88 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

I would file a report on you and/or Johnny because you were both descending to the level of insulting each other, calling each other children.

I'll admit you were handling yourself better than Johnny, but you were still toeing the line, and that's often justification enough for some people.



Johnny, I'll say it one last time. Cool it. The fact that you've now descended to throwing the T word around is grounds enough for me to file a complaint on you.

I'm giving you one chance to take a step back and cool your head. If I see another adversarial or antagonistic comment from you, I'll report you.

[Redacted]

Edited by Rhazien, 28 June 2015 - 04:47 AM.
Nonconstructive

[Xetelian]

One Medic Army, on 27 June 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

The odds have, in fact, decreased.

Harmony Gold has a larger warchest, and they will believe the worth of the "Robotech" IP is higher.

I hereby urge everyone to boycott the Robotech movie, rather than let HG profit off if it. (Also since HG is involved in production, it will most likely be freaking terrible)

I don't boycott things I wasn't ever planning to pay for.

[Andi Nagasia]

Come on Guys please Try to Focus on the Topic,
(Happened Across this Topic and Noticed InFighting),

can we all get back to the Topic?
can we Blame HG? Yes,... can we Blame Fasa? Yes,
they Both should have taken a higher standing on what happened,

i think HG is scared that if they let some of their Presence slip they may lose it,
they have held the US Rights to RoboTech for a long time, even when it went past its time,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 27 June 2015 - 08:08 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Andi Nagasia, on 27 June 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Come on Guys please Try to Focus on the Topic,
(Happened Across this Topic and Noticed InFighting),

can we all get back to the Topic?
can we Blame HG? Yes,... can we Blame Fasa? Yes,
they Both should have taken a higher standing on what happened,

i think HG is scared that if they let some of their Presence slip they may lose it,
they have held the US Rights to RoboTech for a long time, even when it went past its time,
Edit-

The unfortunate truth is that HG will always be a sore-spot in the craw of the BT/MW community, and it will often bring out the worst in people.

Yes, Fasa apparently didn't acquire the visuals in the proper way, but at the same time HG should have figured that having similar visuals in both BT/MW and Robotech, might actually have increased the popularity of both franchises.

They should have worked with Fasa to visually differentiate the designs, in particular the Stinger, LAMs, Rifleman, Warhammer and Marauder, as those had literally nothing changed about them.

The Wasp had a couple minor changes, as did the Valkyrie and Phoenix Hawk.

The Ostscout, Ostsol and Ostroc were quite different from their Macross Battlepod counterparts, which is why they were eventually allowed to be used in either their original Unseen, or updated Reseen versions.

[LastKhan]

I honestly feel like PGI should just rebuild them from the ground up and get rid of this dark cloud that is HG forever. I know it wont be the same but do we really want to go "oh wish we can play them but.. harmony derp gold" Im sure alex can work his magic and concoct something worthy of the names.

Edited by LastKhan, 27 June 2015 - 08:54 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

The unfortunate truth is that HG will always be a sore-spot in the craw of the BT/MW community, and it will often bring out the worst in people.

If you think the MW/BT community hates HG, you ought to see the Macross fan community. So many games and series that will never see the light of day on the North American continent.

[Lightfoot]

Make some replacement mechs that look different, but preserve the spirit of the Unseen. Just offset the weapons and cockpits, etc. Or forget it because it's been too long. If any change was going to happen it would have. Trademark law generally solidifies rights with longer use and fades with disuse so it would be a tougher battle now than 20 years ago.

[Vanguard836]

Lightfoot, on 27 June 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

Make some replacement mechs that look different, but preserve the spirit of the Unseen. Just offset the weapons and cockpits, etc. Or forget it because it's been too long. If any change was going to happen it would have. Trademark law generally solidifies rights with longer use and fades with disuse so it would be a tougher battle now than 20 years ago.

They did that [change some aspects of the mech] with the old 2009 Mechwarrior trailer and still got some heat from HG. As much as I'd like to see those mechs in game I think it's a topic that's likely to get nowhere due to HG's stance.

