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The Most Versatile Medium?


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#1 grendeldog

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 09:52 PM

So recently I have gotten into Wolverines. I greatly enjoyed the 6K's 3 LL penis-puncher fist, and the idea of a medium mech that can shoot 2 AC/5s virtually as fast as AC/2s (6R w/ quirks and cooldown module) is awesome too. But now that I got the last one - the 7K - I am beginning to think that out of all medium mech variants the WVR-7K takes the cake for the most versatile.

EDIT: To be impossibly specificly clear I am talking only about one specific variant. With Clan mechs you don't have variants per se because of omnipods so the comparison isn't valid since the WVR has locked hardpoints and the clan mechs do not. If you insist on including clan mechs, then refer to variants that have only stock omnipods.

I'm not talking about a chassis either. You could argue that the Hunchback has more diversity, but that is counting all of its variants.

I'm talking out of one single variant. Like all possible WVR-7K builds against all possible HBK-4J builds (which is a contender for versatility as well).

Look at all of this:

All-rounder - XL275, 5 JJ, 1 LPL, 2 MPL, 2 SRM6 + 4t ammo. This was my first build, and I still think it's a legit thing. You have the longer range of the LPL for when the enemy is staying at range. But then once the fight begins, alternate between LPL, MPL and your 12 damage SRM blast. When you see a component that's red, LPL it; when you see a bunch of components that are orange, SRM them. When there's incoming fire, jump into the air to tank with your legs, and you can also spin in mid-air to spread damage evenly around the mech.

This build trades the MPLs in for ML, allowing the aSRM6 instead of SRM6 for the spread reduction advantage. You can even go one further by taking the LPL out for a LL, allowing an XL295 instead of 275. And then you still can have either one more ton of aSRM ammo, two more JJ, or one of each. Or for those without Radar Derp-Perversion who are unsure about their ability to use cover you could use that last ton for an AMS + a half ton of AMS ammo.

Mid-range brawl capable - XL275, 2 JJ, 2 LPL, 1 ML, 2 SRM6 + 2.5t ammo. The right side is crit padded out since other than an SRM6, there's nothing on the left side, enabling you to use it as a shield of sorts. I only put that little ammo because the SRMs are for if you end up in a brawl; mostly you'd stay just to the edge of the engagement and LPL people. This removes an SRM6 for much better heat efficiency, better jumping and an MPL instead of an ML in the head.

The idea is to stay further out and primarily use the LPLs from a place that is difficult to reach without the greater number of JJ, and then if enemies get close to you SRM and MPL them to make your escape. You could theoretically remove the SRMs and replace with LRMs, for a longer-range direct and indirect fire-support mech, but that reduces the cooldown and range quirks to 10% (all missiles) from 20% (SRM6 only).

LRMverine - XL275, 3 LRM10 + 7t ammo, 3 ML. This takes that LRM idea and runs with it. You'd want to stay back from the brawl - 400 to 500 meters or so - dumping LRMs into the enemy. Therefor you need no JJs, and you have 3 ML to fend off lights. You could trade 2t ammo to put 2 MPLs into the arm instead of 2 ML.

Also, eFTy posted below and said he wants a TAG in the head instead of ML - almost certainly a good idea. That said, there are likely mechs that would do this better. So if you want LRMs but still want to make use of the WVR chassis... I bring you the next build:

Wolvserpport - XL275, 2 JJ, 2 ERLL, 3 aLRM5 + 5t ammo. eFTy had a point about TAG, so here's that build. Pure and simple long range direct and direct fire-support. The head laser was removed in favor of two JJs, so that you might have a better chance of reaching certain spots for ERLL sniping that a mech without jets might not be able to find. That's a toss up though, up to each player. Likewise you could go 2 LL instead of 2 ERLL for heat reasons.

In this build I say engage stuff within 750m (10% missile range quirk) with the LRMs as you move into position. Then once you have line of sight go ahead with those lasers. Try to strip armor with the LRMs and then hit the open components with the lasers. The 12.5% laser duration reduction quirk isn't anything crazy, but it does help you pump damage faster from a sniping position, so as to reposition that much faster.

