68 replies to this topic

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I honestly doubt the VMI redesigns for the IICs are far enough from the originals to avoid HG being a bag of rabid weasels about it.

If we're going to see the WHM, RFN, and MAD IICs, it's likely going to be the post-Phoenix Project versions, not the VMI versions.

Just as with the older WHM, RFN, and MAD.

I'm kind of curious, at this point, why PGI isn't trying radical redesigns. Even just on these boards, Bishop Steiner (who comes to mind most because I very much like his Marauder redesign) and several others have presented redesigns that are very clearly not Macross material but still fit the lore presented regarding the 'mechs in question, and I'm sure Alex could do the same. It can't just be a matter of 'enough visual similarity', because at that point it could be easily said that the Timber Wolf as it currently is, is 'too close' to the Glaug/Marauder to be acceptable.

By the same rote, why aren't the Reseen versions of at least some of these showing up? Admittedly, some of them are fairly derp, but others aren't bad by any means.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 27 June 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 June 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

We won't see the Unseen, HG sues at the mere thought of them being used by someone else, doesn't matter if they can win or not, they sue and sue and sue.

MW3 and MW4, please notice the distinct LACK of anything Unseen in those games, both put out while MS owned and controlled the IP, even MICROSOFT didn't want to deal with the legal bs that HG pulls about this particular issue.

Now, if MicroSoft didn't want to do that back when they could ignore lawsuits by COUNTRIES, what makes you think it's even remotely a good idea for PGI to try it now?

Actually that's not quite true. Mektek put many of the Unseen/Reseen mechs into their mekpaks. Locust, Wasp, Shadow Hawk, Battlemaster/IIC, Marauder/IIC are the only ones I recall, and HG never did anything with that as far as I'm aware. If there were others please remind me.

It wasn't until M$ was going to charge Mektek an exorbitant fee to keep using MW4, after seeing all the additions/improvements Mektek had made, that they dropped it. Mektek was the best thing that ever happened for MW4, and probably any PC version of any BT/MW game ever. M$ really dropped the ball on that one.

Edited by Alan Davion, 27 June 2015 - 10:39 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Lyoto Machida, on 27 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Give me my Warhammer and Marauder and we'll forget this silly Phoenix pack thing ever happened.

Sadly, not likely to happen any time soon.

Lyoto Machida, on 27 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

1) There was a huge furor over 3rd person and they put it in anyways. Not sure what the playerbase could have done there but I'm open to suggestions.

2) Which mechs from Macross exactly were in the Phoenix pack?

1. Boycott the game. If so much of the playerbase was against it, they should have stopped playing and tried to spread the word around as much as possible. There are always options and solutions.

2. Again, he simply said 'future Phoenix content'. That could mean the current Phoenix mechs that people are still arguing over, or the Macross mechs which have yet to be redesigned, again surprisingly enough, in order to fit MWO's aesthetic mythos.

Lyoto Machida, on 27 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

I don't see how there is any stupidity at all in reference to my post. I personally don't care if they re-release the Phoenix pack as a whole. Give the mechs a different designation (PR or something) and keep the custom geometry and badges off limits and I'd be fine with it...not exactly much work involved. Hell, give the Phoenix Rising pack a second set of badges and colors if you'd like. Not hard to do and would appease both groups but PGI hasn't done it.

I'd have no problem with PGI pulling all the packs from the store eventually, as you can still buy the mechs via MC or c-bills. Or they could release new packs with mechs shuffled around in the packs...or even a la carte packs by total tonnage or something. Think outside the box a little bit.

As far as the designation goes, I'm not sure how PGI's system handles that, if they have to be one letter or there can be more. We simply haven't seen them go that far yet.

The badges I personally don't care for, so that's perfectly fine. But the camo, colors and geometry are likely what people want as far as these mechs. Now, release the camo and colors, heck, even add a 2nd set of colors as you say and I'm willing to bet most people would be okay with this. 2 out of 3 is better than nothing. I personally still want the geometry, but I'm willing to try and find a middle ground.

And finally, this is exactly what I've been trying to say for a long time now. If the Phoenix mechs are to be 'kept sealed' or whatever, it's time to start shutting down the Clan 1/2 and Resistance 1 packages, since all of those base mechs are available for C-Bills just the same as the base Phoenix mechs.

[Escef]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Are yours green by any chance?

Because Flash has a point. The venom thrown around by both sides during that Phoenix poll was ridiculous, but the owners who voted no really only showed they were doing so out of greed, especially when the "Too bad, so sad" comments started getting thrown around.

Here's a thought, did any of those Phoenix owners actually sign a real, physical contract when they bought those mechs? And did they sign it in blood by any chance? Because I'm pretty sure there was no physical contract to be signed, but the way some of these people have carried on you'd think there was.