[Scout Derek]

Vanguard836, on 27 June 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

They did that [change some aspects of the mech] with the old 2009 Mechwarrior trailer and still got some heat from HG. As much as I'd like to see those mechs in game I think it's a topic that's likely to get nowhere due to HG's stance.

Russ said something about changing their looks with some similiarities to the original design, but not many, and see how far HG would go to stopping them.

[Fang01]

One Medic Army, on 27 June 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

If you think the MW/BT community hates HG, you ought to see the Macross fan community. So many games and series that will never see the light of day on the North American continent.

This. A million times this.

It makes me sick seeing so many folks who know a great show solely but the *****, edited to hell, kiddy crap version. I'd kill to see DYRL in theatres. just once.

[One Medic Army]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 27 June 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

This. A million times this.

It makes me sick seeing so many folks who know a great show solely but the *****, edited to hell, kiddy crap version. I'd kill to see DYRL in theatres. just once.

I just wish we could get some of the damn games outside Japan. I've played some, and they can be pretty awesome. At least the shows/movies can be found online subbed.

[Fang01]

On the bright side their dirtbag founder and ceo is 85 and has to be knocking on the grave soon, one would think that would shake things up a bit

One Medic Army, on 27 June 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

I just wish we could get some of the damn games outside Japan. I've played some, and they can be pretty awesome. At least the shows/movies can be found online subbed.

The PSP games were friggin great! Hell, they even got Fukuyama-san to reprise his role as Basara and crank out a whole new Fire Bomber album for the second one.

Edited by Khajja nar Jatargk, 27 June 2015 - 10:43 PM.

[SkyHammyr]

I've given up on the "Unseens" coming to MWO.
Instead, I now have:
Hellbringer = Warhammer
Ebon Jaguar = Marauder
Mad Dog =(Sort Of) Archer

And, I'm good with that.

[Smokeyhavoc]

Just to clear a few things up here about the ip on the unseen:
I refer you to this post by Empath:

Posted 01 September 2012 - 12:50 AM
I can't vote in this poll since the option of my choice isn't present:

"I prefer whatever artistic redesign 'Flying Debris' decides to make to the 'unseen' loadouts to make them uniquely suitable for MW:O"

FWIW, as a BattleDroids player, I will say most of the Original Fourteen are really sub-par designs with muddled loadouts (Shadow Hawk aka "Jack of all Ranges, Master of None" anyone?)

If I were involved with IGP/PGI, I would ONLY consider delving into such risky waters to include these designs in this F2P MMO would be with expressed written permission from Harmony Gold that the artwork we would use is not in infringement of their licensing of Studio Nue's artwork. Ironically, said permission could only be obtained by SUBMITTING FD's reworked art to HarmGold, and opening PGI/IGP up to a potential cease & desist from HG.

Also, the amount of misinformation regarding this whole legal mess makes me sad.

Okay:

1) Studio Nue creates artwork for some giant robots in preparation for use in some still-undefined animated show,
2) FASA, needing artwork of giant robots (and this being the '80s the ONLY source is Japan), licenses the artwork for "creation and advertising of model kits in the United States" through a now-defunct intermediary, Twentieth Century Imports,
3) Studio Nue creates Super Dimension Fortress Macross, using the artwork in #1 - in exchange for financial assistance during its creation, S.Nue signs over ALL international licensing of SDF Macross to Tatsunoko Production
{this is where it gets interesting}
4) a. 1984-Harmony Gold licenses SDF Macross (as well as two other unrelated Studio Nue anime shows) from Tatsunoko for USA distribution,
4) b. 1984-FASA seeks to expand their license through TCI...and nothing seems to get done by the latter before they end up closing shop,
5) HG frankensteins the three shows together to create Robotech,
6) HG dominates - ****, CREATES - the fledgling US anime market with its flagship property,
7) FASA grows its BattleTech property beyond its licensed origins, and the Clan Invasion introduces a major change to the in-game milieu with in-house art and designs,
8) FASA begins to consider diversifying beyond the boardgame (and associated rulebooks and storyline novels), and enters talks with Playmates Toys about creating spin-off products based on BattleTech's Clan 'Mechs,
9) Playmates thinks things over, then turns FASA down,
10) 1993 - Playmates works with Universal Cartoon Studios to 'get an American share' of the Japanese anime market, and releases EXO Squad...including some artwork and toy designs that BLATANTLY infringe on FASA's Clan 'Mechs,
11) 1993 - FASA files suit against Playmates,
12) Playmates already has business dealings with Harmony Gold and latter notices similarities between old BT designs and designs from SDF MacrossRobotech
13) 1995 - Harmony Gold files suit against FASA regarding the dubious status of FASA's licensing Studio Nue's artwork,
14) Playmates moves for the suit lodged against them by FASA be reassigned and consolidated with HG's suit against FASA,
15) legal shennangians (motions to change venue for suit, appeals to higher courts, etc.) go on for many, many billable hours, before getting denied,
16) 1996 - Judge Castillo in original suit of FASA v. Playmates finds in FASA's favour, and orders Playmates to cease production and sale of the offending products...and attaches NO financial compensation to/from either party,
14) both Playmates and FASA are left financially weakened after this lawsuit,
16) FASA, gun-shy after getting shafted and placed in a crippling fiscal state from winning a three-year court battle, and looking down the barrels of ANOTHER lawsuit which does NOT look like a 'cut and dried' win for them, panics and purges ALL out-of-house artwork (including non-Studio Nue artwork like Crusher Joe and Dougram),
17) FASA takes Harmony Gold into closed meetings to settle matters out-of-court,
18) No one involved says JACK about this settlement.

That's essentially everything up to about 2003, with Operation Phoenix and the Reseen.


Also of note: that fun stuff regarding 'illegitimate' licenses going from Studio Nue -> ??? -> TCI -> FASA?
Around 2002, Japanese courts ruled that FASA was in the right...and to clearly illustrate the quagmire that the legal system is, this ruling has NO bearing on any legal proceedings in the U.S. or anywhere else outside Japan.


tl;dr? Anything involving lawyers is going to leave you broke, even if you win. Right, Gwyd?
Edited by empath, 01 September 2012 - 12:53 AM.

(sorry I don't know how to do forum quotes)

Edited by Smokeyhavoc, 28 June 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[Appogee]

Mecrutio, on 27 June 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

I know I and many other players would pay an obscene amount of money for a pack involving the Phoenix Hawk, Warhammer, Maurader, Archer and/or Rifleman.

I'd pay an obscene amount of money for a decent MechWarrior game with reliable hitreg, deep immersion in the lore and a strategic campaign mode.

Actually, I already did pay an obscene amount of money for that. Now I have 120 Mechs, but still crap hitreg, little immersion and a strategic campaign mode which is still in search of a reason for its own existence.

So, no, I couldn't give a cr4p about more Mechs. I want a better game in which to use my Mechs.

[Lord Ikka]

Bottom line is this- unless Russ pulls off some sort of insane Jedi mind-trick on HG, we won't see the Unseen in MWO. No matter the crazy amounts of money that fans would spend, the risks aren't worth it for PGI.

The Facts:
1. HG will sue if someone uses the Unseen artwork or names for a commercial reason.
2. The cost of fighting the suit would be more than the profit from the Mech packs for PGI.
3. The new Robotech movie gives HG a lot of firepower, as they will have both the licensing funds for the movie itself and, potentially, a new line of movie-inspired toys.
4. HG has been notoriously reluctant to deal with anybody/anything related to BT/MW after the lawsuits in the 90s.

[SpectreHD]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Because HG.

They claim that they own the rights to Macross, which I've heard people say they don't, but they've got enough money to throw around to make it seem like they do, and it's basically one big cesspool at this point.

