228 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

TWIAFU, on 22 July 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Well, Russ did say he want these broken up Units to move into other Factions.

If only people actually operated like this...

It's almost as if some people were out of touch.

Right now the incentives favor Clans, and right now, if it were decided that Wolf got squat and like Ghost Bear got serious dough, at least you'd see more action from GB than they currently do right now (which is close to nil).

But, you know... this is PGI.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 July 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Splitting groups and making them play other places will never happen. Ever. They are not groups by accident, they do not play together as part of some random telemetry metric. They are people who choose to play together.

The very concept is so far off from human behavior that it makes me blink and {LT-MOB-25} my head every time I read it. 'Hey, if we can get people to not act like people we can achieve perfect game balance! Let's give playing with friends Ghost Heat! THE PERFECT SOLUTION ACHIEVED'.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

This ...

Quote

Let's give playing with friends Ghost Heat! THE PERFECT SOLUTION ACHIEVED'.

... is a brilliant quip. Thank you.

I do not envy PGI's job of trying to balance Mech Warfare, with 30 years of table top lore and rules ... but I especially do not envy their job of trying to balance Community Warfare, with everything from ...

• solo players (who want everything except "community" -- I guess what they really need is a single-player campaign), to
  
• small groups of IRL friends/family (who don't want to play with anyone else -- I guess what they really need is a co-op mode), to
  
• loyalist units (who in some cases have been together for decades -- I guess what they really need is a persistent table top campaign), to
  
• mercenary units (who are just looking to have really, really good fights and get some bragging rights when they win -- I guess what the really need is a giant stompy robot MOBA), to
  
• gaming groups that happen to play MechWarrior (who in some cases have been dominating the real "meta game" in other titles for years -- I guess what they really need is to have a miniature government to subvert and overturn ... looking at you WoL/NKVA), to
  
• conglomerates formed of numerous smaller units (who, at the lower levels, just want to be part of something bigger, but at the upper levels -- I guess what they really need is to have a miniature populace to rule over for their own megalomaniacal ends).

Ultimately, PGI needs to define the borders of what they want to accomplish, because if they try to keep all of their players happy all of the time, they're going to fall short of the mark every time.

[MischiefSC]

The problem is that you don't balance that. You don't balance it at all; you can't.

What you do is give people reasons to play (make worlds mean something and territory mean something, also faction membership mean something) and make it pay better than pug/group queue (when you win), then give long term benefits to loyalists (have them gain points from worlds their faction has taken and kept) and short term benefits to mercs (bonus cbills for matches won and worlds taken) and suddenly you have enough population spreading out in the game to wash out the population disparity of individual groups.

Groups like MS are viewed as a problem because they're like 10% of the total active population when they all show up for an event, which is a huge shift. Make them 1% or even 0.5% and suddenly it's not the same issue. Compound that with mercs being HIRED by Loyalist units to a given faction (using stockpiled loyalty points) and suddenly these issues cease to be issues.

Not to mention that the ghost drop mechanic is, if at all possible, worse than the prior one. There are some significant mechanics issues to deal with still but this is a critical one.

[Stikyard]

I guess my only question is, why are so many people piling up on the same factions to play together, while we all know CW population is low?

If your group is filled with inactive members, just rotate them out. If they want to become active again, they will contact you.

[Celtic Warrior]

Who wants to join Clan Ghost Bear? No one that wants to play CW because they don't participate and can't field groups. Who wants to join JF, Wolf, Kurita, Davion, Stiener? Many do because they field many groups and players can get drops quickly because they can field many groups. If you split up these large groups then it makes it harder for people to get 12 man drops going.

[50 50]

There are a lot of changes that need to happen to build CW into something epic.
I feel that there are a lot of players out there that want to be involved in the mode, but as it currently doesn't offer much more than what you get from a standard match, it's not as appealing.

The population hopping between the factions is a direct result of the loyalty system and the way contracts work.
Can't blame the units for jumping about.
Being on a permanent contract is more of a hindrance as it restricts your earnings.
But that's got nothing to do with unit caps or trying to split up the large groups.

I feel that the reason that whole idea came up is to even out the conflict over the map instead of having it exaggerated on one or two factions.
It's interesting to see from the stats that it was only 1/4 to 1/2 of most units that got involved in the last event.
If all those members were on at the same time, they were fielding several companies of mechs regularly.
Even if the groups were broken up, the numbers suggest they would still be able to get several full companies together for a battle, or at least make up the majority of one.
At the moment while the population numbers are low, it would make sense to split the groups up so there can be more activity around the map instead of it being concentrated in a couple of areas.