Accuses others of jealousy, acts jealous. Good job.

I know this is going to blow people's minds and all, but the mechs from Project Phoenix are available for c-bills. The ones that grant c-bill and LP bonuses are generally considered weaker than most of the other available variants.

The only reason re-opening Phoenix sales was considered was because a bunch of fair weather friends wanted the chance to get a top tier pack for cheaper than the clan packs when the Loyalty Reward King Crab was announced. Well, instead PGI released a whole new pack (the first Resistance pack), and it was actually pretty decent and contained a lot of mechs people had been requesting for a long time. And if that wasn't enough, you could also get it with a Urbanmech pre-order as well.

There's no reason to re-open Project Phoenix. There's no reason to leave it shut, either. But it's shut, and without a good reason to re-open it, it should stay that way. A handful of man-children throwing a temper tantrum is not a good reason.

[R Razor]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

And finally, this is exactly what I've been trying to say for a long time now. If the Phoenix mechs are to be 'kept sealed' or whatever, it's time to start shutting down the Clan 1/2 and Resistance 1 packages, since all of those base mechs are available for C-Bills just the same as the base Phoenix mechs.

Except that Clan 1 and 2 and Resistance 1 were never advertised as being available for a limited time.........so no, there is absolutely zero reason to shut those down............unlike say the Phoenix Pack which was in fact advertised and sold as a Limited Time Only package.

Basic reading skills my good man..........PGI and us customers signed a contract when we made our purchase, we agreed to pay the price they asked and they agreed that what we were paying for was not going to be available in the future (so if we wanted it we'd best get on with buying it).

Sadly, the entitlement generation feels that because they either couldn't afford it or didn't know about it they should automatically have the opportunity to buy it anyway...........it doesn't work that way. Chevy is making a limited number of race ready Corvettes........I can't afford one right now but may be able to do so in a year or two.........should I insist that Chevy sell me one just because I couldn't get it today? Absolutely not............it's limited edition for a reason. Same principle applies here despite the value and product being different. A contract was agreed upon and should be adhered to whether the whiners and entitlement seekers like it or not.

[Alan Davion]

R Razor, on 27 June 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Basic reading skills my good man..........PGI and us customers signed a contract when we made our purchase, we agreed to pay the price they asked and they agreed that what we were paying for was not going to be available in the future (so if we wanted it we'd best get on with buying it).

A contract was agreed upon and should be adhered to whether the whiners and entitlement seekers like it or not.

Show me this contract, signed in blood, and I'll believe you. I've not yet had to sign anything with any of the packs I've bought thus far, so, yeah, produce physical proof, until then, no.

[Lyoto Machida]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

1. Boycott the game. If so much of the playerbase was against it, they should have stopped playing and tried to spread the word around as much as possible. There are always options and solutions.

Did you boycott the game after the Phoenix vote went south for you?

And sure...close off the Clan and Resistance packs. Wouldn't bother me any...as I already said, PGI could make a la carte packs that the players could pick and price them based on tonnage purchased or something (with a markup on Clan mechs, of course).

[Peter2k]

The Phoenix pack was advertised as exclusive (yes not all of it, it was also changed in middle or so, the flaming camo was advertised as exclusive as well in the beginning)

I have yet to see any reason on the forums why we should allow PGI to go back on that wording

All in all its just eye candy on the worst variants
Anyone wanting to get in:
Why exactly?

You can buy them for C-Bills
You want to support PGI?
Buy them with MC then, hell I see some new mastery bundles including some for those folks


What's the matter with the: I didn't had money at the time, was somewhere else

In such cases; you went to every store and asked them to get the old deals back that you missed?


I would understand it a little if you couldn't buy those mechs at all

Btw
Did you know the golden mechs have a unique geometry as well
Golden Timber is sold out
Sooo
I should complain why I can't buy that one any more, since it got rounder legs than the other variants?

[R Razor]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Show me this contract, signed in blood, and I'll believe you. I've not yet had to sign anything with any of the packs I've bought thus far, so, yeah, produce physical proof, until then, no.

Don't be an obtuse jerk.........you know that the Phoenix Pack was advertised as limited time only...........and the contract was the purchase of an item offered under the conditions PGI offered it in.........if your college education didn't provide the basic reasoning skills to figure that out without someone finding a screen shot for you then you may want to consider asking for a tuition refund because they hosed you.

[EgoSlayer]

I've got no problem with them not re-releasing the Phoenix pack. I also have no problem with them releasing Phoenix wave 2 with different variants of the mechs with the ( P ) designation. Griffin 2N ( P ) anyone?

