmothering Gold, and thus designs that will likely never see the light of day in MWO, sadly. That said…the IIC designs generally shift the art, and comprise entire new machines, often at different tonnages, with different enough looks they might well fit in under HG’s nose with a little massaging from Alex, and any significant deviations from the ‘iconic’ art can be forgiven by the IIC conversion, while the Phoenix holders’ overwhelmingly negative response to the possibility of future Phoenix content makes it almost impossible for Russ to justify wrasslin’ HG for some sort of agreement on the Macross Reseens.

Nope, HG is not gonna let "IIC" get in their way of lawsuit.

Do their names include Marauder/Archer/Warhammer? Then it is based on the Macross ripoffs, and PGI is cashing in on the name of the classic mechs--which were ripoffs.

HG's logic--which means none of those mechs for all sides.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 June 2015 - 06:15 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Bandito has a point.

Russ mentioned towards the end of the Town Hall, the old trailer for the "Mechwarrior 5" reboot, in that the Warhammer used in it was redesigned, but it was still too similar for the snobs at HG.

The Macross Unseen/Reseen need to be completely redone from the ground up for them to have any chance of seeing the light of day in MWO.

[That Dawg]

its business, buy the rights, or not. I'm sure they said we want X per licence. MWO has the chance to say yes, or no.
Its how it works. nothing to do with snobs, poetic fondness of a tabletop, or classic this that or anything.
Business, someone got there first, or got theirs first, stuck a flag in it, and boom.

Justice for All, and Freedom for $um.

[Alan Davion]

That Dawg, on 26 June 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

its business, buy the rights, or not. I'm sure they said we want X per licence. MWO has the chance to say yes, or no.
Its how it works. nothing to do with snobs, poetic fondness of a tabletop, or classic this that or anything.
Business, someone got there first, or got theirs first, stuck a flag in it, and boom.

Justice for All, and Freedom for $um.

You don't get it,

HG has way too much history with Battletech Mechwarrior, so they will in all likelihood ask for an amount of money that is just beyond what PGI is willing to pay, just to be snobs.

It's what HG has done, and will always do when it comes to the Macross designs in Battletech.

Edited by Alan Davion, 26 June 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[One Medic Army]

That Dawg, on 26 June 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

its business, buy the rights, or not. I'm sure they said we want X per licence. MWO has the chance to say yes, or no.
Its how it works. nothing to do with snobs, poetic fondness of a tabletop, or classic this that or anything.
Business, someone got there first, or got theirs first, stuck a flag in it, and boom.

Justice for All, and Freedom for $um.

Here's the thing though: HG doesn't actually hold the rights. The people they say sold them the rights didn't have them to sell.

They just squat over the IP threatening everyone with lawyers and legal fees to prove it.

Seriously, the Japanese courts have already ruled on the issue, HG is just making it too expensive to be worth proving in North America.

Edited by One Medic Army, 26 June 2015 - 06:40 PM.

[Leone]

But there in lies the problem. "Too Expensive to be worth it."

~Leone, Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand.

[Lyoto Machida]

1453 R, on 26 June 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

All designs whose originals are controlled by Harmony Cluckmothering Gold, and thus designs that will likely never see the light of day in MWO, sadly. That said…the IIC designs generally shift the art, and comprise entire new machines, often at different tonnages, with different enough looks they might well fit in under HG’s nose with a little massaging from Alex, and any significant deviations from the ‘iconic’ art can be forgiven by the IIC conversion, while the Phoenix holders’ overwhelmingly negative response to the possibility of future Phoenix content makes it almost impossible for Russ to justify wrasslin’ HG for some sort of agreement on the Macross Reseens.

Or, to put it in short-version format: it’s quite possible that Clan pilots will see Riflemen, Warhammers, and Marauders available for their use before Sphere pilots do, if Sphere pilots ever do.

Words cannot describe the size of the smack-eating grin on this Warden Clansman’s face right now. I’ve got such great toys to look forward to. Dat Marauder. ‘Course I’m more interested in the Shadow Hawk IIC…but that don’t mean I won’t tromp right out there in my shiny new Phoenix IICs, should Piranha decide to so grace Kerensky’s chosen.

#suckitfreebirths

Stop your lying and misdirection. Phoenix owners not wanting the mechs to be resold had nothing to do with Harmony Gold and everything to do with being promised something and not wanting PGI to go back on their word. It could have been a limited edition pack of Commandos or whatever.

Btw...you can go buy your Phoenix mechs for c-bills now. You can thank me later.

