48 replies to this topic

[Kiiyor]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2015 - 03:54 AM, said:

Next you gonna tell me no HAGs, either?

Weren't HAG's sand blasters? I want for MWO, imagine the crit seeking...

[Matthew Ace]

Kiiyor, on 27 June 2015 - 03:58 AM, said:

Weren't HAG's sand blasters? I want for MWO, imagine the crit seeking...

In TT, they do damage in 5pt groups rather than 1pt, so they're more like MRMs/LRMs. I'm not PGI but I don't see the likelihood since LRMs don't crit seek here either?

HAGs were described as a multitude of tiny gausses that fired sequentially, so I kinda imagine it's going to be like a 20/30/40-bullet clan AC that requires a charge-up and also has a COF.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 27 June 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Matthew Ace, on 27 June 2015 - 04:00 AM, said:

HAGs were described as a multitude of tiny gausses that fired sequentially, so I kinda imagine it's going to be like a 20/30/40-bullet clan AC that also has a COF.

Russ don't like CoF, so I doubt it.....even though I am that bad "anti-skill" guy who feels they should be situationally in game, anyhow.

I'll just be laughing at the usual grognards who can't be bothered to read up on source material and start crying because "Gauss aren't supposed to make heat!!!!". Especially since they will likely land in the same GH multiplier family as AC20s.

My only question....for every sub projectile, do I need to hold to charge?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 June 2015 - 04:04 AM.

[Matthew Ace]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

My only question....for every sub projectile, do I need to hold to charge?

Oh my god, that will be hilarious, if not impossible.

[Kiiyor]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

Russ don't like CoF, so I doubt it.....even though I am that bad "anti-skill" guy who feels they should be situationally in game, anyhow.

I'll just be laughing at the usual grognards who can't be bothered to read up on source material and start crying because "Gauss aren't supposed to make heat!!!!". Especially since they will likely land in the same GH multiplier family as AC20s.

My only question....for every sub projectile, do I need to hold to charge?

Imagine if they fired in a burst like the GAU-8

BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 June 2015 - 03:54 AM, said:

Binary Lasers, Rotary Autocannons, etc.

Having unique tech on both sides, is part of what makes the factions unique. You think that the Clans are envious of IS Autocannons? "But clans have std ACs too!!!!" you say? Yes, but theirs are burst fire, IS has PP-FLD. So they have the same tech in name only.

Opposing militaries should have divergent weaponry. It adds flavor.

But there is very little unique. Everybody has the same gun with a different name or, for IS, multiple guns trying to emulate a single gun on the Clan side but all falling short in some critical way. The Clan answers are always more efficient. Thematically, that's neat. Mechanically, it's bullsh*t, especially when the item in question is totally new and originated with the Inner Sphere. C-RAC ought to be completely inferior; inferior weight and inferior range, not just inferior slot allocation. Just like IS UAC are completely inferior and IS ERPPC are completely inferior and IS ER lasers are completely inferior.

You might have a case if at least some of these IS options were actually flat-out superior to their Clan counterparts when taken in MWO terms (speculate where applicable):

Spoiler

Rotaries -----> Clan Rotaries

LMG/MG/HMG -------> C-LMG/MG/HMG

Binary Laser -----> Heavy Large Laser

Bombast Laser ------> Small and Medium Heavy Laser/C-ERML x1.7

X-Pulse/Variable-Speed Pulse ------> Clan Pulse

Heavy Gauss ----> Hyper Assault Gauss

MagShot ---> AP Gauss

All those PPC variants ------> trying real hard to be a C-ERPPC

Light Gauss ------> really bad substitute for C-Gauss

MML -------> ATM

UAC ------> C-UAC

LB-X/standard AC/Light AC -------> C-LB-X

Mech Mortars --------> Clan Mech Mortars

ELRM -----> ???

Thunderbolt ------> ???

Silver Bullet Gauss --------> ???

HVAC -------> ???

??? ---------> ER Pulse

??? -------> Proto AC

??? --------> Streak LRM

The PPFLD argument is also incredibly weak; always has been.

TELEFORCE, on 27 June 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

On table top that is not true. The Clan ER Pulse Lasers only had a -1 to-hit modifier, rather than the -2 offered by the standard Clan Pulse Lasers. They also generated more heat. Look at the ER Large Pulse Laser, for example.

This would translate to a burn time between the Clan Large Pulse Laser and the Clan ER Large Laser in MWO, while building up more heat than a Clan ER Large Laser and about the same range as the ER Large.

So basically you are trading accuracy for range and a heat gain.

I'm looking straight at Sarna stats as I type this. In TT, the ER Pulse have a long range of 14 while standard Clan Pulse are at 12. IS Pulse sit at a measely 6 and X-Pulse are at 9. There are no accuracy mechanics in MWO; that's why Pulse are given more damage.

After PGI tweaks it, since they don't do direct stat imports, a C-ER MPL is going to translate into a 2 ton Medium laser that generates 7 or 8 points of heat doing 8 damage at ~400 meters with a burn time of about 0.9 seconds. It out-classes standard C-MPL in smaller groups and is even a tempting choice over the C-ERML. As if the standard IS LL wasn't marginalized enough...