Finally we have the Wolverbrawl - XL295, 5 JJ, 3 MPL 3 SRM + 4t ammo. 86.9 kph, and 95.6 kph with speed tweak. This thing is a monster. You can close the range to the enemy much more quickly with the larger engine in order to bring your close-range weapons to bear. With MPL range module and quirks, you have an optimum range of 272 m, max range 544 m. With SRM6 quirks and cooldown and range modules you have 356 meters on range and a cooldown of 2.88 seconds (2.74 s with fast fire efficiency unlocked). Due to quirks you can twist 25% faster than would otherwise be the case, and you can jump 35m to tank with your legs.

You could also drop one or two JJ for either a half ton or a whole ton more SRM6 ammo f you want; personally I find that the high jumping and jump-spinning is crucial to being able to brawl despite the XL engine as well as for jump-snipe alpha poptarting (MPL duration is so short that you'll be able to get most of the beam duration on target while your missiles fly towards that target provided you fire the MPLs just before you reach your jump apogee and your missiles just as you begin to drop back down.

I am loving this last build - it is just a vicious beast. And this coming from somebody who doesn't like SRMs due to the short range and ammo considerations! I highly suggest giving te last build a try f you only try one of the builds listed above.

--

Anyway, thoughts on these builds? Do you agree or disagree that this is the most versatile single variant of any medium mech? Do you agree that it's a bit of a sleeper that not many people talk well about / is rarely seen on the field? I'm interested to see what people have to say!

Edited by grendeldog, 25 May 2015 - 12:44 PM.


#2 Bows3r

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 10:27 PM

The Stormcrow is more versatile BY FAR. Any one of those builds can be run on the Stormcrow with better hitboxes, and more speed, for the same tonnage. The JumpJets on the Wolverine just don't make up for Its deficiencies when compared to the Stormcrow.

#3 grendeldog

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 02:26 AM

View PostBows3r, on 24 May 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

The Stormcrow is more versatile BY FAR. Any one of those builds can be run on the Stormcrow with better hitboxes, and more speed, for the same tonnage. The JumpJets on the Wolverine just don't make up for Its deficiencies when compared to the Stormcrow.

Nah, you're misunderstanding - and I may just be unclear. I am talking about a specific variant. With Clan mechs you don't have variants per se because of omnipods. If you insist on including clan mechs, then refer to variants that have only stock omnipods.

I'm not talking about a chassis either. You could argue that the Hunchback has more diversity, but that is counting all of its variants.

I'm talking out of one single variant. Like all possible WVR-7K builds against all possible HBK-4J builds (which is a contender for versatility as well).

#4 eFTy

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 03:20 AM

The Wolverine was my first medium and is still among my favourites. I do feel that it is necessary to add that, when running LRMs, it needs a TAG in the head slot. It's simply too good a hardpoint to waste on a ML, and ECM is too prevalent to leave it home. Also, a few jump jets are good, so you can move to better positions (otherwise terrain will sometimes block your LRMs) and to GTFO quick when enemies get close.

#5 grendeldog

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 09:33 AM

View PosteFTy, on 25 May 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

The Wolverine was my first medium and is still among my favourites. I do feel that it is necessary to add that, when running LRMs, it needs a TAG in the head slot. It's simply too good a hardpoint to waste on a ML, and ECM is too prevalent to leave it home. Also, a few jump jets are good, so you can move to better positions (otherwise terrain will sometimes block your LRMs) and to GTFO quick when enemies get close.

Excellent advice - I'm glad you chimed in because I am not a lurm-dude. So my LRM builds up there are simply for the purpose of showing that it can match the firepower of larger lurm boats, not to suggest those actual builds because I don't have an intuitive feel for how to put an ideal LRMS loadout together.

Thanks for adding to the discussion dude!

#6 Bows3r

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 04:41 PM

But that's the thing, since the Stormcrow can have any Omni-pod at any time. That as such makes it superior to the one Wolverine variant mentioned in the OP, because any Stormcrow can mix and match to make any build it wants with the hardpoints on the Omni-pods, and this can be done on all variants of the Stormcrow, thus making it the more versatile variant.

#7 grendeldog

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 05:40 PM

View PostBows3r, on 25 May 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

But that's the thing, since the Stormcrow can have any Omni-pod at any time. That as such makes it superior to the one Wolverine variant mentioned in the OP, because any Stormcrow can mix and match to make any build it wants with the hardpoints on the Omni-pods, and this can be done on all variants of the Stormcrow, thus making it the more versatile variant.