[Joseph Mallan]

R Razor, on 27 June 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Actually, there have been plenty of threads and posts by many people calling PGI out for stuff they've done, you just don't see it because it doesn't matter to you since you can't get something someone else has and you don't out of it by whining and crying about it.

You keep saying that insults were hurled by both sides, yet in this thread you are the only one calling people names, in almost every post in fact, so much for education equating to intelligence I suppose.

Nobody in here is to blame for you not having a job when the Phoenix pack was released except for you........Mc Donalds is ALWAYS hiring, if it mattered that much to you then you could have pulled a few shifts there. Stop whining, stop insulting people and grow the hell up.

Which is far far worse than implying poverty or whatever insult you were trying to impart. Here's an Idea... read the last sentence you posted and do the right thing. Delete that post.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 June 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[stjobe]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Show me this contract, signed in blood, and I'll believe you. I've not yet had to sign anything with any of the packs I've bought thus far, so, yeah, produce physical proof, until then, no.

"Signed in blood"? Really?

You don't need to sign a contract physically (much less "in blood") in order to have it be a legally valid contract. It can be a verbal contract, or even just an implied contract. It's still legally binding. However, the one we're talking about here is in writing.

PGI made an offer, in writing, that those that purchased the Phoenix pack would get access to certain items that would not be made available "ever again" after the offer ended.

Those of us who bought the pack accepted this offer by giving PGI money. That´s a fairly standard way of accepting a contract.

And that's really all that's needed for there to have been a contract between us. Offer and acceptance.

The terms of the contract were laid out by PGI and included the "never again" wording. Now I'm not a lawyer, but offering the exact same pack again does seem to be a breach of contract.

Offer a slightly modified pack and you're good to go. It can be the same as the Phoenix pack, apart from it containing any of those items listed as "never again" being made available, since that would be a breach of contract on the original sales. Those items are the (P) 'mechs, their unique geometry and their camo.

Whether any of this would hold up in court I don't know. I sincerely hope it never comes to that.

Edited by stjobe, 28 June 2015 - 04:11 AM.

[Alan Davion]

stjobe, on 28 June 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

"Signed in blood"? Really?

You don't need to sign a contract physically (much less "in blood") in order to have it be a legally valid contract. It can be a verbal contract, or even just an implied contract. It's still legally binding. However, the one we're talking about here is in writing.

PGI made an offer, in writing, that those that purchased the Phoenix pack would get access to certain items that would not be made available "ever again" after the offer ended.

Those of us who bought the pack accepted this offer by giving PGI money. That´s a fairly standard way of accepting a contract.

And that's really all that's needed for there to have been a contract between us. Offer and acceptance.

The terms of the contract were laid out by PGI and included the "never again" wording. Now I'm not a lawyer, but offering the exact same pack again does seem to be a breach of contract.

Offer a slightly modified pack and you're good to go. It can be the same as the Phoenix pack, apart from it containing any of those items listed as "never again" being made available, since that would be a breach of contract on the original sales. Those items are the (P) 'mechs, their unique geometry and their camo.

Whether any of this would hold up in court I don't know. I sincerely hope it never comes to that.

It's called being facetious. The way some of these people have been acting, you'd think they'd signed away their soul, hence the signed in blood comment.

Now, the problem with a 'verbal' contract, is they are the easiest to modify and then it becomes a 'he said, she said' or whatever you want to call it, and it just spirals out of control from there.

Now as I've tried saying many times. The whole 'never again' thing should not have been used in the first place, and I'd like to think PGI knows this and that's why they put up that poll, to try and do the right thing, but the whole 'exclusive' and 'holding PGI to its word' crowd got their panties in a bunch over it, not to mention the people who threw up their arms in disgust over the TBR/SCR thing.

Now as someone mentioned, PGI may try running the poll again, and I sincerely hope they do, but at the same time that risks pissing off even more people and starting an even bigger kerfluffle than this one.

[Sjorpha]

If the phoenix pack was made available again that would mean PGI breaks a promise they have made, that for me is enough to be against it.

Phoenix pack was before my time, I don't have it so this has nothing to do with exclusivity or anything like that.

I simply want PGI to be as trustworthy as possible if I'm going to support them, breaking their word reduces my trust in them each time it happens no matter if that specific promise was a good or bad idea in the first place. It would further damage their reputations and not be worth it.

It's one thing to adjust design goals, game balance and features as needed, no way to avoid that. But compromising a limited offer like founders, phoenix or sold out gold mechs is just sullying yourself for practically zero benefit.

[R Razor]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 June 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

Which is far far worse than implying poverty or whatever insult you were trying to impart. Here's an Idea... read the last sentence you posted and do the right thing. Delete that post.