If it had a burn the same as or longer than the C-ERML's 1.15 seconds, nobody would ever take it.

Medium X-Pulse, on the other hand, only caps at 270 meters, doing boatloads of heat for the same 6 damage and a duration that will likely sit closer to 0.75 seconds. I am so very excited to have a 5-6 heat pulse laser that lets me shoot things at standard MedLas ranges! The sad part is that actually does sound exciting as an IS player, a testament to how bloody terrible IS lasers are without quirks and how aggressive these quirks are to try and compensate.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 June 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

But there is very little unique. Everybody has the same gun with a different name or, for IS, multiple guns trying to emulate a single gun on the Clan side but all falling short in some critical way. The Clan answers are always more efficient. Thematically, that's neat. Mechanically, it's bullsh*t, especially when the item in question is totally new and originated with the Inner Sphere. C-RAC ought to be completely inferior; inferior weight and inferior range, not just inferior slot allocation. Just like IS UAC are completely inferior and IS ERPPC are completely inferior and IS ER lasers are completely inferior.

You might have a case if at least some of these IS options were actually flat-out superior to their Clan counterparts when taken in MWO terms (speculate where applicable):

Spoiler

Rotaries -----> Clan Rotaries

LMG/MG/HMG -------> C-LMG/MG/HMG

Binary Laser -----> Heavy Large Laser

Bombast Laser ------> Small and Medium Heavy Laser/C-ERML x1.7

X-Pulse/Variable-Speed Pulse ------> Clan Pulse

Heavy Gauss ----> Hyper Assault Gauss

MagShot ---> AP Gauss

All those PPC variants ------> trying real hard to be a C-ERPPC

Light Gauss ------> really bad substitute for C-Gauss

MML -------> ATM

UAC ------> C-UAC

LB-X/standard AC/Light AC -------> C-LB-X

Mech Mortars --------> Clan Mech Mortars

ELRM -----> ???

Thunderbolt ------> ???

Silver Bullet Gauss --------> ???

HVAC -------> ???

??? ---------> ER Pulse

??? -------> Proto AC

??? --------> Streak LRM

The PPFLD argument is also incredibly weak; always has been.

In that spoiler, I think that the Protomech ACs are somewhat analogous to Light ACs, given that the role of both is to have much better damage-per-ton at the cost of range.

Silver Bullet Gauss might work sorta similar to the HAG20 but a lot crappier, given that both use the cluster-hits table (nevermind that HAGs are technically rapid-firing Gauss-MGs while the SB is a buckshot).

Clans don't need HVACs because their normal ballistics get a range bonus as it is.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 June 2015 - 03:51 AM, said:

I mean it should not be in the game, ever, regardless of time period. X-Pulse brings some parity for the IS to standard Clan Pulse.The ER Pulse, however, raises the bar again. Variable Speed pulse lasers have the same range profile as X-Pulse and standard lasers, and are just an alternative (and heavier) answer to standard Clan Pulse instead of X-Pulse.

There is nothing to compete against ER Pulse. It's power-creep and, unlike where we are now, there is no hope of an eventual rough parity.

Looking at the Sarna stats, I think that the ER Pulses are actually pretty mediocre compared to normal Clan Pulses.

ERSPL: 1.5 tons instead of 1 ton, heat will have to be inflated to 4, dunno what they'll do with range and damage (this weapon had the same range as the regular Clan SPL, just with 1 point more damage)

ERMPL: Heat inflated to at least 7-8 because MPL heat is inflated, takes up 2 critslots instead of 1, but hey at least the range would be good assuming PGI doesn't reduce it like they did for the regular MPL

ERLPL: 3 critslots instead of 2, 13 heat instead of 10, the range boost to 690m seriously isn't worth the +30% heat


Also note that all of them only have a -1 to-hit modifier compared to the -2 to-hit on regular pulses, thus making them less accurate. This means longer beam duration in MWO terms.

There is a lot of Power Creep in BT, but I think that Clan ER Pulses actually are somewhat worse than their regular Clan counterparts. The ERMPL might be okay (depending on range) but the other two...not so much.

Edited by FupDup, 27 June 2015 - 07:02 AM.

[Matthew Ace]

FupDup, on 27 June 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

Looking at the Sarna stats, I think that the ER Pulses are actually pretty mediocre compared to normal Clan Pulses.

ERSPL: 1.5 tons instead of 1 ton, heat will have to be inflated to 4, dunno what they'll do with range and damage (this weapon had the same range as the regular Clan SPL, just with 1 more point of damage.

2 point of damage actually; cSPL does only 3 damage, while cERSPL does 5.

I'm gonna make a guess and say 7 or 8 damage in MWO.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 27 June 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[FupDup]

Matthew Ace, on 27 June 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

2 point of damage actually; cSPL does only 3 damage, while cERSPL does 5.

Oh, whoops.