I mean I definitely see the point you're making - almost any omnimech will be more versatile than a given IS variant. The thing is that in my mind the Crow is a chassis, as opposed to the Prime, C, D, etc., each being a separate variant. The comparison isn't valid.

If I could pick and choose components from more than one WVR variant I'm sure that would be super effective. But I can't, so the WVR is not really comparable to a mech where I can switch around components - and therefor hardpoints.

As I said I get where you're coming from; with switched omnipods the SCR is in fact probably more versatile. But if you look at a SCR where the build is custom but the omnipods are stock for whatever variant is in question, I would argue the WVR-7K would be the more flexible.

If you insist on comparing IS battlemechs to Clan omnimechs I can change the thread title to 'most versatile IS medium. But I don't think the distinction is that hard to make or understand - nothing personal, just how I see it.

#8 Tesunie

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 05:46 PM

The most versatile chassis would probably be the Hunchback. Having a variant for every occasion. Out of all of them, the Grid Iron is the most versatile, having hard points for all weapon types.

Beyond that, it's probably going to be a preference thing about play styles and opinions. Of course, I also don't exactly own all the medium mechs in the game either...

#9 Skarlock

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 06:03 PM

Versatility isn't that important IMO for performance because a specialist does the job better with either specialized gear setups or superior, specialized quirks. You can't change your mech mid match nor can you change its loadout. You can't even change it once you get the map you're fighting on for CW, you can only change the entire mech in your drop deck.

If you're on a budget though, and prefer mediums, and want to experiment with as many weapons as possible then I guess this type of versatility would matter. That's the only case really. If you change your load out too much you will just end up buying a bunch of different engines and wasting money toggling upgrades on and off for when you need ferro and when you don't.

Due to it's quirks, I'd give an honorable mention to the Enforcer 4R. Jump jet capable, can boat large lasers, or ac/10 and medium lasers, or if you want even a gauss rifle and ppc if that's what you prefer. The generic quirks apply to all weapons so you still get some rather nice bonuses even if you go off type on the ballistic or energy weapons, but it does best with either an AC/10 + medium lasers, or large lasers (doesn't really have the tonnage to support both well IMO, so just do one or the other).

Edited by Skarlock, 25 May 2015 - 06:04 PM.


#10 grendeldog

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 06:28 PM

View PostTesunie, on 25 May 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

The most versatile chassis would probably be the Hunchback. Having a variant for every occasion. Out of all of them, the Grid Iron is the most versatile, having hard points for all weapon types.

Beyond that, it's probably going to be a preference thing about play styles and opinions. Of course, I also don't exactly own all the medium mechs in the game either...

I'm not talkin about a chassis, as in HBK vs WVR. I'm talking variants, like WVR-7K vs HBK-4X, where X is whatever letter.

So there's not a single Hunch other than the 4J - and I own almost every one - that comes close to the WVR-7K as far as versatility. And between those two I would say WVR-7K, but it could well be a tie between the two since they can both do las, SRM, and LRM.

View PostSkarlock, on 25 May 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

Versatility isn't that important IMO for performance because a specialist does the job better with either specialized gear setups or superior, specialized quirks. You can't change your mech mid match nor can you change its loadout. You can't even change it once you get the map you're fighting on for CW, you can only change the entire mech in your drop deck.

I'm not talking versatility as in jack of all trades in a single build. I'm talking how many focused, specialized builds can be made out of a single variant from a single chassis. Just to be clear in case I did not explain myself well.

Quote

If you're on a budget though, and prefer mediums, and want to experiment with as many weapons as possible then I guess this type of versatility would matter. That's the only case really. If you change your load out too much you will just end up buying a bunch of different engines and wasting money toggling upgrades on and off for when you need ferro and when you don't.[/b]
Except none of those things apply to me: not the budget, not the putting as many different weapons on a build as possible, none of it. Versatility doesn't mean how many random different weapons can I fit on a mech, it means how many focused builds can I get out of a single variant. So with the 7K you have a super-fast and nimble SRM18 3 MPL brawler, you can have a 1 MPL 2 LPL-focused mid-range skirmisher ou can have long-range direct laser fire support, long-range indirect fire LRM support, and even a las + LRMS direct and indirect fire support build. Those are all focused on a single task.