[1453 R]

Phoenix Overlord here, Lyoto. Try again

'Course I've had that argument a hundred times already, no need to rehash it here. Especially with the possibility of superior IIC editions of those old Phoenix classics on the table.

[EgoSlayer]

1453 R, on 26 June 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

Phoenix Overlord here, Lyoto. Try again

'Course I've had that argument a hundred times already, no need to rehash it here. Especially with the possibility of superior IIC editions of those old Phoenix classics on the table.

Except Phoenix mechs have nothing to do with Harmon Gold. They are Dougram mechs (or Crusher Joe for the Locust), not Macross which is the only place HG has any rights, or think they do anyways.

IIC are still going to have the same HG issues as the standard versions, so no joy.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 26 June 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

El Bandito, on 26 June 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Nope, HG is not gonna let "IIC" get in their way of lawsuit.

Do their names include Marauder/Archer/Warhammer? Then it is based on the Macross ripoffs, and PGI is cashing in on the name of the classic mechs--which were ripoffs.

HG's logic--which means none of those mechs for all sides.

HG has no rights to the name of anything in Battletech. Only certain images and the aesthetic design represented in those images, which were at one point used as the visual representation of specific Battletech mechs in various media.

Since FASA lost the rights to those images, it has since continued to produce materials with different images and aesthetic representations for the same mechs without interference from Harmony Gold. FASA and its licensees have produced print materials of all sorts, video games, figurines, etc all with new versions for the aesthetic look of all mechs represented by the Project Phoenix grouping. Harmony Gold hasn't fought these new representations.

The trick here is that NONE of the new representations of these mechs looks anything like the original, such that the visual appearance could ever be confused with those original images. As much as the purists might hate it, FASA (and by extension Microsoft or PGI as licensees) can't ever produce something that looks so much like the originals that it might satisfy them. You can't have a Warhammer with the characteristic launcher on one shoulder and light on the other. No Maruaders with high hips (which don't work in MWO anyway) and the hunched over body.

All of the "reseen" Project Phoenix images haven't caused Harmony to raise their hackles, and should be considered to be fair game for use in MWO. In fact, PGI have already used a bunch of the designs in the previous Project Phoenix mechs without so much as a peep from HG.

PGI is merely gun-shy. Right now, they don't have the resources to fend off even the token fight HG might want to start, even though HG would absolutely lose. Maybe once the game is on Steam, and hopefully has access to more funds, PGI will be more willing to pull the trigger.

[Alan Davion]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 June 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

Stop your lying and misdirection. Phoenix owners not wanting the mechs to be resold had nothing to do with Harmony Gold and everything to do with being promised something and not wanting PGI to go back on their word. It could have been a limited edition pack of Commandos or whatever.

Btw...you can go buy your Phoenix mechs for c-bills now. You can thank me later.

Dude, you really need to read better. He didn't specify whether it was the original Phoenix mechs, or the Macross mechs.

He just said 'future' which could frankly mean either, and really, if holding PGI to its word was so bloody important, why weren't people burning down the forums over all the other decisions PGI has made that people didn't agree with?

3rd person mode for example. I hear there was quite a stink over that. Where were you all then to hold PGI to it's word then?

Honestly, you people who said no to the Phoenix mechs, you need to let it go just as much as you tell people like me to let it go. The more you get all huffed up about it, the more people are going to keep poking the subject.

[El Bandito]

ScarecrowES, on 26 June 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

HG has no rights to the name of anything in Battletech. Only certain images and the aesthetic design represented in those images, which were at one point used as the visual representation of specific Battletech mechs in various media.

Since FASA lost the rights to those images, it has since continued to produce materials with different images and aesthetic representations for the same mechs without interference from Harmony Gold. FASA and its licensees have produced print materials of all sorts, video games, figurines, etc all with new versions for the aesthetic look of all mechs represented by the Project Phoenix grouping. Harmony Gold hasn't fought these new representations.

The trick here is that NONE of the new representations of these mechs looks anything like the original, such that the visual appearance could ever be confused with those original images. As much as the purists might hate it, FASA (and by extension Microsoft or PGI as licensees) can't ever produce something that looks so much like the originals that it might satisfy them. You can't have a Warhammer with the characteristic launcher on one shoulder and light on the other. No Maruaders with high hips (which don't work in MWO anyway) and the hunched over body.

All of the "reseen" Project Phoenix images haven't caused Harmony to raise their hackles, and should be considered to be fair game for use in MWO. In fact, PGI have already used a bunch of the designs in the previous Project Phoenix mechs without so much as a peep from HG.