If PGI inflated the ERSPL to 8 damage, then, that would be pretty funny I think.

[SirLANsalot]

Kiiyor, on 27 June 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

Imagine if they fired in a burst like the GAU-8

BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP

Thats what I imagine the HAGs will fire like, charge once to charge all the chambers, and then BRAAAP at the target.

However the HAG comes much later in the years, but will be fun when it comes.

[Bishop Steiner]

SirLANsalot, on 27 June 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Thats what I imagine the HAGs will fire like, charge once to charge all the chambers, and then BRAAAP at the target.

However the HAG comes much later in the years, but will be fun when it comes.

that's what I want RAC5s to be like. Shame we will almost certainly never get to the point where we have C-RACs. Dual RAC5 HBK-IIC would make daddy very happy.

[LordNothing]

i kind of want more button down hold-to-fire ballistics that work like machine guns, but heavier (and with projectiles, none of that hit scan crap). racs could fill that role quite well. all the tapping is really messing with my wrist nerves and joints.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 June 2015 - 01:09 PM.

[TWIAFU]

Kiiyor, on 26 June 2015 - 10:58 PM, said:

When do ATM missiles rear their heads? Weren't they 3055?

And enhanced and extended LRM's? Or were they experimental?

Also, Snub Nose PPC's? Yum.

Might be thinking of the new ammo for SRM/LRMs, Inferno round.

[Trev Firestorm]

SirLANsalot, on 27 June 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

MRM's come in bigger packs then SRMs. So if you leave the groups the same, there is still plenty of reasons to take one or the other. MRMs are heavier but deal more damage due to the bigger sizes, 10/20/40, but will suffer from volley fire for balance sake, probably in groups of 10 missiles per a "volley".
I forget the tonnages of MRMs but even a MRM 10 is heavier and bigger (crit wise) then an SRM 6.

Also MRM deals 1 damage per a missile (like an LRM), so there sizes equate to there damage, 10/20/40.

So there will be plenty of reasons to take MRMs.





Clan ER Pulse were experimental guns, but PGI doesn't seem to have much of an issue giving us "experimental" mech chassis that there were only a few of. So it would stand to reason to give us experimental weaponry too for the timeline.
IS DO have a type of ER pulse and those are the X-Pulse lasers, as both IS and Clan were trying to make ER types of pulse lasers at almost the same time, but the IS came up with a slightly different way of doing it.


Overall I look forward to a time jump and getting some nice new toys to play with.

MRM 10 can swap with srm 6 directly (same tonage/crits)

[Kristov Kerensky]

Can we just avoid the whole Church of the Munchkin weapons thing? Please? We've already got people complaining left and right about the alphas we can put out NOW, what will it be like with half the weapons you guys are talking about, the LOWER damage half at that?

FASA jumped the shark with the Clans, lets not set the motocycle AND shark AND the water all on fire by adding the bs weapons that were added later, please.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

One of the big things about MRMs is an MRM-20/40 will be GREAT for missile point starved mechs like the Vindicator, Treb 5J, some of the Zeuses, Battlemasters, and Atlai.

[SirLANsalot]

Trev Firestorm, on 27 June 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

MRM 10 can swap with srm 6 directly (same tonage/crits)

So it is, even Sarna states it was made to be swappable with the SRM 6.

However that still doesn't invailidate the argument any. Since the others are quite heavy, MRM 20 being 7 tons @ 4 crits and the MRM 30 being 10 tons @ 5 crits and the 40 being the biggest of them all 12 tons @ 7 crits.

So the SRM6 and MRM 10, people will have some choices there to decide on which one to take. Which is a GOOD thing.

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 June 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Can we just avoid the whole Church of the Munchkin weapons thing? Please? We've already got people complaining left and right about the alphas we can put out NOW, what will it be like with half the weapons you guys are talking about, the LOWER damage half at that?

FASA jumped the shark with the Clans, lets not set the motocycle AND shark AND the water all on fire by adding the bs weapons that were added later, please.

suck it up buttercup, there a part of the game.

[Armorine]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 June 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Can we just avoid the whole Church of the Munchkin weapons thing? Please? We've already got people complaining left and right about the alphas we can put out NOW, what will it be like with half the weapons you guys are talking about, the LOWER damage half at that?

FASA jumped the shark with the Clans, lets not set the motocycle AND shark AND the water all on fire by adding the bs weapons that were added later, please.

Your gonna cry like a little girl when the fanfnir and heavy gauss hits the ground. That mech and weapon system was a absolute monster. On a side note the heavy gauss is a beautiful match for the Zeus. Really brought that chassis to life in mw4 when they mated them together. Lrm shower at range. Wrath of god inside 600 meters.

[Bloodweaver]

QuantumButler, on 27 June 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

Or mrms could be made to be mechanically different, semi-guided, flat trajectory, will home in on whatever your cursor is currently pointing at, like in Living Legends.

no locking on, and this would make using them at longer ranges a skill based thing.

It's the other way around - SRMs should be guided. Just not very well. MRMs are supposed to be completely dumb-fire, SRMs aren't.