[b]Due to it's quirks, I'd give an honorable mention to the Enforcer 4R. Jump jet capable, can boat large lasers, or ac/10 and medium lasers, or if you want even a gauss rifle and ppc if that's what you prefer. The generic quirks apply to all weapons so you still get some rather nice bonuses even if you go off type on the ballistic or energy weapons, but it does best with either an AC/10 + medium lasers, or large lasers (doesn't really have the tonnage to support both well IMO, so just do one or the other).

This is what I mean, and this is an excellent contribution to the subject I was hoping to discuss - a single variant of a single chassis that can fit into a lot of diverse roles - focused roles - by switching up the build.

I don't have any ENF, so I will definitely check them out. When I have spe gated some folks in Endorcers they looked like a lot of fun!

Edited by grendeldog, 25 May 2015 - 06:31 PM.


#11 Tesunie

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 06:29 PM

View PostSkarlock, on 25 May 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

...

Due to it's quirks, I'd give an honorable mention to the Enforcer 4R. Jump jet capable, can boat large lasers, or ac/10 and medium lasers,...


I'd just like to mention, my more balanced builds have preformed very well in game. The key with a more balance build vs a more focused build is to force the focused build outside it's specialty, where suddenly the more balanced build is stronger.

As this isn't a common skill, and most players would rather just try to just keep everything within their focus (which is easier, I will admit), thus they "boat" one type of weapon. (Basically, I agree that a specialist mech tends to out preform a generalist mech, as it's easier to try and force others into your strength and avoid your own weaknesses. But, don't discredit generalist builds either. They do have their strengths as well.)


As for the Enforcer 4R's abilities, I do have a build that uses both LLs and an AC10. It's a little light on ammo, I'll give. But, it does preform very well, and uses that AC10 while cooling off. Just have to make your shots count, and not just spam them. (Then again, what works for me doesn't work for everyone. I'm also an odd duck with mech construction.)

#12 Tesunie

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 07:18 PM

View Postgrendeldog, on 25 May 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

I'm not talkin about a chassis, as in HBK vs WVR. I'm talking variants, like WVR-7K vs HBK-4X, where X is whatever letter.

So there's not a single Hunch other than the 4J - and I own almost every one - that comes close to the WVR-7K as far as versatility. And between those two I would say WVR-7K, but it could well be a tie between the two since they can both do las, SRM, and LRM.


Did you read what I posted? I covered Chassis flexibility, as well as a specific variant.

And I feel that the 4J is not the most flexible variant of the Hunchback. That would either go to the Grid Iron (has at least one hard point of each weapon type), as well as the 4SP would be a better, more even, choice between the 4J and the 4SP.


Out of all of that, the Shadowhawk would take this cake. Not only (once again) variants that can do a good variety, but the 2D2 has it all. Good missile hard points, with decent energy and a ballistic slot. This gives it the option to make a build around an AC20 or Gauss with support weapons. It can go LRM or SRM boating. It can also go with a bit of heavy energy (which can mix well with SRMs or a mid sized AC).


This topic is very broad. There are lots of medium mechs that can fall under your description. It depends upon what you are asking for here...

#13 grendeldog

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 07:22 PM

View PostTesunie, on 25 May 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:


I'd just like to mention, my more balanced builds have preformed very well in game. The key with a more balance build vs a more focused build is to force the focused build outside it's specialty, where suddenly the more balanced build is stronger.

As this isn't a common skill, and most players would rather just try to just keep everything within their focus (which is easier, I will admit), thus they "boat" one type of weapon. (Basically, I agree that a specialist mech tends to out preform a generalist mech, as it's easier to try and force others into your strength and avoid your own weaknesses. But, don't discredit generalist builds either. They do have their strengths as well.)

As for the Enforcer 4R's abilities, I do have a build that uses both LLs and an AC10. It's a little light on ammo, I'll give. But, it does preform very well, and uses that AC10 while cooling off. Just have to make your shots count, and not just spam them. (Then again, what works for me doesn't work for everyone. I'm also an odd duck with mech construction.)

As for forcing specialized mechs outside their comfort zone there is nothing more pleasing than cornering an IS missile boat and watching those missiles bounce off.

Furthermore, you can even push people out of their comfort zones as far as the environment. Case in point, the new CW map (Vitric Forge) is pretty hot, so if you are IS and you can get into clanners' faces you'll get them to shut down left and right from overheating.