They could try going to the studio that owns Macross itself, but they might not be able to release it in the US because HG would drag it through the courts, because they own the distributions rights for Robotech, of which Macross is a part of, and that seems to be enough for them to say they own Macross.

What a mess. So we get screwed out of the Unseen mechs and fans of the anime Macross gets screwed out of being able to watch the series legally.

Wintersdark, on 27 June 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

There's a level of redesign where it'd be "legal", where they could argue that they're not copying the IP. The problem with IP law, though, is that it's ALL gray areas. So, just having the same name would be enough to potentially prompt a lawsuit, which PGI may or may not win, but the cost of the lawsuit would easily be higher than the profits from releasing the mechs even if they won.

It'd be foolish for PGI to release those mechs without HG's permission, because the risk of a lawsuit (and it's probable, but not garaunteed - who knows, HG may decide to be nice!) is basically gambling your companies future on some company being nice.

I'll admit, I'll watch it either way. I'm weak that way.

But we won't have the same names. But I guess even if they were to be redesigned, they'd share the same basic characteristics so it'd be open to copyright.

And yeah, I too will watch it because I grew up with Robotech before finding out about Macross and anime in general. But I would also hope it fails because HG as a company should not exist. All they are currently doing is milking the franchises they have licensed all the while not producing anything new or good.

Still, if Sony were to released the movie in Japan, I wonder how their domestic market would take to the butchering of one of Japan's and anime's most famous and influential series. Anime fans in Japan tend to be very vocal so I wonder how Sony will handle it.

[Lightfoot]

Isn't Harmony Gold using some variations of MechWarrior mechs? I am not familiar with them, but I seem to remember a thing that looked like a Mad Cat.

It's funny though because Copyright law is wide open to new creations, but when is a robot a special robot that is copyrighted and trademarked and how far does that extend? Does this mean if I make a Marauder with the top-gun offset and the arms raised higher (Ebon Jaguar-like) that I have infringed or created newness? I say the latter, but you begin to see there are a finite number of robot segment combinations and then we players change all the weapons. So if the names were changed and the segments shifted around trademarks would not be violated because that is name and identifiable appearances and a robot is like the alphabet or colors so it of itself is not copyrightable like Windows vs Folder Options but the original creations you make from the robot are.

Edited by Lightfoot, 28 June 2015 - 04:11 AM.

[GeistHrafn]

Almost off the rails there folks. Lets try and keep it civil and on topic. Carry on!

[Alan Davion]

Lightfoot, on 28 June 2015 - 03:55 AM, said:

Isn't Harmony Gold using some variations of MechWarrior mechs? I am not familiar with them, but I seem to remember a thing that looked like a Mad Cat.

It's funny though because Copyright law is wide open to new creations, but when is a robot a special robot that is copyrighted and trademarked and how far does that extend? Does this mean if I make a Marauder with the top-gun offset and the arms raised higher (Ebon Jaguar-like) that I have infringed or created newness? I say the latter, but you begin to see there are a finite number of robot segment combinations and then we players change all the weapons. So if the names were changed and the segments shifted around trademarks would not be violated because that is name and identifiable appearances and a robot is like the alphabet or colors so it of itself is not copyrightable like Windows vs Folder Options but the original creations you make from the robot are.

You've got it a bit backwards there.

HG bought/licensed anime from Japan to create an anime/cartoon series in the US. Fasa bought/licensed certain visuals from one of those same anime in order to create an RPG/Wargame in the US, using only the visuals and changing the way they worked in order to fit into the universe they were creating.

Fasa it seems bought those visuals from a company that didn't have the right to sell those visuals in the first place. Even though they eventually won on part of their original suit, it basically was a financial *****-slap and forced Fasa to settle with HG and drop the mechs, creating the "Unseen Incident" until quite a few years later and the original "Project Phoenix" with the new "Reseen" mechs.

Also, hey Smokeyhavoc.