PGI is merely gun-shy. Right now, they don't have the resources to fend off even the token fight HG might want to start, even though HG would absolutely lose. Maybe once the game is on Steam, and hopefully has access to more funds, PGI will be more willing to pull the trigger.

Which only further enforces my statement that HG will definitely sue PGI. Only reason HG did not sue FASA, is because FASA had the resources to fight back.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 June 2015 - 08:20 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

El Bandito, on 26 June 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

Which only further enforces my statement that HG will definitely sue PGI. Only reason HG did not sue FASA, is because FASA had the resources to fight back.

FASA has never really made money. Once they gave up the original fight over the HG mechs, they've never really had to contest them since. There's been no legal grounds for HG to sue. Would they be crazy enough to try? Sure, maybe. Remember that, in theory, PGI could have the might of Microsoft on it's side, since it's actually Microsoft's ownership of Mechwarrior and the exercise of that ownership that's being interfered with here.

[madhermit]

ScarecrowES, on 26 June 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

FASA has never really made money. Once they gave up the original fight over the HG mechs, they've never really had to contest them since. There's been no legal grounds for HG to sue. Would they be crazy enough to try? Sure, maybe. Remember that, in theory, PGI could have the might of Microsoft on it's side, since it's actually Microsoft's ownership of Mechwarrior and the exercise of that ownership that's being interfered with here.

This. PGI should just get counsel from Microsoft since they are holding the IP anyway, and ask what is actually included in the license they are using. And if HG has a problem with that, PGI should just point them towards MS and let them deal with it.

Microsoft could just buy entire HG and sack everyone...

Edited by madhermit, 26 June 2015 - 10:54 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 June 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

Stop your lying and misdirection. Phoenix owners not wanting the mechs to be resold had nothing to do with Harmony Gold and everything to do with being promised something and not wanting PGI to go back on their word. It could have been a limited edition pack of Commandos or whatever.

Btw...you can go buy your Phoenix mechs for c-bills now. You can thank me later.

I want to touch on the, well frankly stupidity of this for a second.

Outside of Founders, the Phoenix pack is the only pack not still being sold.

Founders mechs not being sold makes sense, as Founders pack was a pre-release pack for people involved, or wanting to be involved, with closed beta. then open beta after.

Phoenix, as a pack, were promised exclusive content for the sale [preorder bonus's like every other pack]... no where in the discussion was it said that the entirety of the pack would be limited time, only the preorder bonus content.

Where as Founder's were told flat out, that the founders event on the whole would last a limited time.

I find it funny how, absolutely hateful and spiteful the Phoenix owners have been over this entire thing, when the only "Exclusives" you guys got, were like, the warhorns and all. The rest of it was never really ment to be timed, and it just makes your pack look archaic when Clan wave 1 is still being sold.

So basically, you just want to keep PGI from making more money off the Phoenix pack... cute.

[Joseph Mallan]

1453 R, on 26 June 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marauder_IIC

I do prefer

to the original work from Victor's studio.

[R Razor]

Flash Frame, on 27 June 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

I want to touch on the, well frankly stupidity of this for a second.

Outside of Founders, the Phoenix pack is the only pack not still being sold.

Founders mechs not being sold makes sense, as Founders pack was a pre-release pack for people involved, or wanting to be involved, with closed beta. then open beta after.

Phoenix, as a pack, were promised exclusive content for the sale [preorder bonus's like every other pack]... no where in the discussion was it said that the entirety of the pack would be limited time, only the preorder bonus content.

Where as Founder's were told flat out, that the founders event on the whole would last a limited time.

I find it funny how, absolutely hateful and spiteful the Phoenix owners have been over this entire thing, when the only "Exclusives" you guys got, were like, the warhorns and all. The rest of it was never really ment to be timed, and it just makes your pack look archaic when Clan wave 1 is still being sold.

So basically, you just want to keep PGI from making more money off the Phoenix pack... cute.

Are your eyes brown by any chance?

[QuantumButler]

Who cares about rehashed IIC mechs, give us stuff like the Grizzly or Kodiak, then I might actually be excited.

[Alan Davion]

R Razor, on 27 June 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

Are your eyes brown by any chance?

Are yours green by any chance?

Because Flash has a point. The venom thrown around by both sides during that Phoenix poll was ridiculous, but the owners who voted no really only showed they were doing so out of greed, especially when the "Too bad, so sad" comments started getting thrown around.

Here's a thought, did any of those Phoenix owners actually sign a real, physical contract when they bought those mechs? And did they sign it in blood by any chance? Because I'm pretty sure there was no physical contract to be signed, but the way some of these people have carried on you'd think there was.