There have been some good comments and discussion going on from some of the MS players that they would like to see more people in CW. They want to share the knowledge and the skills etc. That's to be applauded.
However, smaller groups that want to be involved in CW, don't want to be absorbed in as part of the larger conglomerate and just get lost in the masses. They may not want to hop around from faction to faction either, and would they really be improving much if the battles are one sided or so 'elite' that they are literally cannon fodder?
Smaller, less organised, less experienced groups will not learn as much facing off against a good 12 man team and will no doubt take it as a bad experience.

I'm going to use a sport analogy. (Rugby in this case)
If you throw a minnow team like Canada in against a team like the All Blacks it's an embarrassing annihilation.
But if you took half of each of those players from both teams and swapped them over, you will see a vastly different game.
Sure, there will be the elite players on each side standing out, but the minnows get to follow their example instead of be overwhelmed by it. The experience and knowledge gained is vastly better.

And that's what I humbly believe needs to be considered for CW before some silly cap is thrown in that peeves everyone off.
We divide ourselves up so we can field regular lances.
Spread out over the factions or at least to different planets so that the conflicts even out and more games are created.
Get the other units up to speed and then as they grow and improve and the game population expands, you back off and regroup.
The big units are seen as the leaders in the game. Other units want to aspire to what you have achieved.
We've got nothing to lose by trying and it's better to take the initiative than have something forced on us.
Consider it.
It's really in our hands.

[Wildstreak]

If Russ wants Factions to become more even in population, address core problems first.

Problem #1 - No Reason to be a Loyalist
Economic & Reward System favors Mercs, end result more people go Merc.
PGI changes rewards to encourage others to join low population Factions, Teams move from one Faction to another resulting in Large Population Faction Flavor of the Moment.

Beta 1 had GB as the big Clan Faction, now it is either Falcon or Wolf.

Fix the Core Issue first, see what happens then look into team breakups if needed.

[StUffz]

Wildstreak, on 24 July 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

If Russ wants Factions to become more even in population, address core problems first.

Problem #1 - No Reason to be a Loyalist
Economic & Reward System favors Mercs, end result more people go Merc.
PGI changes rewards to encourage others to join low population Factions, Teams move from one Faction to another resulting in Large Population Faction Flavor of the Moment.

Beta 1 had GB as the big Clan Faction, now it is either Falcon or Wolf.

Fix the Core Issue first, see what happens then look into team breakups if needed.

Speak for yourself please. The problem are not the loyalists but Merc Groups double or triple the size of members of a loyalist unit. In general all Factions should have a base amount of players. There is no logic reason that a merc unit is bigger than house unit.

One note here. There should be an option that if there are cross faction attack/defend those who defend those system get the loyalty points the current planet belongs to.

Edited by StUffz, 24 July 2015 - 08:25 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

No desire to dig through 10 pages but how about a scaling cost per active unit member. This cost would be implemented per how much each player in a given unit could earn per drop.

bah never mind, as I type i realize this will just result in multiple groups of the same unit dropping in synch on a given world.

Thorny problem this is

[AdamBaines]

Gremlich Johns, on 28 June 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

LOLZ!! Now PGI wants to limit how many teams can play their Beta game.

I'm a bit late to this discussion....so pardon if I dont quite get your response, but.....

How is PGI limiting Unit size limiting the number of teams that can play?

[Sazabi Steppenwulfe]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 22 July 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

This ...

... is a brilliant quip. Thank you.

I do not envy PGI's job of trying to balance Mech Warfare, with 30 years of table top lore and rules ... but I especially do not envy their job of trying to balance Community Warfare, with everything from ...

• solo players (who want everything except "community" -- I guess what they really need is a single-player campaign), to
  
• small groups of IRL friends/family (who don't want to play with anyone else -- I guess what they really need is a co-op mode), to
  
• loyalist units (who in some cases have been together for decades -- I guess what they really need is a persistent table top campaign), to
  
• mercenary units (who are just looking to have really, really good fights and get some bragging rights when they win -- I guess what the really need is a giant stompy robot MOBA), to
  
• gaming groups that happen to play MechWarrior (who in some cases have been dominating the real "meta game" in other titles for years -- I guess what they really need is to have a miniature government to subvert and overturn ... looking at you WoL/NKVA), to
  
• conglomerates formed of numerous smaller units (who, at the lower levels, just want to be part of something bigger, but at the upper levels -- I guess what they really need is to have a miniature populace to rule over for their own megalomaniacal ends).

Ultimately, PGI needs to define the borders of what they want to accomplish, because if they try to keep all of their players happy all of the time, they're going to fall short of the mark every time.

nothing happens over night but i think you're on the right track. Battletech/Mech Warrior is an ambitious title for any game developer to take on; decades of lore, tech readouts and ravenous fans.

we must learn patience

[Wildstreak]

StUffz, on 24 July 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

Speak for yourself please. The problem are not the loyalists but Merc Groups double or triple the size of members of a loyalist unit. In general all Factions should have a base amount of players. There is no logic reason that a merc unit is bigger than house unit.