Actually Joe I wasn't trying to impart any insult at all and I'm honestly not sure how you see on in that post........seriously. I believe that what I posted is accurate, it isn't any other persons fault that someone couldn't afford to buy a pack when it was offered and it is true that in the United States there are ALWAYS jobs available.....maybe not jobs that you can earn a wage to support a family on, but certainly jobs that you can earn some pocket money from, you just have to be willing to make the sacrifices necessary to do those jobs.

Again, I was honestly not trying to insult him or anyone else with that post.

[stjobe]

Alan Davion, on 28 June 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

Now, the problem with a 'verbal' contract, is they are the easiest to modify and then it becomes a 'he said, she said' or whatever you want to call it, and it just spirals out of control from there.

However, the terms of the contract in question is in writing. I've linked to it enough times, so I'm sure you've read it by now.

Alan Davion, on 28 June 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

Now as I've tried saying many times. The whole 'never again' thing should not have been used in the first place

Perhaps not, but then the pack may not have sold as many units as it did - I know at least some people have stated they purchased it just because it was now or never.

None of the following packs have had that wording, so I guess PGI decided the extra sales weren't worth retiring 'mech geometry/camos for.

Alan Davion, on 28 June 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

panties in a bunch

You know, using language like this really doesn't help your arguments; quite the opposite.

The poll question was very simple: "Should we re-open Phoenix Pack to new owners?", with two very simple options: "Yes - open" and "No - closed".

The only barrier to entry was that you had to be a Phoenix owner to vote. There was no rules as to what your motivation was to vote yes or no, nor was the poll about anything but the reopening of the current Phoenix pack.

Anyone that was a Phoenix pack owner could vote, and their reasons and motivations behind their votes was inconsequential.

The vote ended with a 55/45 win for the "No - closed" side.

And that, my friend, is that.

Let it go. It's over.

Alan Davion, on 28 June 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

Now as someone mentioned, PGI may try running the poll again, and I sincerely hope they do

I sincerely hope they don't. It would be a PR disaster of epic magnitude. They've asked once informally and got told no, once formally and got told no again. If they try a third time it won't be pretty.

[Roadkill]

Flash Frame, on 27 June 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

I get people wanting their deal to be exclusive... but really the exclusives in that pack were the preordered bonuses, not the entirety of the pack itself...

Incorrect.

The pre-order bonuses and the (P) variants were the exclusive content.

But only the (P) versions of the variants, which in effect means just the camo pattern and unique geometry. PGI can and does sell non-(P) versions of those Mechs right now for c-bills.

In fact if they wanted to re-work the Phoenix packs slightly and put in non-(P) versions of the Mechs in question, I doubt people would care.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 June 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

As for Keeping our word. I agreed to PGI being able to change what every they deem necessary(ToS) in the game when every they feel its necessary.

You keep saying this, but it isn't true.

The TOS says they have the right to change content as needed.

We all agreed that they can change the (P) variants as needed, but we did not agree that they can change the terms of sale for our purchases of those packages.

The fact that the (P) variants were exclusive was pushed hard during the sale. BUY BUY BUY YOU'LL NEVER GET ANOTHER CHANCE!!!eleven! Some of us think they should abide by their word once in a while, too.

[Sir Wulfrick]

madhermit, on 26 June 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

This. PGI should just get counsel from Microsoft since they are holding the IP anyway, and ask what is actually included in the license they are using. And if HG has a problem with that, PGI should just point them towards MS and let them deal with it.

Microsoft could just buy entire HG and sack everyone...

Agree 100% with both of you. Despite it being fashionable to bash Microsoft, I'm very glad that they own the rights to Battletech. The MS army of lawyers is probably larger than the entire work force at HG and MS could easily drown them in legal warfare whereas PGI has no hope of doing so. The only difficulty is that MS appears to have no interest in developing the Battletech IP in-house. It has after all been more than 10 years since we got the original Mechwarrior 4.

I really do hope that MWO is a great success as it may convince Microsoft to pick up the IP and run with it, either assisting PGI in terms of devs and resources or at the very least squishing HG like the parasitic insect that it really is, thus giving us all the unseen mechs free of greedy IP ********.

[Roadkill]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

If the Phoenix mechs are to be 'kept sealed' or whatever, it's time to start shutting down the Clan 1/2 and Resistance 1 packages, since all of those base mechs are available for C-Bills just the same as the base Phoenix mechs.

I'd be okay if they wanted to start shutting those down as well, but to stick to the real point in the Phoenix vote they don't have to. They never said that the content of those packs would be exclusive, so if they want to keep selling them I'm fine with it.

You may not understand it, and you may not agree with it. And I'm actually fine with both of those things; you have the right to your opinion, too, provided you're civil about it. But for a lot of Phoenix owners, the vote was solely about them keeping their word. For once. Because they've failed so many other times.