#14 grendeldog

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 08:23 PM

View PostTesunie, on 25 May 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:


Did you read what I posted? I covered Chassis flexibility, as well as a specific variant.

And I feel that the 4J is not the most flexible variant of the Hunchback. That would either go to the Grid Iron (has at least one hard point of each weapon type), as well as the 4SP would be a better, more even, choice between the 4J and the 4SP.


Out of all of that, the Shadowhawk would take this cake. Not only (once again) variants that can do a good variety, but the 2D2 has it all. Good missile hard points, with decent energy and a ballistic slot. This gives it the option to make a build around an AC20 or Gauss with support weapons. It can go LRM or SRM boating. It can also go with a bit of heavy energy (which can mix well with SRMs or a mid sized AC).


This topic is very broad. There are lots of medium mechs that can fall under your description. It depends upon what you are asking for here...

Yes, I was quite specific about my asking about specific variants alone.

But, I am not gonna argue with you - I've seen you around the forums and you seem like a decent guy from what posts of yours I have read. So I'll chalk it up to my not being clear enough in my OP and you perhaps misunderstanding what I was talking about. No harm done!

#15 Lord Letto

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 08:23 PM

I ended up going for the Trebs as my medium, as for most Versatile variant, possibly the -7K as it got 2 of each hardpoint:
Build 1: 2xSRM6 with 4t Ammo & 2 LPL with XL 285 Engine (92.3kph, 101.6kph with ST): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c85bbf54d7da8ef

Build 2: Replaces 1 LPL for a LL and allows Dual Arty 6 packs: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c85bbf54d7da8ef

Build 3: Replaces the other LPL with a LL for engine Upgrade to XL300 (97.2kph, 106.9kph with ST) (or also Reduce ASRM ammo by 1/2t to fit a XL305 for a speed of 98.8kph or 108.7 with ST): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c07ff5b27f8211c

Build 4: 2xLRM 15s with 6t ammo and 2xML with a DHS and XL 300: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fa8ae32eff4fb38

Build 5: 2xALRM 5 with 5t ammo, ERPPC & TAG with 1 DHS & a XL 320 (103.7 kph, 114kph with ST): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...80947287e552f43

Build 6: replaces ERPPC & TAG with 2x ERLL, remove Extra DHS, Cut ALRM ammo by 1 1/2t to fit a XL325 (Biggest engine for it, 105.3kph, 115.8kph with ST): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bb967a43c18f242

Build 7: 2x SRM 6 with 4t ammo, LPL & ML, AMS With 1t Ammo and a XL 325: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b50af33732018e2

Build 8: AC 10 with 2t ammo and 2xLL With a XL 285: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a6f9b98fd59f73f

#16 Tesunie

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 08:25 PM

View Postgrendeldog, on 25 May 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

Yes, I was quite specific about my asking about specific variants alone.


Sorry if I snapped. I hurt my back, so to say I'm not in the best of moods... (When you are in pain, your patients gets short.)

#17 grendeldog

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 10:47 PM

View PostTesunie, on 25 May 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:


Sorry if I snapped. I hurt my back, so to say I'm not in the best of moods... (When you are in pain, your patients gets short.)

All is forgiven - back pain or not - because I got hot tempered too. So O apologize for getting snippy myself.

I hope you heal quickly and that you feel better soon!

#18 jss78

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 11:08 PM

In the hypothetical event that I was stuck with a single mech for the rest of my MWO career ... say stranded in the Deep Periphery ... I think I'd take my SHD-2D. (The 2D2 would do just as well.)

With JJ, three energy hardpoints, three missile hardpoints, and that wonderful shoulder-mounted ballistic, I think it can fill lots of roles passably. Even the quirks are kind of weak and generic and don't really compel any specific cookie-cutter build. (IMO this is the way quirks should always be.)

Edited by jss78, 25 May 2015 - 11:28 PM.


#19 Templar Dane

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:26 AM

Hunchback

It brawls, it snipes, it lurms, it vomits.

Edited by lordtzar, 26 May 2015 - 01:27 AM.


#20 FlipOver

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:31 AM

I've got Centurions, ShadowHawks and BlackJacks and somehow I feel teh Hunchback is one of the most versatile mech around.
It might actually be my best medium to buy but I'm still trying to understand if the HBK is good just because of quirks or not.





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