One note here. There should be an option that if there are cross faction attack/defend those who defend those system get the loyalty points the current planet belongs to.

I did thanks.
Big Merc units would become Big Loyalist units if there was a reason to be a Loyalist.
Until there is a reason to be a Loyalist and see where Big Teams choose to go, breaking up teams is too soon.
There is also nothing to prevent smaller teams forming loose alliances that continue to shift as Mercs acting like a Big Unit without looking like one.

[Kin3ticX]

Deathlike, on 22 July 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

If only people actually operated like this...

It's almost as if some people were out of touch.

Right now the incentives favor Clans, and right now, if it were decided that Wolf got squat and like Ghost Bear got serious dough, at least you'd see more action from GB than they currently do right now (which is close to nil).

But, you know... this is PGI.

Exactly this

Old faction rewards (we should have dynamic rewards actually).

Not enough active players to populate 10 factions. Despite the higher rewards for all Clans, GB is on cold storage.

[TWIAFU]

Kin3ticX, on 25 July 2015 - 01:45 AM, said:

Exactly this

Old faction rewards (we should have dynamic rewards actually).

Not enough active players to populate 10 factions. Despite the higher rewards for all Clans, GB is on cold storage.

Just burnt my lip on some coffee and then it hit me!

Increasing rewards for Loyalists the longer they are loyal.

We get X amount of LP now. Say that amount goes up by X% the longer you are Loyal to the Faction?

+5%, +15%, +15%, and so on for every set amount of time that passes. Switch Factions and that bonus goes to zero. Come back and still at zero.

[Joseph Mallan]

I'm sorry why would any Merc Company want to be restricted to 1 Battalion?

And how is it "fair"?

[TWIAFU]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

I'm sorry why would any Merc Company want to be restricted to 1 Battalion?

And how is it "fair"?

It's "fair" because then anyone who plays CW will not have to face one Unit of 'mercs, but many, smaller groups of the same merc Unit.

It's "fair" because the map of Known Space will not be dominated by one Unit of mercs. It will be dominated by one Unit of Mercs with a number after the tag. That number makes all the difference! So long as [EvilUnit] is not in control of everything and [EvilUnit1] and [EvilUnit2] is, that's fair.

Clear as mud how well this is going to work Joe.

[Kin3ticX]

TWIAFU, on 25 July 2015 - 02:43 AM, said:

Just burnt my lip on some coffee and then it hit me!

Increasing rewards for Loyalists the longer they are loyal.

We get X amount of LP now. Say that amount goes up by X% the longer you are Loyal to the Faction?

+5%, +15%, +15%, and so on for every set amount of time that passes. Switch Factions and that bonus goes to zero. Come back and still at zero.

Would be kind of cool to be able to directly hire a merc unit on top of a vamped up loyalist system. Right now, someone has to leave their unit, join the merc unit, donate, and then leave. No way to share the cost with other teammates. The new system would also not have to control mercs to harshly as a merc unit nobody will hire still needs a way to get fights.

As everyone is aware, everyone is technically a merc unit and the only thing differentiating a merc from a loyalist is the LP bonus.

The other problem for diehard loyalists is faster burnout. I don't think I would be willing to play one faction, IS, or Clan exclusively. After about 2-4 weeks I am ready to switch tech bases.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 25 July 2015 - 03:21 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 July 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

I'm sorry why would any Merc Company want to be restricted to 1 Battalion?

And how is it "fair"?

It would have to be for all units if PGI lowered the unit cap.

[TWIAFU]

Kin3ticX, on 25 July 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

Would be kind of cool to be able to directly hire a merc unit on top of a vamped up loyalist system. Right now, someone has to leave their unit, join the merc unit, donate, and then leave. No way to share the cost with other teammates. The new system would also not have to control mercs to harshly as a merc unit nobody will hire still needs a way to get fights.

As everyone is aware, everyone is technically a merc unit and the only thing differentiating a merc from a loyalist is the LP bonus.

The other problem for diehard loyalists is faster burnout. I don't think I would be willing to play one faction, IS, or Clan exclusively. After about 2-4 weeks I am ready to switch tech bases.

If it was not for the friends/family in my Unit I would have burnt out long ago.

Kin3ticX, on 25 July 2015 - 03:24 AM, said:

It would have to be for all units if PGI lowered the unit cap.

And we should have a min Unit limit of 4. Cannot go under that limit, period.

It's "fair"